S4's Ammo Tweak for T5

[Supplement Four]

S4's Ammo Tweak for T5

I saw today that Rob wrote that T5 doesn't have any sort of ammo tracking buriend within the rules somewhere. That's actually pretty disappointing to me. I don't necessarily need to count every bullet, but I do want some sort of mechanisim where I know when a character has run out of ammo. I'm betting there's a lot of Traveller fans out there who feel the same way. It baffles me how something like this could be completely ignored in the T5 rules, especially when the game is so detailed in other areas (Big, detailed rule sections for MAKING weapons, but nothing about ammo expenditure!).

I've been thinking about a tweak to add simple ammo tracking to the game. I have a couple of other ideas in posts #53, #54, and #58 of THIS THREAD.

T5 needs a simple ammo rule in keeping with the abstract one minute combat round. I'm going to list below the direction that I'm thinking about this, and I welcome tweaks or improvement ideas to make the rule better.




DESIGN THOUGHTS

Since T5 uses an abstract one-minute combat round, we don't need a detailed rule that would count each and every bullet fired from a weapon. I don't want a rule that forces bookeeping on the GM and players.

All we really need is a simple rule that removes magazines on an average basis. We remove mags from the character's inventory based on his rate of fire and the size of the ammo clip.

Page 248 of T5 gives us general information on ammunition and magazines, along with some examples. One thing that I think really should be added to the game (GunMaker) is a description of how many rounds the weapon can hold in one mag. As it stands now, it looks like it's up to the GM to determine this information. And, I think some general ideas of magazine weight should be listed, as well.







S4's Ammo Tweak

Every three combat rounds** (every three minutes, there abouts) magazines are discarded from a character's inventory. This means that, during most engagements, ammo will only be addressed once or twice during the combat.

Ammo Usage will be addressed at the end of the Attack phase on the appropriate round.

Ammo Usage: On round 3, round 6, round 9, etc.

Aimed Fire: If a character uses Aimed Fire, or does not fire at all (but uses Aimed Fire in at least one combat round), for all three preceding rounds, then mark off one ammo magazine*.

SnapFire: If a character uses SnapFire or a mixture of SnapFire and Aimed Fire during the three preceding rounds, then mark off two magazines*.

AutoFire: If a character uses AutoFire at any time during the three preceding combat rounds, then mark off three magazines*.



*This is based on a 15 round magazine. Adjust ammo usage by the size of the magazine of the weapon that is used.

For example, if a character is using a revolver that holds 6 rounds, and that character uses Aimed Fire in rounds one and two, but did not attack in round three, then normally the character would mark off 1 magazine per the rule above. But since the weapon holds 6 bullets, that's about half of 15, the character would double his ammo expenditure, making off 2 magazines (6-round revolver speed loaders).

In another example, let's say that a character is using an automatic rifle that has a 30 round magazine. If the character uses AutoFire in any of the three rounds, then he would mark off two magazines in the Ammo Usage phase during combat round three (the 30 round mag is twice the 15 round mag tha the rule was based upon, thus ammo expenditure is halved, and I rounded up).



**If a combat lasts one or two rounds, then review Ammo Usage on the last combat round, otherwise, review Ammo Usage only every three rounds.

For example, if a combat only lasts one round, then review Ammo Useage that round.

If a combat lasts five combat rounds, review Ammo Useage on round three only (not round five).








Simple Examples

Weapon: Advanced Magnum Revolver-8 with 32 round spiral magazine (see page 236 T5).

Round 1: Aimed Fire

Round 2: Does not attack--performs a different action.

Round 3: SnapFire

Round 3 Ammo Usage: Remove 1 magazine.





Weapon: Gauss Rifle-12 with 100 round bullet reservoir. (See page 236 T5.)

Round 1: AutoFire.

Round 2: AutoFire.

Round 3: AutoFire.

Round 3 Ammo Usage: No magazine removed. About half the magazine depleted.





Weapon: 8mm Battle Rifle with 10 round magazine. (See page 248 T5.)

Round 1: Aimed Fire.

Round 2: SnapFire.

Round 3: AutoFire.

Round 3 Ammo Usage: Remove 6 magazines.





Weapon: 8mm Battle Rifle with 20 round magazine. (See page 248 T5.)

Round 1: No fire - round used to aim.

