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Sector, Subsector, Planetary navies

Originally posted by thrash:
Simply put, there is a differences between a reserve -- an unallocated force, kept available for contingencies -- and an auxiliary -- a separate but complementary entity, with its own distinct hierarchy and ongoing mission.
I think that this is a rather formalistic approach to the question.

But, anyway...

A possible analogue to the subsector fleets is the US National Guard. From what I understand they are "State armies" of a sort, in that State Governors can call them out in various situations, and they can also be federalised in wartime - as they were in WWII, for instance.

But, there are federal reservists too, aren't there?

I can see where your argument is coming from, here.

The alternative model is really that of the British Empire, where the British military could call on the services of various colonies and dominions. The classic period for this is WWII after Dunkirk, where for a couple of years the Indian Army (plus the Dominion forces) pretty much _was_ the British Army.

Of course in this situation, the Dominion forces are subsector navies... Funnily enough, a lot of historians tend to refer to them as "British" forces.
 
... the US National Guard. From what I understand they are "State armies" of a sort, in that State Governors can call them out in various situations, and they can also be federalised in wartime ... But, there are federal reservists too, aren't there?
yes, and yes.

reserve units largely consist of people and resources that have no particular function during peacetime but that must be available in a sudden call to war. drill sergeants, mobile hospitals, and water treatment units are good examples of this.

the national guard are state armies - to the extent that independent states still exist. the guard units train in the same facilities used by regular troops, use the same equipment and uniforms, meet the same standards (in theory), and behave just like reserve units. the state that raises them pays for everything, but the federal government may step in at any moment and "federalize" them i.e. say "you work for us now".
 
This of course makes it rather difficult to create something based off of Fifth Frontier war dang it... :(

Ah well, I guess I just need to pay lip service to the Fifth Frontier war background and do as another individual has done - wing it. If Canon says there are only two batrons of the Tigress Dreadnaughts, then that is all there is. That means then that the organization of Squadrons have to utilize other craft instead and take it from there.

I'm going to have to open up a new thread of sorts on another topic...
 
Instead of looking at the Imperial Navy in terms of US/Western militaries, it might be better to look at it in terms of the Soviet Union. The Imperial structure seems to fit the Soviet model more closely than it does the US, with the Imperial forces being the Catagory A divisions, the subsector navies being a merging of the Cat B units and MVD forces, and the planetary navies being roughly equivalent to Cat C units.

My objection to using the US as a model (it very well may be the model, though modified; the designers were/are Americans, IIRC) is that I find it hard to imagine Coast Guard heavy cruisers and battleships roaming around ;) Looking at it from the Sov viewpoint, though, at least it's somewhat plausibile, if we have to fit the Imperial military organization into modern structures
 
Originally posted by thrash:
In MT, the numbered reserve fleets are part of the Imperial Navy. These quotes demonstrate that in CT, subsector navies are instead separate from it (as are planetary navies). Hence the contradiction -- or rather, an example of canon changing over time.

One remaining ambiguity, internal to MT, is that characters still cannot transfer between reserve and regular fleets during development.
I don't think the MT material says what you think it does, or that a contradiction exists that cannot be explained. Yes, the subsector/reserve fleets are answerable to the navy. But it could merely be that when making the feudal accords, the nobility was given certain assurances about fleets that could not be removed from their sectors in time of war, and the structure of the fleets evolved as a consequence of it. Part of an edict that certain fleets could not be moved might have necessitated a segregation of the fleets' personell as well, which led to a separate structure.

In real life, chains of command are often complex, with parallel paths and legalistic hoop-jumping and requirements. I have trouble beleiving that given this situation IRL, a psuedo-feudal futuristic system that is described as being a "government of men, not laws" would be any less complex.
 
Originally posted by thrash:
The National Defense Act of 1916 established that National (note the name) Guard units are reserves of the United States Army, although they have some state roles and state funding in peacetime. That's why, for example, you haven't heard any political posturing by state governors about not sending "their" troops to Iraq -- they don't get a choice. That's a fair model for numbered reserve fleets.
What was the situation prior to 1916? What exactly changed then?

Also: what changes would you expect to National Guard functioning if communications (and transport) were limited to speeds attainable by horses and humans? Especially if it was likely that the Canadians were likely to raid across the border, or the Apaches to rebel?

