Ship paradigm IYTU

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tobias:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ran Targas:
Aircraft and submarines reflect new technologies and tactics utilized to significantly (and cheaply) reduce the effectiveness of old tech armored warships.

Aircraft and submarines are effective because they operate in a different medium. Many people draw the false analogies "Space Battleship = Ship, Space Fighter = Aircraft". The correct analogy would be "Space Fighter = reaaaally small boat".</font>[/QUOTE]No! They were effective because they 1) utilized greater mobility/stealth to reduce reaction time and increase hit probability, 2) employed weapons that bypassed the battleship's primary defenses, and 3) exploited the relative inability of the battleship's primary batteries to engage them.[qb]</font>[/QUOTE]1. This was only possible because of different mediums such as air and subsurface water. None of these things exist in space. In space, the bigger your engines and your fuel supply, the greater your speed and endurance. It's that simple. A space fighter CAN'T be faster than a battleship; and it most certainly cannot have a greater range.

2. It carried weapons such a distance that the battleship couldn't respond with its defences. A bomber from an CV is going to hit the BB before the BB can hit the CV with it's big guns. Again, this is only possible because the different medium - air - allowed those planes to do this. Same story goes for submarines, because they can approach a ship under the waves via stealth and get their shot that way.

3. Precisely. And why would this take place in space? It can't. The BB's guns were ballistic projectile weapons that fired over the horizon. In effect it's 2D fighting because the environment is more or less 'flat'. In space, there is no 'flat' environment. There is also nothing like a BB's ballistic projectiles. Lasers go in a straight line. Missiles are for long range attacks.

Space warfare would involve lots of careful emissions control for some degree of stealth, detect the enemy first and fire your missiles first. (submarine warfare, or missile warfare, essentially) One hit and you're more or less gone, because realistically what's going to stand up to a nuke missile?

Of course this is Scifi, so we can do all sorts of unrealistic things, like have meson weapons and jumpengines and psionics and black globe generators etc.

All these could be reflected in Traveller without upsetting the balance of power tremendously.[qb][/quote]
None of those things can be reflected in Traveller at all. How do you put in the equivalent of a submarine in space? Or aircraft carrier? You can't. Why? Because space is the universal medium, whereas in the ocean you have the surface, sub-surface, and aerial environments (three different mediums).

Tobias is correct with his analogy: a space fighter is really a small boat. Doesn't mean those small boats don't have a place, but you can't just say "I want the Battle of Midway in space!" because it ain't gonna happen. Not without asking yourself why fighters would be better than missiles. It's like saying "I want swordfights in space!" well that's nice, but what happened to guns?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"Why not in command?
IMHO the PCs as the command crew (CO, XO and other principal officers) of a large ship could work quite well."

It can, but it does limit you a bit. Warship captains can't really go off and do whatever they want. The game tends to become strategic rather than tactical (ie the PCs make the decisions and then send NPCs off to "make it so"; normally it's the other way round).

 

[parmasson]

"Why not in command?
IMHO the PCs as the command crew (CO, XO and other principal officers) of a large ship could work quite well."

It can, but it does limit you a bit. Warship captains can't really go off and do whatever they want. The game tends to become strategic rather than tactical (ie the PCs make the decisions and then send NPCs off to "make it so"; normally it's the other way round).

True, but a cruiser operating out at or beyond the frontier could be out of contact with admiralty for weeks or even months. Orders can be phrased in a way to accomplish such and such a mission. How they do it can be up to them and the best part is they will have to answer for it when they get back to civilization!

The CA-12 cruiser Glendale is given orders to investigate a possible Vargr raiding base three or four jumps out beyond the frontier. Investigate, and take appropriate action if necessary. What is appropriate? You know, give them enough rope to hang themselves.

 

[Ran Targas]

Tobias/Stofsk,

First, let me say that I do have big, hulking warships IMTU but they have singular uses. They are not the end-all-be-all of space warfare, anymore than the battleship was. They are definitely not the equivalent of a Constitution NCC-1700; able to operate solo even in combat.

I believe, even in Traveller space warfare, there is still plenty applications for smaller craft. Battleships project power exceptionally well but, for the money, only control a small volume of space. Battleships also represent a sizeable investment of funds, resources, and manpower for a platform that is only suited for warfare and showing the flag. Sometimes you need a battleship; but the rest of the time, a destroyer or frigate will do.

Secondly, I draw much of my space warfare concepts from actual naval warfare experience. The reality of the current state of naval warfare is that small craft can still record a mission kill on large ships, even though they may be destroyed in the process. This has mostly to do with matching the number and destructive force of a weapon to the target and it's defenses. Want to kill a corvette, fire one missile; want to kill a cruiser, fire multiple missiles. But the rules don't even consider this an option and I think it takes away from some of the fun of the game. Defeating an Imperial admiral in his flag ship is not an option for someone in a Kiunir. And there's definitely no cinematic Death Star trench runs or feigning an attack on a Star Destroyer with a Far Trader!

I would gladly chuck realism to have a memorable gaming experience anyday!

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

My next Child's middle name shall be High Guard.

I like both. Large ships make sure the adventure never stops, as it is sort of like a roving "dungeon in space" for a D&D based mind. Our happy Pirate Ship is 2000 tons, and is pack to the gunnels with all manner of rogues.