Round 2: Aimed Fire.

Round 3: SnapFire.

Round 3 Ammo Usage: 2 magazines used.





Weapon: 8mm Battle Rifle with 30 round magazine. (See page 248 T5.)

Round 1: No fire. Instead used round to operate vehicle computer.

Round 2: Aimed Fire.

Round 3: Aimed Fire.

Round 3 Ammo Usage: No magazines removed--used about half a clip.







WHAT THIS RULE NEEDS!

We need standard (average) weight (or burden) for magazine clips. A few, generic magazine types should do. GMs can customize as needed. This will keep characters from carrying unbelieveable amounts of ammo magazines due to Load restrictions.





EDIT!

Further thoughts on this rule can be seen later in this thread in post #21 HERE, post #23 HERE, and post #30 HERE. Also look at post #31 HERE.

Post #36 presents an easy method, using the T5 Notation Style, for describing ammo useage on the weapon's description line.

Update GunMaker with two easy steps to include ammo in your weapon descriptions. See post #48 HERE.



.

 

[pendragonman]

then there is the whole AP vs DSAP vs Ball vs hollow points issues.

At least for the slug throwers anyway.

 

[Reban]

It looks workable. a couple of questions.

• Is there any reason you chose 15 rounds?
• Reading through the examples magazine use seems quite high, have you taken into account the time taken to swap out an old mag for new?
• Will this work for large caliber rounds like Ram Grenades and Missiles?

We need standard (average) weight (or burden) for magazine clips.

In my experience the average soldier carrying a rifle carries (or more correctly is issued with) 5 magazines of 20 to 30 rounds each, one in the weapon and four on the webbing. How about +1 to burden for every 5 magazines carried?

 

[Supplement Four]

then there is the whole AP vs DSAP vs Ball vs hollow points issues.

At least for the slug throwers anyway.

I'm not sure I know what you mean. Different weight of actual bullets?

If so, the system is not meant to be that granular. We've got a one minute combat round--very abstract. We just need to tick off some magazine clips every now and then.

It looks workable. a couple of questions.

• Is there any reason you chose 15 rounds?

If you've got a suggestion for a different size magazine to use for the base, lemme know. I chose a 15 round clip because I needed the system to be usable for both pistols and rifles.

Figure revolvers and small semi-autos have 6 round clips: That's about half of 15.

Most full sized auto pistols have 15 round clips, or there abouts.

And rifles usually have 20-30 round clips, which is about double 15.

15 seemed to be the best choice for a benchmark.

Reading through the examples magazine use seems quite high, have you taken into account the time taken to swap out an old mag for new?

Actually, I thought they were quite forgiving (with a thought put to how many clips a character is likely to carry). Remember, we're dealing with a one minute combat round. You could go through a mag or more, easily, in one minute, even on single fire!

And, I chose to check Ammo every three rounds because that would make it about once every combat (on average). Most combats don't last more than 5 rounds or so (at 5 rounds or less, there's only one Ammo check--that's at round 3). If they do, then checking every three combat is both easy to remember (3, 6, 9, 12, etc) and unobtrusive to gameplay.

So, since we're dealing with a one minute abstract combat round, even if you only use Aimed Fire once, like this:

Round 1: No fire. Do something else.

Round 2: No fire. Do something else.

Round 3: Aimed Fire.

It's still very logical and believeable that you went through about 15 rounds in that one minute of time.

You can also be more sparse with your ammo depletion:

Round 1: Aimed Fire.

Round 2: Aimed Fire.

Round 3: Aimed Fire.

You use up..again, about 15 rounds, firing, say, two shots in round one, seven shots in round 2, and five shots in round three.

We're just looking for something average...something easy-to-use in the game. Something that lets us know that we've used up all our ammo without getting to technical about exactly how much ammo we've used up.

Will this work for large caliber rounds like Ram Grenades and Missiles?

No. I think a much lower baseline should be used for RAM Grenades. Missiles are so large that I think that they can probably be counted exactly--like 1-3 misslies or so. Many missles are one-shot affairs anyway.

Large caliber rounds? Sure, it can work for some. I cold see a 50 cal. machine gun with a 500 round hopper used.

This weapon would be AutoFire only, of course. You probably wouldn't have to worry about changing this ammo out during a single fight.