What if the government was much more decentralised, with a lot more authority given to state governments (a la the Confederacy, I guess). Particularly, of course, if that increased authority extended to the ability to raise taxes...

The result, I think, could well be argued to be more like the subsector fleets. But the point is, that there is a _continuum_ between the "reserve fleet" and "subsector fleet" model.

They are different points on the same curve.

All that really differs is the relative strength of the central and local government.

This means that contradictory cases can exist, where sections of the subsector-based fleets can be "both Imperial and local". And this is precisely the situation that I am arguing for - that a section of the Imperial Navy is effectively under local control, unless there is a pressing need for it to be otherwise.

And of course, since the Imperium is a feudal system with a weak central government, formed out of a mass of pocket and not-so-pocket empires, and struggled over by a myriad of competing factions, such dual lines of authority and privatised power is rather more likely than otherwise.
 
Another quick thought:

MT does offer a bridge between the two situations when it mentions that the nobility tends to weasel its way into the Navy's command structures.

It is most likely the reserve fleets and system squadrons that are the prime targets of this, since these forces are the most likely to be locally funded, locally supplied, and locally recruited. Add a bit of nepotism to the mix, and at least some of your "Imperial" forces have been privatised, whatever the theoretical situation.

Then consider that the regular (Sector) fleets are undergoing the same process, to a somewhat lesser degree.

Then watch this situation being replicated across the entire Imperium...

At some point it becomes easier and less dangerous simply to recognise and regulate the situation, rather than provoke a showdown with your rather dangerously powerful subjects.

But then, I personally tend to go with the T4 explanation that the subsector/reserve fleets were originally the (interstellar) forces present in the area at the time it was absorbed into the Imperium. That is, they were established as part of the co-option mechanisms that allowed the Imperium to make deals with potential member states and worlds.

"We recognise your right to make provision for your own local defence, but reserve the right to call upon your forces when they are needed. Here is your Ducal Coronet, and here's a hat for your Grand Admiral."
 
Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by thrash:
The National Defense Act of 1916 established that National (note the name) Guard units are reserves of the United States Army, although they have some state roles and state funding in peacetime. That's why, for example, you haven't heard any political posturing by state governors about not sending "their" troops to Iraq -- they don't get a choice. That's a fair model for numbered reserve fleets.
What was the situation prior to 1916? What exactly changed then?
</font>[/QUOTE]Well, in the US model pre-1916, several differences existed.
1) the National Guard units were raised by the state for the state's use.
2) Wartime levy was in mustered regiments, not persons... guard units went first, sometimes. Others were raised on-the-call. Like the 35th Maine was raised in Maine during the Civil war.
3) Most troops (not officers) served their whole careers in one unit, unless the unit was merged with another unit. This was true for both regulars and guardsmen.
4) centralized basic training was established around the same time, so pre-1916, basic training was either done on a sate by state or even in-regiment basis.

in 1916, the guard and reserve system began its rise to the modern modes.
Active Duty: Regular troops, full time. Paid
Reservists: Federal troops, part time. Some paid, some work for retirement only.
Guardsmen: State troops, obligated to follow federal activations/ Paid. Federal funding added to state funding. Most are part time, but some are full time in some states. Federally trained.
State Militia: State troops, not obligated to follow federal activations, but also not granted access to federal funds, hardware nor training. some are paid, others not. Some are not even funded, even tho' state governed.
Auxillary: non-paid volunteer force affiliated with federal forces. Usually self-training, but recieving a military provided budget for their operations.
Private Militia: any military force allowed by a state but not directly subject to state control nor federal control. Some are actually city militias, others are radical survivalists, and more than a few are reenactors... but given that some of the reneactor groups can bullseye a squirrel at 200 yards with a kentucky rifle over iron sights....

Now, the G&R act established clearly that the guard, not just is able to fill in thee required regimental contribution, but MUST do so. It also said a guardsman MUST be loyal to the Counry first, the state second, and trained by and with active and reserve forces.

It also provided that other militia forces could exist, but didn't delineate them terribly well.

I understand both texas and michigan have state funded militias in addition to Active, Reserve, Guard, and auxillary units. (As of 1992, Every state in the US had Reserve, Guard, and Auxillary units; most but not all, had active units of one kind or another; only a few had other militia groups that were state sponsored, let alone funded.)
 
