Small Ship fleet sizes

[whartung]

Kind of staying on theme with a bunch of things recently, I'm wondering how big the fleets are in the small ship MTUs.

One feature of small ships is -- they're "cheap". They cost less Cr, and, perhaps even more important, they're built much faster.

That suggests that, given the same budgets, fleets would be larger.

Do the fleets become scads of 5KdT battle cruisers? Or are fighters actually useful in the small ship universe to where it's 5KdT carriers.

Do the fleets grow in to the hundreds of ships? or is the goal to scale it all down (same number of ships, just knock a 0 or two from the hull sizes...)

 

[pendragonman]

I find that the carriers become queens again in a small ship fleet, especially when the fleet max TL is 12-13.

 

[flykiller]

That suggests that, given the same budgets, fleets would be larger.

actually the limiting factor in hg2 fleet construction is shipyard space. to determine fleet size simply total up all available shipyard dtonnage and set whatever ship lifespan rule and civilian/military ratio rule you wish to implement.

 

[flykiller]

I find that the carriers become queens again in a small ship fleet, especially when the fleet max TL is 12-13.

I found that the 1000 dton fact 9 missile bay frigate worked best. of course it's all rules-dependent.

 

[rancke]

actually the limiting factor in hg2 fleet construction is shipyard space. to determine fleet size simply total up all available shipyard dtonnage and set whatever ship lifespan rule and civilian/military ratio rule you wish to implement.

I don't think HG mentions anything about shipyard capacity. That's a TCS feature.

Realistically, a world will have the shipyard capacity to support the size of fleet it wants. There may be temporary problems if policy changes from few ships to many ships, but if there isn't enough capacity, more will be built.

The real constraint on fleet size is money and the willingness to spend it. Everything else being equal, worlds in a Smal Ship Universe will have a lot more ships than worlds in a Big Ship Universe. Somewhere around a factor 100 more.

Unless, of course, you steadfastly ignore the ramifications of high-population worlds...


Hans

 

[flykiller]

That's a TCS feature.

ah, yes, you are correct. it's been a while ....

Realistically, a world will have the shipyard capacity to support the size of fleet it wants.

tcs listed "normal" and "wartime" rates of construction, adjusted by government type. I took the limits listed there to represent hard objective governmental/industrial/technical capacity. they may wish for more, but realistically the limits are what they are.

 

[Cryton]

I don't think HG mentions anything about shipyard capacity. That's a TCS feature.

Realistically, a world will have the shipyard capacity to support the size of fleet it wants. There may be temporary problems if policy changes from few ships to many ships, but if there isn't enough capacity, more will be built.

The real constraint on fleet size is money and the willingness to spend it. Everything else being equal, worlds in a Smal Ship Universe will have a lot more ships than worlds in a Big Ship Universe. Somewhere around a factor 100 more.

Unless, of course, you steadfastly ignore the ramifications of high-population worlds...


Hans

Ok Hans, what are the ramifications?

 

[rancke]

Ok Hans, what are the ramifications?

Sorry, I thought that was obvious. Large populations can afford large numbers of ships. Proto-Traveller settings do not have large number of ships even though logically they should have; the average population of a Traveller world is more than a billion.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Do the fleets become scads of 5KdT battle cruisers? Or are fighters actually useful in the small ship universe to where it's 5KdT carriers.

Depends. in MGT fighters are pretty useless against heavily armored ships. As far as size, depends on size & wealth of the world(s). also on perceived or real, need.

 

[Cryton]

Sorry, I thought that was obvious. Large populations can afford large numbers of ships. Proto-Traveller settings do not have large number of ships even though logically they should have; the average population of a Traveller world is more than a billion.


Hans

Thank you Hans. That is what I figured the ramifications were, but wanted to make sure that I had not missed something.

 

[Greylond]

Depends. in MGT fighters are pretty useless against heavily armored ships.

Yea, most of them. That's what the 40 ton Torpedo Boat is for. Load up with 2 Bomb Pumped Torps (6d6 Damage).

 

[HG_B]

Yea, most of them. That's what the 40 ton Torpedo Boat is for. Load up with 2 Bomb Pumped Torps (6d6 Damage).

Waste of Cr as the 40 ton ship will be vaporized in combat. Better to launch the torps from a larger ship.

 

[Greylond]

Nation States don't always make smart decisions when it comes to weapon systems...

 

[HG_B]

Nation States don't always make smart decisions when it comes to weapon systems...