In my experience the average soldier carrying a rifle carries (or more correctly is issued with) 5 magazines of 20 to 30 rounds each, one in the weapon and four on the webbing.

Sounds very resonable.

But, that average soldier doesn't go around using full auto all the time, right? Aren't they trained to conserve ammo?

Using the SnapShot rule above, this average soldier, with 5 30 round clips, would go through a clip about every 3 minutes.

Five clips would last him for 15 minutes, or so, of combat (actually, up to 17 minutes, given the rule).

And if the soldier used his weapon like a US Marine, not wasting any ammo, then he'd use Aimed Fire all the time, and his five 30 round clips would last him for 30 rounds (could sqeeze out 32 rounds)--that's half an hour of continuous combat.

But, if he's a spray-n-pray type of combatant, using full AutoFire all the time, his five 30 round clips will last for only about 9 or 11 minutes or so.

Does that sound about right?

How about +1 to burden for every 5 magazines carried?

I need to do some more reading about QREBS and the task system--only skimmed it at this point.

 

[pendragonman]

then there is the whole AP vs DSAP vs Ball vs hollow points issues.

At least for the slug throwers anyway.

Not weight or density, but combat impact. Damage ratings, how they affect what kinds of armor, etc.

 

[BytePro]

...I don't want a rule that forces bookeeping on the GM and players.

All we really need is a simple rule that removes magazines on an average basis. We remove mags from the character's inventory based on his rate of fire and the size of the ammo clip.
...
*This is based on a 15 round magazine. Adjust ammo usage by the size of the magazine of the weapon that is used.

For example, if a character is using a revolver ... holds 6 bullets, that's about half of 15, the character would double his ammo expenditure, making off 2 magazines (6-round revolver speed loaders).

In another example, let's say that a character is using an automatic rifle ... (the 30 round mag is twice the 15 round mag tha the rule was based upon, thus ammo expenditure is halved, and I rounded up).

Uhm ... yeah. The problem with one size fits all Combat Simu, er, Mechanics is that it doesn't.

Sometimes I want to know individual bullets, sometimes only mags or packs matter.
Sometimes combat actions reasonably occur in reaction time increments of fractions of a second, others its a drawn out affair some two orders of magnitude longer between notable actions.

On full auto, mags are likely to empty quick - and, tech dependent, barrels be ruined. (Suspect T5 ignores this fun bit of reality. )
Bursts used for effect vs bursts used for suppressive cover fire are gonna eat up mags at very different rates.
Combinations, such as running with suppressive/diversionary fire, but with an intended target for effect ala hitting a fuel line, have complex ammo implications (and lots of roleplay goodness).

Sorry I don't have any general purpose solutions to provide you. IMTU weapons of choice are not canon - i.e., mostly energy weapons with no set number of discharges, just readouts akin to modern 'your ink is low' readings. I use rolls and roleplaying for dramatic effect while avoiding the 'Rambo Unlimited Ammo Effect'. <shrug>

...We need standard (average) weight (or burden) for magazine clips.

Size mechanics in T5 should probably apply (Bulk).
Burden should have a similar scaling mechanic.

Even so a character, especially regards battledress/augmented, can carry quite an arsenal, 'believably'. The real question - how safe do you think it is to engage in a gunfight as a walking munitions rack? :devil:

[Not to say the RAW provide for the ramifications of damage to support this...]

 

[Supplement Four]

Not weight or density, but combat impact. Damage ratings, how they affect what kinds of armor, etc.

I haven't looked at GunMaker. Isn't that addressed in the damage the weapon does?

From page 240, The SR-5 Survival Rifle does Bullet-3 damage. That's 3D damage, right? Heavy on penetration.

Also from that page, is the Revolver-4, doing Bullet-1 damage. That's 1D damage. Not a lot of penetration.

I'm assuming (having not read the GunMaker chapter), that if you want more of an armor piercing bullet, then you increase damage so that it penetrates.



And, it would seem logical, for something like a hollow point, that has low penetration but does increased damage once it penetrates to list that as part of the weapon's description.

I've seen weapons in T5 that do an effect if the weapon penetrates. So, it seems easy for the hollow point to be Pen-1 Bullet-1, doing 1D for penetration, and if it penetrates, another 1D of bullet damage.