At present - to answer Chris' question as to which version of sub-sector navy am I referring to - I guess the answer is both. The more I reread that article in the JTAS #9 edition about Colonial navies, the more I get confused. Are colonial navies comprised of subsector Navies or are they jump capable planetary navies? High Guard seems to imply that Planetary Navies are strictly Planetary Defense boats. JTAS 9 seems to imply that if a world is fortunate enough to build a jump capable fleet, that it is a colonial fleet.

The questions raised by that reading are:

1) Are Colonial Navies solely those navies as raised by a single world capable of jump manuevering?

2) Are subsector Navies also Colonial navies?

At present, these are the questions I have about reserve units...

A reserve unit - does that ever get deployed as its own unit, or is it always part of the parent unit to which it is considered to be a reserve of?

By definition, a Reserve Unit, because it is outfitted with obsolete and hand me down ships, will not be cutting edge technology. In FFW, such a ship would have had the -1 column shift in the combat charts no? But what about a ship raised at a TL 15 (Gurps Tech 12) world? Wouldn't such a Colonial Fleet also be cutting edge enough to not require a one column shift on the combat charts for FFW?
 
For those who are interested, I've come up with a Combined Gross Domestic Product for all of Lunion's subsector worlds. This includes the two Red zone and one Amber zone worlds (but they don't add all that much). This figure calculated is the value based on the Imperial Credit (GURPS TL 12/Trav Tech 15 value). I got this value by multiplying the Per capita income times all the modifiers for trade values times the exchange rate of that world for TL 12 credits. The final total was: 252,388,650.50956 MCr. Converting the values to TL 10 credits, you need only multiply by 3.2.
Ultimately - what I'd like to do is create a budget in the sense of allocating each world's production into planetary navies where applicable, using the concept that they get the bulk of the taxes imposed on their citizens. The Subsector and Imperial "taxes" are figured out and then divided up into their respective slices of the pie (ie administration, improvements, etc in addition to the military portion of the budget). From there?

What I'd like to accomplish is some means of translating the FFW material into ship classes and costs. I'd also like to build the support craft needed for the navy forces such as missile colliers, hospital ships, fleet maintenance and repair craft, Military transports, picket ships, dispatch ships, and so on.

Ambitious? Perhaps. Hopefully, with enough advice and enough documentation - it is an achievable goal.
 
Originally posted by thrash:
Note also that a reserve need not be inferior in equipment, though this is often the case as a cost-saving measure. A commander may, for example, constitute a "local reserve" from among his front-line forces and rotate units in and out of reserve to prolong their fighting fitness. A reserve may also consist of the very best fighting elements, if they are few in number, precisely because they can turn the tide of a battle or campaign when committed. This appears to be the role of battlerider-equipped squadrons after the Imperial Navy adopts the operational defense in depth.
This is a key point.

I think you may be confusing "reserve" and "reservist".

To me, "reserve" refers to the forces strategically and tactically held back to allow a commander to react to crises and opportunities.

"Reservists" are forces that are only mobilised in times of war (or for training to prepare them for this situation). That is, they do something else when they are not required. The nature of this "something else" may vary.

I tend to read "Reserve Fleets" as being the administrative centre/wartime command structure for forces in the latter category.

These forces may or may not be the same forces as the colonial (subsector) navies. In this particular situation I think they are, given that a lot of subsectors have continuing low-level military needs like keeping the Vargr away. That is, the forces that from the point of view of the Sector fleet are reservists are routinely engaged in garrison and patrol duties at the subsector level.

The Reserve Fleet headquarters may or may not be the same as the Colonial fleet headquarters. It seems logical enough that they would be - it's in the interest of the Imperium that there is as little as possible administrative disruption involved in mobilising its reservists, and the colonial forces benefit from having Imperial-grade command structures.

In the pre-WWII period, and probably post-War, most European countries had conscript armies. Their "regular" armies consisted of a mix of long-service professionals, and short-service conscripts. These were organised conventionally.
In addition, of course, former conscripts were subject to mobilisation in the event of war. Such forces would (and did) constitute the majority of the army in wartime.