When I started out, it was always Group A in Scout Courier B, but then I realized t could really be anything, any tonnage. Small ships are cool, but I always think if its for PC use, it should be a new design, somthing fresh.

Then ye must take into acount the many different species making ships. Hivers makes ships for humans. K'kree got those flying saucers.. The cultural mix favors in as well.. Zhodani and Vargr designs should influence all around thier space. There should be all kinds of ships, all the time, everywhere. The technology exists, and there are plenty of beings who do it for a living.

There should be a "Space Submarine" class, and it should be a designed stealth warship with advanced Electronic Warfare packages. It would be corny to have them turn invisible, but with chameleon Armor, why not, eh?

The thing I notice always as games progress is the sense of "homeyness" a ship takes on.

I always wanted to do a game where the Ship is the Setting, truly, but then It seemed too Space:1999ish.

That's one of Traveller's greatest assets: the ability to depict either big or small ship. Design Mecahnics like HG are a lot of fun!

We really must set up some sort of on the spot GH setup for conventions and the like. Simple map and counters should do it.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Baron, my only problem with PCs on a BIG ship is the crew requirements. I prefer not to run too many NPCs - it makes it harder to run the ones that make the adventure go. And, of course, Traveller assumes (I think for simplicity) there aren't TOO many designs out there - Vilani are just too conservative! (Or something like that....)

Stofsk, I think there's room for both concepts. Traveller is based (by its comm limitations) on the age of sail to a great extent. So, it's less like submarine warfare, and more like Master and Commander.

But, you can also get multiple environments. Modern naval war has sub/surface/air realms, and Traveller has orbital/deep/Kuiper&OOrt realms. It's harder to hide your sailing ship than your spaceship, but the searching is much the same (just think of a taller crow's nest). You can play sub hunt, too, as a ship can lie still and use passive sensors to lie in wait. (Of course, you don't have to be quiet on the spacecraft...)

My point is just that there are elements from a lot of different eras/paradigms/stories/ways of thought in Traveller, and it is YTU. (Not picking on you, btw. You were just the most recent salvo in this doctrinal dustup. No offense )

 

[vegascat]

Ships of all sizes do have their uses IMTU.
Ships up to 1000Dt are great for PC ships, ships to attack the PC ships, and other regular encounters.
Fleet units are useful to keep the PCs fairly honest.
To really give a group of PCs a sense of accomplishment, I set them against a 1M Dt Zhodani BB and it's escorts. They were pursued as Vargr pirates by the BB and all of her fleet units. Their ultimate success depended on them boarding the ship, not getting their minds read by security, modifying the BBs navigation program to jump within the photoshpere of the nearest star taking all of it's escorts with it, then escape before the ship jumped.
Yes, I do love to see players squirm.

I use bulk carriers to transport food from ag worlds to Hi Pop industrial worlds. These trade lines are locked up by megacorps using purpose built ships of 10,000 Dt.
Fleets are very effective using the paper/rock/sissors design set. 1/4rd of the Fleet tonnage dedicated to expendable 1000 Dt missile DDs, 1/4 for massive heavily defended BBs, and 1/4 for Meson CAs. The other 1/4 fleet tonnage is for support vessels.
For deep space explorartion of sectors well outside the Imperial borders, I like a 75,000 Dt lightly armed cruiser. It carries 20 light Fighters, 5 Cutters, 5 fast couriers, and supplies to set up 25 long term outposts. It is expected to go without resupply for a minimum of three years. It is a great platform for an explorer campaign for PCs.

I have found that all sizes of ships are useful to a GM.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Having good NPCs and bullet catchers can work wonders for a campaign. With simple devices like accents to speech you can say volumes in a character. I also sandbag it some using clones for some crewmen, or genralized stats for Vargr, etc. My PCs rock and really interact with them, and that interaction makes them fun to control for me as a Ref.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Having good NPCs and bullet catchers can work wonders for a campaign. With simple devices like accents to speech you can say volumes in a character. I also sandbag it some using clones for some crewmen, or genralized stats for Vargr, etc. My PCs rock and really interact with them, and that interaction makes them fun to control for me as a Ref.

 

[vegascat]

I have found that campaigns must have some elements to be enjoyable by all;
The Hook, to lead them in.
The Mcguffin, to make it special.
Red Shirts, to demonstrate the effects of the new danger and let them know the threat of death is there.
The Dragon, Bigger, meaner, nastier that must be finessed into submission, to be memorable and give a sense of accomplishment.
WHat I hav found the players remember years later is not that they "Killed the Dragon", but how they finessed the key to the dragons hoard so they could get the "Magic Dagger" needed to "Kill the Dragon".

The Ref has a job to do, keep the players entertained.
He has several tools to use, the books of the game, his acting ability, his imagination and story telling ability.

 

[robject]

The Hook reminds me of the Pull.

The Mcguffin reminds me of (1) the gimmick, and (2) the enigma.

Red Shirts reminds me of the "Spear carrier" NPC type.

The Dragon reminds me of the Push.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Baron, I wasn't implying otherwise. It's just that I can only do so many NPCs at a time. And, a big ship has entirely too many of them for my liking. But, I like to spend a lot of time off the ship, too.