Sooo true that.

 

[rancke]

Nation States don't always make smart decisions when it comes to weapon systems...

But if their decisions are too stupid, their successors do better.



Hans

 

[PFVA63]

I find that the carriers become queens again in a small ship fleet, especially when the fleet max TL is 12-13.

Hi,

One potential problem with a "carrier" type vessel in a small ship setting is that LBB2 doesn't really have rules to address some of the issues that might arise with trying to operate a lot of small craft from a single vessel. As such, its unclear whether a "carrier" type vessel should include extra spaces for things like maintenance and stores, repair parts, testing facilities, flight crew briefing rooms, additional comms and control facilities, etc.

 

[PFVA63]

Kind of staying on theme with a bunch of things recently, I'm wondering how big the fleets are in the small ship MTUs.

One feature of small ships is -- they're "cheap". They cost less Cr, and, perhaps even more important, they're built much faster.

That suggests that, given the same budgets, fleets would be larger.

Do the fleets become scads of 5KdT battle cruisers? Or are fighters actually useful in the small ship universe to where it's 5KdT carriers.

Do the fleets grow in to the hundreds of ships? or is the goal to scale it all down (same number of ships, just knock a 0 or two from the hull sizes...)

Hi,

In actuality a 5000dton ship isn't really all that small. At 14 cubic meters per dton a 5000dton ship would have a volume of 70,000 cubic meters which is just a little less than the enclosed volume of the US Navy's LSD 49 Amphibious ships, as shown below.

 

[HG_B]

An Ohio Class SSBN is ~1,500 tons Traveller displacement.

 

[pendragonman]

Hi,

One potential problem with a "carrier" type vessel in a small ship setting is that LBB2 doesn't really have rules to address some of the issues that might arise with trying to operate a lot of small craft from a single vessel. As such, its unclear whether a "carrier" type vessel should include extra spaces for things like maintenance and stores, repair parts, testing facilities, flight crew briefing rooms, additional comms and control facilities, etc.

Ok. I take it you are one of those that go by the idea that if it is not specifically written as ok, then it is not ok.

Simple logic says that maintenance facilities are necessary and in fact are delineated I believe in either book 5 or TCS. Spare parts lockers are as important as missile magazines. A second bridge to act as flight control is not specifically ruled against in book 2 and if you would put a flag bridge on a bk2 cruiser design then how can it not then be flight control?

Further, book 2 does not specifically state how crew and passenger lounges are made. Could not the passenger/crew lounge then be used for briefings?


Lastly, build a 5000k cruiser design. Arm it to the teeth. Give it multiple computers. You still have a bunch of space left. Does it then become a supply ship?



And the Ohios make a better Traveller reference if only because their operating environment is openly hostile to the ship as space would be to ships.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

I'm not really saying that if its not written that its not OK, but rather something more in line with LBB0 which kind of says that you should feel free to modify Traveller as you see fit but that;

- the rules are interlinked and that changes in one area may lead to the need for changes in other areas
- the balance of play should not be destroyed
- and all changes should be rational, logical and scientifically sound.

So I wouldn't have any trouble trying to incorporate the ability for a ship to act as a "mother ship" to several smaller craft, as long as you try and address some of the issues that would likely arise in doing so.

One additional big issue to me for using a ship as a "carrier' or "mother ship" would also include giving consideration to how the small craft would likely be operated.

For instance if a "carrier" were to carry say twenty smaller craft, in normal operations how would the smaller craft be utilized. When the carrier jumps into a potentially dangerous system, does it immediately launch all twenty smaller craft, and are they then assumed to be on station fully combat ready until retrieved, or is it assumed that since small craft may have limited facilities and such that crew endurance would be limited, and as such the craft and crew may need to be cycled.

As such, would this mean that maybe you'd only launch a couple "fighters" or such, while keeping others on immediate standby, and a few others on longer term readiness with their crew resting, so that the "fighters" and crew deployed can eventually be cycled back onboard the ship for rest and refit while a different group of craft take their place "deployed".

In situations like that, it would seem to me that it may be that not all "fighters" or "small craft" would always be ready for battle at any given time then, for instance.

As for modern day analogs for starships, as you note a submarine would also be a good example for comparing ship sizes. In general though, since we are talking about "volumes" it doesn't really matter what example is used as a 5000dton submarine would be of overall similar size to a 5000dton amphibious ship. Their weights may be different, but they would both still be an 'envelope" that encloses 70,000 cubic meters.