They were often attached to units that maintained a regular cadre, but in any case were often grouped into administrative categories, often with names like "Military Districts" or something of the sort. These "Military Districts" typically had headquarters units, and generally, these units were intended to be able to constitute divisional (or even higher level) cadres in case of mobilisation.

They were, in a sense, "Reserve Divisions".

This is what I think the "Reserve Fleets" are. They are cadres for fleets to be mobilised in the event of conflict.

As it happens, these fleets are mobilised from units present and active at the subsector level, rather than units whose equipment is mothballed, and whose personnel is dispersed amongst the civilian population. Units in the latter category may exist as well, of course, but aren't particularly relevant here.

The subsector governments, in cooperation with the reserve fleet command structure (who are actually in effect part of the "subsector governments"), are responsible for ensuring that adequate reservist forces are available for mobilisation. This includes the acquisition of former regular navy equipment, where appropriate equipment is not otherwise available.

Do you agree that this is a workable enough interpretation of the evidence?

There is an Imperial "Reserve Fleet" structure, that is organised on a subsector level, and whose assets are available to the subsector government when not otherwise required.

Yes, we have moved a little towards liquidating the "subsector" navies into being an aggregation of planetary squadrons - but that's a perfectly reasonable interpretation of what they would actually be. After all, real taxation ability still lies with the individual worlds, and the subsector government's main role is probably one of coordination. Plus, of course, the biggest and richest planetary economies carry almost all of the weight and influence here anyway.

There is still the case of the old Pocket Empires absorbed by the Imperium, but the Imperium notionally breaks these up into planetary units anyway. We can treat this as a special vestigial situation.

To summarise: I think we are close to a mutually acceptable compromise. Do you agree?
 
Originally posted by Hal:
For those who are interested, I've come up with a Combined Gross Domestic Product for all of Lunion's subsector worlds. This includes the two Red zone and one Amber zone worlds (but they don't add all that much). This figure calculated is the value based on the Imperial Credit (GURPS TL 12/Trav Tech 15 value). I got this value by multiplying the Per capita income times all the modifiers for trade values times the exchange rate of that world for TL 12 credits. The final total was: 252,388,650.50956 MCr. Converting the values to TL 10 credits, you need only multiply by 3.2.
Ultimately - what I'd like to do is create a budget in the sense of allocating each world's production into planetary navies where applicable, using the concept that they get the bulk of the taxes imposed on their citizens. The Subsector and Imperial "taxes" are figured out and then divided up into their respective slices of the pie (ie administration, improvements, etc in addition to the military portion of the budget). From there?

What I'd like to accomplish is some means of translating the FFW material into ship classes and costs. I'd also like to build the support craft needed for the navy forces such as missile colliers, hospital ships, fleet maintenance and repair craft, Military transports, picket ships, dispatch ships, and so on.

Ambitious? Perhaps. Hopefully, with enough advice and enough documentation - it is an achievable goal.
IMTU, The standard taxation rate is 2% of Gross World Product (GWP). 66% remains behind at the world for the Marquis (IMTU: Margrave), 1% is retained by the Marquis as a personal stipend (a personal paycheck), and 33% is passed on the Subsector.

The Subsector does the same thing. 66% of the combined taxes from the worlds are kept and administered by the local Subsector Duke (IMTU: Count), 1% is the Subsector Duke's stipend, and 33% is kicked up to Sector.

Also IMTU: The Lunion Subsector Duke gets approximately 15.9 TCr for the annual budget (which is extracted from a vague, very vague, translation of the GURPS:FT GWP calculations).

I earlier roughly figured out that a 2 TCr budget could purchase (outright!) a navy of 25 Armored Cruisers, 100 Fleet Escorts, 100 Destroyer Escorts, and 400 SDB (for extensive coverage of every starsystem in the Subsector) with *lots* left over for support ships, employees, training, bases, etc. Following a model of using down-payments and mortgages, a much larger navy could be funded.

Some of the world-level funds in the Marquis' hands are used to help fund each planet's defense navy (although, for worlds with smaller budgets, this may not amount to much; which is why those worlds rely on forces deployed by the Subsector Duke).

The coverage made available by ships funded from such a huge budget is not consistent from subsector to subsector. If I run the same numbers for Lanth Subsector, adjacent to Lunion, I get a Subsector budget of only 216 GCr, or much, much smaller. In these cases, it's likely the Subsector would get military funds from the Sector level (an agreement would be worked out between Subsector and Sector Dukes).
 
