• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Small Ship fleet sizes

It's not the cost of the crews - it's the people psychologically able to serve. Wet navies have stably limited themselves to about 0.2% of the total population by volunteers, a little more by conscription, with most navies being well under that in peacetime (Also note: Wartime numbers usually draft the other 2% willing for civil service right off the bat...). I doubt space navies will do any better.

We've had that discussion. I'm not convinced that it will be a problem. I am convinced that even if it is a problem, most states will get the crew they need for all the ships they can afford, even if the quality of some won't be tip top.

BTW, 0.2% of one billion is 2 million. You can crew a lot of <5000T ships with 2 million crew.


Hans
 
We've had that discussion. I'm not convinced that it will be a problem. I am convinced that even if it is a problem, most states will get the crew they need for all the ships they can afford, even if the quality of some won't be tip top.

BTW, 0.2% of one billion is 2 million. You can crew a lot of <5000T ships with 2 million crew.


Hans

That would be a near-peak wartime fleet... and all it's support elements, groundsiders, and base personnel. You might see 10% of them as ship crews. Would still be a pretty impressive fleet.

I doubt that even 0.01percent of a billion person world would be willing to go. And, barring credible threats of invasion, I doubt they'd be willing to keep such a fleet in trim...

... Navies, as a rule have a tendency to suffer massive peacetime neglect.
 
That would be a near-peak wartime fleet... and all it's support elements, groundsiders, and base personnel. You might see 10% of them as ship crews. Would still be a pretty impressive fleet.

The oh so rare people who can serve aboard ships wouldn't be wasted on groundside jobs. And whatever the peacetime budget can pay for is the peacetine fleet. That's inherent in the "economics and politics being equal" assumption.

I doubt that even 0.01percent of a billion person world would be willing to go.

What makes you think they would have a choice? Most governments will be willing and able to have a draft.

And, barring credible threats of invasion, I doubt they'd be willing to keep such a fleet in trim...

Obviously they're willing if they're willing to allocate the funds. ;)

... Navies, as a rule have a tendency to suffer massive peacetime neglect.

Sure, wartime navies will be a lot bigger.


Hans
 
The oh so rare people who can serve aboard ships wouldn't be wasted on groundside jobs. And whatever the peacetime budget can pay for is the peacetine fleet. That's inherent in the "economics and politics being equal" assumption.



What makes you think they would have a choice? Most governments will be willing and able to have a draft.



Obviously they're willing if they're willing to allocate the funds. ;)



Sure, wartime navies will be a lot bigger.


Hans

At least half of any non-severely morale-challenged fleet's space capable personnel are dirtside at any given point. Simply because real people need downtime, and it's easiest to simply alternate two crews on each ship. (The USN experiment with 5 crews on 4 ships has been a general morale failure, although meeting the technical success requirements outlined in the proposal.) It's a function of human nature. The problem being, each ship has quirks. Crews trained on one member of a class are far better than fresh when put on another member of the same class, but there's still a learning curve for the individual ship. That seems, from what's been filtering out of the USN DD project, to be the majority of the efficiency gains of an experienced crew.

Realistically, a navy should be buying the biggest ships they can afford, due to scale efficiencies for crew.
 
Population of the Marches is somewhere between 382.4 billion and 512.8 billion, with the Imperial population accounting for 2/3 of that. By your estimate, the high range - 0.2% - therefore hits in around 600 million. Crew of a PF Sloan 5000 dT Fleet Escort is 40. Let's call it 60 for ease of math and some room for error, and say that between ground crews and peacetime budgets, only 5% of the high range is ship crews, instead of 10%. That still gives us crews for half a million 5000 dT ships. That's one ship per 600,000 population.

Cut in in half, cut it to a quarter, that's still a lot of ships for the 272 Imperial worlds. Given the numbers, I really don't think crew is a constraint.
 
Again, I would like to point you guys at looking at tax structures. Leaving out income taxes of all kinds and only taxing import/export should reduce your available navy budgets.

@Carlobrand: even using a Blue/Gold system of double crewing makes it a quarter million ships. Anybody quickly recall the number of Imperial worlds in the Marches? I think even at a quarter mil that makes it about a 1000 ships per Imperial world.

Making Imperial taxation low, while having to spread those taxes and fees over several departments should help.
 
Again, I would like to point you guys at looking at tax structures. Leaving out income taxes of all kinds and only taxing import/export should reduce your available navy budgets.

A tinker that works just as well in Big Ship universes as in Small Ship universes. And given this setting change or not, a Big Ship universe will have a lot fewer ships that a Small Ship universe.


Hans
 
A tinker that works just as well in Big Ship universes as in Small Ship universes. And given this setting change or not, a Big Ship universe will have a lot fewer ships that a Small Ship universe.


Hans


Indeed. For MTU, I think I am going to explore the pop levels adjustment in conjunction with constraining tax rates. Try to get the Imperium into a similar environment with with 17th/18th c British Empire. That should limit the numbers and sizes of ships in the Imperial navy and let Free Traders be more free wheeling concerns.

May take that era of banking too. Hmmm...
 
Again, I would like to point you guys at looking at tax structures. Leaving out income taxes of all kinds and only taxing import/export should reduce your available navy budgets.