 

[pendragonman]

I haven't looked at GunMaker. Isn't that addressed in the damage the weapon does?

From page 240, The SR-5 Survival Rifle does Bullet-3 damage. That's 3D damage, right? Heavy on penetration.

Also from that page, is the Revolver-4, doing Bullet-1 damage. That's 1D damage. Not a lot of penetration.

I'm assuming (having not read the GunMaker chapter), that if you want more of an armor piercing bullet, then you increase damage so that it penetrates.



And, it would seem logical, for something like a hollow point, that has low penetration but does increased damage once it penetrates to list that as part of the weapon's description.

I've seen weapons in T5 that do an effect if the weapon penetrates. So, it seems easy for the hollow point to be Pen-1 Bullet-1, doing 1D for penetration, and if it penetrates, another 1D of bullet damage.

Yes, gun maker gives a damage output for a rifle. Let's look at a 50 cal sniper rifle.

For said rifle there is ball ammo (regular 50 cal ammo), armor piercing ammo, tracer...I think there is even discarding sabot (DSAP) ammo for it.

Each of those types of ammo interact with armor in different ways, and do different things to the target. These differences are beyond the scope of the gunmaker. I haven't yet tried to see what I can do with thingmaker, but...

 

[Supplement Four]

Uhm ... yeah. The problem with one size fits all Combat Simu, er, Mechanics is that it doesn't.

We're dealing with a very abstract one minute combat round. Are you looking at T5?

Reloading is not addressed in the rules--it's assumed to be quite possible within the roughly one minute of combat time allotted to the round. Characters move, duck, peek around corners, pull the trigger more than once, aim, fire some more. Aimed Fire could be one shot you made during that minute or two clips worth of shots.

Such an abstract combat round begs for an easy, one-size-fits-all, averaged rule.

Sometimes I want to know individual bullets, sometimes only mags or packs matter.

If you want to know individual bullets, I'm guessing that T5 is not for you. The weapons don't have indicators as they do in CT where the weapon is listed as capable of single shots or 4 round bursts.

But, if you do want to get more technical with my system in the OP, it is possible.

For example...



Aimed Fire requires 15 rounds per three combat rounds. You can deduce that a character averages 5 rounds per minute using Aimed Fire.

You can deduce that a character uses 10 rounds per minute using SnapFire.

You can decude that a character uses 20 rounds per minute using AutoFire.

So, if you want to get down to the bullet, or close to it, use those benchmarks.

Sometimes combat actions reasonably occur in reaction time increments of fractions of a second, others its a drawn out affair some two orders of magnitude longer between notable actions.

Yes. This is actually addressed in the description of the T5 Combat Round: "Some pass with without anything happening; others are flurries of activity." -- page 211 of T5.

On full auto, mags are likely to empty quick - and, tech dependent, barrels be ruined. (Suspect T5 ignores this fun bit of reality. )

AutoFire, by my rule, uses up about 20 rounds per minute (on average, of course). That's about 5 pulls of the trigger, using 4 round bursts*.

*Hey, whaddaya know! That's close to what happens in CT! CT uses 15 second abstract rounds, and a character can attack once per round--thus, full auto in CT uses 16 rounds per minute.

 

[DaveChase]

Why not instead use the weapon's rate of fire for determining how many mags you go through?

Dave Chase

 

[Supplement Four]

Why not instead use the weapon's rate of fire for determining how many mags you go through?

Dave Chase

First, I didn't know weapons were statted with ROF. Where's that? The GunMaker Output Samples on page 240 do not list ROF.

Second...you still need some system like what I've set up. What if your weapon can fire single shots, 3 round bursts, and 5 rounds bursts? How do you average that?

I did it by focusing on the three Attack types: Aimed Fire, SnapFire, and AutoFire.

 

[aramis]

In my experience the average soldier carrying a rifle carries (or more correctly is issued with) 5 magazines of 20 to 30 rounds each, one in the weapon and four on the webbing. How about +1 to burden for every 5 magazines carried?

That varies by force and equipment.

In basic, we went to the range with 3 full mags in each of our two ammo pouches, none in the weapon.

At Ft Rich, the MP's for many years carried one ammo pouch with 3 mags, and a fourth in the weapon; my roomie, a AKARNG infantry medic, carried 6 clips for his Colt Commander .45ACP in his one pouch. (When forced to switch to the 9mm, he joined the USCG...) The MP's had a radio pouch where we'd carried the second ammo pouch.