Hmm, remarkably, Lunion seems to have the 3rd largest Subsector budget, surpassed only by Rhylanor and Mora. I would have thought Glisten and Trin's Veil would have come in better, but they were 4th and 5th.

Lunion only beat Glisten by 800 GCr, but Trin's Veil was almost 2 TCr behind Glisten.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
IMTU, The standard taxation rate is 2% of Gross World Product (GWP). 66% remains behind at the world for the Marquis (IMTU: Margrave), 1% is retained by the Marquis as a personal stipend (a personal paycheck), and 33% is passed on the Subsector.

Question? When you utilized the figures, did you divide the military budget amongst the various forces or utilize it fully by the Navy? At present, I'm leaning towards the following:

3% of GDP of a world goes to its planety military needs. All of this is spent on such things as Planetary Defense, Marines, Army, Navy, COAAC, and special forces.

In addition to the world's normal taxation, another layer of taxation by treaty is appended to the planetary structure. This taxation in turn is utilized as funding for the subsector level government as well as military. I'm leaning towards 25% of the subsector tax being spent on the military. This military structure however does not have a planetary defense budget nor a COAAC portion.

What comes next however isn't a happy mix of budgetting:

Sensor platforms for early warning

Repair and maintenance

Wages both during employment and retirement benefits

Basing costs for military and families

Subsidiary benefits (medical, education, etc)

Training costs

Resupply of expendables etc

And so on. This doesn't even mention things such as R&R of systems nor does it mention R&R for ship building by class etc.


Originally posted by RainOfSteel:

The Subsector does the same thing. 66% of the combined taxes from the worlds are kept and administered by the local Subsector Duke (IMTU: Count), 1% is the Subsector Duke's stipend, and 33% is kicked up to Sector.

Also IMTU: The Lunion Subsector Duke gets approximately 15.9 TCr for the annual budget (which is extracted from a vague, very vague, translation of the GURPS:FT GWP calculations).

I earlier roughly figured out that a 2 TCr budget could purchase (outright!) a navy of 25 Armored Cruisers, 100 Fleet Escorts, 100 Destroyer Escorts, and 400 SDB (for extensive coverage of every starsystem in the Subsector) with *lots* left over for support ships, employees, training, bases, etc. Following a model of using down-payments and mortgages, a much larger navy could be funded.

Some of the world-level funds in the Marquis' hands are used to help fund each planet's defense navy (although, for worlds with smaller budgets, this may not amount to much; which is why those worlds rely on forces deployed by the Subsector Duke).

The coverage made available by ships funded from such a huge budget is not consistent from subsector to subsector. If I run the same numbers for Lanth Subsector, adjacent to Lunion, I get a Subsector budget of only 216 GCr, or much, much smaller. In these cases, it's likely the Subsector would get military funds from the Sector level (an agreement would be worked out between Subsector and Sector Dukes).
Wanna exchange emails and see what we can come up with?
 
What might be interesting to try is take a specific counter from the Fifth Frontier war, determine what ships are represented by that counter, and price all of the elements involved. For example - suppose you knew how large of an army an AssaultRon carries. It would be relatively simple to figure out what ships are neccessary for it.
For a CruRon - what ships are present or need to be inferred to be present for such a CruRon to exist?

But you get the drift of what I'm asking
 
Originally posted by alanb:
I think you may be confusing "reserve" and "reservist".
Originally posted by thrash:
I'm not -- this is what I do for a living -- but let's continue.
I'm aware of your profession. I probably should have said: "You are confusing others on this point, or at least failing to draw an actually existing distinction."

alanb:To me, "reserve" refers to the forces strategically and tactically held back to allow a commander to react to crises and opportunities.

"Reservists" are forces that are only mobilised in times of war (or for training to prepare them for this situation).
thrash:This is a specious distinction: the only difference is how far back the reserve is held, and under what conditions its use is anticipated. Both forces are still reserves.
In this context the difference is relevant.

The Corridor Fleet are reserves. The Glisten subsector fleet are reservists. The latter may actually see combat first in a specific war, of course. Or not.

alanb: These forces may or may not be the same forces as the colonial (subsector) navies.
thrash:This is where your proposal falls apart:

The quote I provided from High Guard clearly distinguished between Imperial forces, subsector (colonial) forces "which patrol their individual subsectors, filling the gaps that the Imperial forces cannot handle" (emphasis mine), and planetary forces. Subsector navies therefore cannot be a reserve of the Imperial Navy. They are their own non-Imperial services, separate and distinct, with their own chains of command -- auxiliaries, instead.

In MT, the "numbered reserve fleets" are equally clearly a full-time part of the Imperial Navy establishment, though their use is anticipated only in wartime. They respond to the Imperial Navy chain of command, not to the subsector government.

The two descriptions are mutually exclusive: either the subsector navy is part of the Imperial Navy, or it isn't; either the subsector duke is in its chain of command, or he isn't; either the Imperial sector naval headquarters can task the subsector navy directly, or it can't.

In CT, the emphasis is on the feudal nature of the Imperium: there is no need for a unified military structure from planet to Imperial Admiralty. Orders follow the civil, feudal lines of authority; unity of command depends on feudal loyalty and obligations.

In MT, the emphasis is on a single, unified military chain of command. Loyalty to the monolithic, centralized naval chain of command supercedes feudal obligations, except at the very highest levels. This is necessary to allow the total disintegration of Imperial society to stem from the death of one man: a more decentralized structure would continue largely uninterrupted, and wait for a victor to emerge (as, in fact, depicted in the Civil War).
Well, first of all, the Imperium did continue largely uninterrupted "waiting for a victor to emerge", right up until the Black War, and then Virus, prevented it from functioning. What do you think the various factions were based upon?

Your distinction between "Imperial forces" and everyone else is between peacetime regular forces and, well, everyone else. Tell the troops in the Philippines in early 1942 how well the "US" forces were able to handle that situation, and then differentiate the National Guardsmen and new recruits who liberated the Philippines in 1944 and 1945 from "US" forces.

Aside from anything else, you are separating the subsector governments from the "Imperial" government. In fact, they are the "Imperial" government, as far as their own particular area is concerned. If you want to consider a more distant layer of government as "Imperial", consider the way the fleets canonically followed their Sector and Domain chains of command.

The Imperium is not a monolith, in MT or CT. That's why it broke up the way it did.

Imperialised reservists are Imperial forces, full stop. That's regardless of their peacetime status.
 
Once again on a Friday night:

OK, so the local Imperial Grand Admiral says to you: "you're in charge of all the Imperial forces in Glisten - except for a bunch of undertrained second bananas who respond to a completely separate chain of command. They are supposed to be your reserves, but they aren't under your command, so you can't actually give them orders. But they are part of the regular Navy."
 
Originally posted by thrash:

This is a significantly different picture than MT portrays. In MT, the decisions of a few powerful individuals (archdukes and grand admirals) were sufficient to fracture the Imperium cleanly and completely along factional lines. In the Civil War, as in the Imperium as depicted by CT, questions of loyalty and rebellion were decided all the way down to individual worlds and squadrons; most could afford to remain neutral, supported by a widespread patchwork of like-minded entities. The "Black War" could never have existed as it did without the centralizing changes introduced in MT.
While at a tangent to my purposes in this thread, I have to ask this based on what you just said about the black war (Civil war). How did the prior civil wars take place regards to the Barracks Emperors? Clearly, the potential for civil war had to have existed whether we talk CT force structure or MT force structure no?
In addition? To respond to Alan's comment - does it not say that Colonial fleets can be "Imperialized"? By that definition alone, I could see it easily enough said where a colonial force originally answerable to the subsector Duke, must now, by law, integrate into the Imperial Navy for the duration of the emergency, and then separate from the Imperial command structure once the emergency is declared to be over. It does raise an interesting question of sorts. Who pays for the troops during the emergency? Who pays for the materials consumed in the war? Under the old feudal obligations of medieval times, it was the noble himself who bore these costs for a specified time, after which his liege had to pay mercenary rates. Since in these Techno-fuedalistic times where a noble isn't neccessarily obligated to provide a fighting force - this looks as though perhaps the Imperium may be forced to assume payments upon the declaration of the emergency. Hmmmm. Such an assumption if valid would explain why the Imperium tries to limit how often they declare an emergency - as such funds come out of their pockets...
 
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