Note that the LBE ammo pouch from the late 1980's can (barely) fit 4x30rd M16 .223 mags, 3 was more practical; it also could strap on 2 grenades. Dad had an older pattern one which would only hold two.

The load bearing gear determines quite a lot about what standard carry will be.

 

[Supplement Four]

@Aramis...

But, that average soldier doesn't go around using full auto all the time, right? Aren't they trained to conserve ammo?

Using the SnapShot rule above, this average soldier, with 5 30 round clips, would go through a clip about every 3 minutes.

Five clips would last him for 15 minutes, or so, of combat (actually, up to 17 minutes, given the rule).

And if the soldier used his weapon like a US Marine, not wasting any ammo, then he'd use Aimed Fire all the time, and his five 30 round clips would last him for 30 rounds (could sqeeze out 32 rounds)--that's half an hour of continuous combat.

But, if he's a spray-n-pray type of combatant, using full AutoFire all the time, his five 30 round clips will last for only about 9 or 11 minutes or so.

Does that sound about right?

Wil, what are your thoughts on this, since you were in the service. I was just taking some "SWAG" here.:rofl:

Input on my conclusions?

If I'm in the ballpark, the the rule in the OP is decent. If not, then it will need some tinkering.

 

[BytePro]

...
Such an abstract combat round begs for an easy, one-size-fits-all, averaged rule.

Then the appropriate abstract mechanic would simply determine 'out of ammo condition' - regardless of any count. <shrug>

Ex: every round you check for out of ammo with increasing odds based on number of rounds and nature of 'fire' (snap/auto). Nature of weapon would also make sense, but again, these are all house rules - T5 RAW doesn't support this...

If you want to know individual bullets, I'm guessing that T5 is not for you. The weapons don't have indicators as they do in CT where the weapon is listed as capable of single shots or 4 round bursts.

But, if you do want to get more technical with my system in the OP, it is possible.

Don't use T5, unless...

For example...

Aimed Fire requires 15 rounds per three combat rounds. You can deduce that a character averages 5 rounds per minute using Aimed Fire.

You can deduce that a character uses 10 rounds per minute using SnapFire.

You can decude that a character uses 20 rounds per minute using AutoFire.

So, if you want to get down to the bullet, or close to it, use those benchmarks.

Why bother - you've done exactly the same amount of tracking and math anyway?

*Hey, whaddaya know! That's close to what happens in CT! CT uses 15 second abstract rounds, and a character can attack once per round--thus, full auto in CT uses 16 rounds per minute.

Yep, same difference.

Yes. This is actually addressed in the description of the T5 Combat Round: "Some pass with without anything happening; others are flurries of activity." -- page 211 of T5.

This doesn't really 'address' the several orders of magnitude of timing in any meaningful way... its just a statement of common sense.

 

[Spartan159]

Large caliber rounds? Sure, it can work for some. I could see a 50 cal. machine gun with a 500 round hopper used.

This weapon would be AutoFire only, of course. You probably wouldn't have to worry about changing this ammo out during a single fight.

Speaking from real life experience (primary MOS 0331 Machinegunner) I'll drop in a couple of facts here. The M2HB .50 cal is a belt fed weapon using a standard 100 round belt which can be linked on the fly a decent loader. (fireteam is usually 4 people, Gunner Loader Spotter and Ammo bearer) I am pretty sure they have a hopper option on armor but I never dealt with one, so I can't say what the capacity would be.

This beast is man portable with a 4 man team, I know, my team hiked it up and down California mountains. (Mountain Warfare Training Center, less said about the 2nd Lt who made us the better...)

But, that average soldier doesn't go around using full auto all the time, right? Aren't they trained to conserve ammo?

We were trained to use burst fire, not full auto. Does not mean we did not go full out, but burst was the standard. It is capable of single shot and has been used as a large sniper weapon in Vietnam if I'm not mistaken.

And if the soldier used his weapon like a US Marine, not wasting any ammo, then he'd use Aimed Fire all the time, and his five 30 round clips would last him for 30 rounds (could sqeeze out 32 rounds)--that's half an hour of continuous combat.

But, if he's a spray-n-pray type of combatant, using full AutoFire all the time, his five 30 round clips will last for only about 9 or 11 minutes or so.

Does that sound about right?

One Shot One Kill :devil:

Don't forget that modern weapons are capable of (average) 3 round burst aimed fire, YMMV, The H&K G-11 in particular was a nasty beast in this regard.

When I think of Aimed Fire, it's just that, aimed. Having said that I have put 10 rounds in 10 seconds of aimed fire center mass on an upper torso target at 300 yards using only iron sights.

To me, Snap Shots are "spray and pray"

Autofire really depends on the weapon, Rate of Fire is needed to know how much you're using per burst, and accuracy is going to be far better with Mounted/Tripod/Bipod that it will be carried.

Disclaimer: experience here is dated by a number of years.

 

[Supplement Four]

Then the appropriate abstract mechanic would simply determine 'out of ammo condition' - regardless of any count. <shrug>

If we did that, then how would you differentiate between two Joes, both carrying the same weapon, with one carrying a single mag and the other carrying five.

So, what I've come up with is more appropriate.

You seem to disagree with most options I post, so I'm not surprised at your objection here.

Ex: every round you check for out of ammo with increasing odds based on number of rounds and nature of 'fire' (snap/auto). Nature of weapon would also make sense, but again, these are all house rules - T5 RAW doesn't support this...

Thought about checking every round. One of the ideas I had in the other thread (linked in the OP) suggests this approach.

But, I think that's too cumbersome. I wanted a more simple rule--something very easy that still gets the job done.

Why bother - you've done exactly the same amount of tracking and math anyway?

You wanted to track a single bullet. Just showing how to use this system and extrapolate.

 

[Supplement Four]

Another Simple Ammo Tracking Thought....


...that I had involves the player using a red die (pick your color), one die in every attack throw. The result on this die would serve dual function (as does a flux die) in being part of the task throw AND as an indicator of ammo spent that round.

You could use it like this:

If Aimed Fire used, then a "1" on the ammo die means empty clip.

If SnapFire used, then a "1-2" on the ammo die means empty clip.

If AutoFire used, then a "1-2-3" on the ammo die means empty clip.



Of course, that would need some adjustment for small or large clips (like the 32 round revolver or the rifle with the 100 round ammo box).





Or...

If you want to do some more tracking, the ammo die could show you how many rounds fired from the weapon that round.

Aimed Fire: Shots equal to number shown on the ammo die.

SnapFire: Shots equal to number shown on the ammo die times two.

AutoFire: Shots equal to number shown on the ammo die times three.



You'd basically just add up total ammo. If you had 5 30-round magazines, then you'd have 150 rounds on you. Simply subtract that amount fired in a round from 150.

This is too much bookeeping for me, but it would work for those who want to track ammo closely.

 

[Uriel]

Nice system S4. When I eventually make it through this massive tome I might use it.

 

[aramis]

Wil, what are your thoughts on this, since you were in the service. I was just taking some "SWAG" here.:rofl:

M16 cyclic on autofire: 700+ rounds/min.

A guy on suppression fire can burn all 4-7 clips he's likely to have in a minute, easily, and most of that minute was spent changing mags... and changing mags can be as little as 5 seconds. Yes, you can dump a 30-round clip in 3 sec.

There's a reason they added 3 round burst - it's the best compromise between not wasting ammo and being able to scare the excrement out of people.

Most of the guys I've talked to have never fired on full auto, or done so only a couple times; the M16's next improvement model is supposed to lack full auto entirely, in order to reduce the sear (sp?) mass.

Going to paintball experience...
Sloppy Aiming is 2-5 seconds - in a one min turn, he's likely to get 12 to 20 shots off. Call it half a clip to a clip per minute. (avoids snapshot penalty?)
Careful aiming is more like 3-10 sec.
Sniping can be up to a minute per shot. And longer waiting for an opening.
The shot itself is 1/10 second. Recovering from the shot up to a few seconds, depending upon weapon, round, and wielder's training.

 

[Supplement Four]

A guy on suppression fire can burn all 4-7 clips he's likely to have in a minute, easily, and most of that minute was spent changing mags... and changing mags can be as little as 5 seconds. Yes, you can dump a 30-round clip in 3 sec.

Absolutely.