@Carlobrand: even using a Blue/Gold system of double crewing makes it a quarter million ships. Anybody quickly recall the number of Imperial worlds in the Marches? I think even at a quarter mil that makes it about a 1000 ships per Imperial world.

Making Imperial taxation low, while having to spread those taxes and fees over several departments should help.

For each credit per person per year, you're looking at 300 thousand megacredits budget, and then you figure the life of a ship is quite a bit more than one year. At a hundred credits a person per year, your fleet comes in somewhere around 300 million to 600 million aggregate tons or more. At only ten credits a person per year, you're still looking at potentially ten thousand Imperial 5000 dTonners. And as I noted, there are 272 Imperial worlds. There are 32 Imperial naval bases.

The first priority in any small-ship universe is to cut the population of the high-pop worlds. Drop the A's to 9's alone, and the Marches population is cut in half. Drop the A's to 9's and drop the 9's to 8's, and the Marches population falls 80%. Do that with your limited budget idea, and ten thousand Imperial warships becomes a couple thousand, average 7-8 squadrons per naval base. That would seem to be an adequate force for 272 worlds.
 
For each credit per person per year, you're looking at 300 thousand megacredits budget, and then you figure the life of a ship is quite a bit more than one year. At a hundred credits a person per year, your fleet comes in somewhere around 300 million to 600 million aggregate tons or more. At only ten credits a person per year, you're still looking at potentially ten thousand Imperial 5000 dTonners. And as I noted, there are 272 Imperial worlds. There are 32 Imperial naval bases.

The first priority in any small-ship universe is to cut the population of the high-pop worlds. Drop the A's to 9's alone, and the Marches population is cut in half. Drop the A's to 9's and drop the 9's to 8's, and the Marches population falls 80%. Do that with your limited budget idea, and ten thousand Imperial warships becomes a couple thousand, average 7-8 squadrons per naval base. That would seem to be an adequate force for 272 worlds.

Wow. First time I have seen it stated like that. Nice way to do it. I would amend it in one fashion: any world that is actually a species homeworld (Major Alien, minor Alien, Human Major, or human Minor), that you leave the population at whatever Pop level that is listed.
 
For each credit per person per year, you're looking at 300 thousand megacredits budget, and then you figure the life of a ship is quite a bit more than one year. At a hundred credits a person per year, your fleet comes in somewhere around 300 million to 600 million aggregate tons or more. At only ten credits a person per year, you're still looking at potentially ten thousand Imperial 5000 dTonners. And as I noted, there are 272 Imperial worlds. There are 32 Imperial naval bases.

The first priority in any small-ship universe is to cut the population of the high-pop worlds. Drop the A's to 9's alone, and the Marches population is cut in half. Drop the A's to 9's and drop the 9's to 8's, and the Marches population falls 80%. Do that with your limited budget idea, and ten thousand Imperial warships becomes a couple thousand, average 7-8 squadrons per naval base. That would seem to be an adequate force for 272 worlds.

Not everyone, and in fact the majority of people, don't purchase imports or export. Done properly, only the affluent actually pay the tax, most likely making the average closer to 1 credit per person.

3000 Billion credits over 272 worlds makes 1.1~ish billion credits per world. After paying for bases, logistical points, and other militarized shore facilities, we should have about 500-800 MCR in ships per planet average.

Of course, the source of my conjectures come from the average import/export taxes paid in the British Empire in the 16th-19th Century. Using Terran historical data lays me open to the normal "this ain't Earth, and is in the Far Future" assaults, but in a small ship universe the regular trade will not be in bulk consumer goods or bulk foodstuffs. It will be in luxury stuffs for those that can afford it.

Toss your tomatoes. My logic works. It works easier if the pops are controlled as well, but it works.
 
Not everyone, and in fact the majority of people, don't purchase imports or export. Done properly, only the affluent actually pay the tax, most likely making the average closer to 1 credit per person.

We talked about that earlier. Changing the taxation rules will work, provided everybody changes[*],but it has nothing to do with big ships vs. small ships. A world doesn't need to have any trade at all to build warships; just a functioning economy.

[*] One big problem with the Very Small Military Budget is that it only works if everybody adheres to it (and what are the odds of that happening?) Which means you can't have any Big Menacing Bad Guy States. Because all it takes is for one state to start increasing its military budget and soon everybody will either follow suit or be conquered and taxed by the conqueror. And we know from Real Life that a society can sustain a peacetime military expenditure of 8-10% of Gross Production. Which brings us right back to those humongous military budgets -- the canonical Imperial average of 3% of GWP is actually implausibly low.

Hans
 
There was something like that in the 16th-19th centuries, ending up in a lot of little wars.

"These things gotta happen every five years or so, ten years. Helps to get rid of the bad blood. Been ten years since the last one. You know, you gotta stop them at the beginning."-Clemenza-The Godfather

The arms races there didn't go too far. At least not for centuries.
 
Not everyone, and in fact the majority of people, don't purchase imports or export. Done properly, only the affluent actually pay the tax, most likely making the average closer to 1 credit per person.

3000 Billion credits over 272 worlds makes 1.1~ish billion credits per world. After paying for bases, logistical points, and other militarized shore facilities, we should have about 500-800 MCR in ships per planet average.

Of course, the source of my conjectures come from the average import/export taxes paid in the British Empire in the 16th-19th Century. Using Terran historical data lays me open to the normal "this ain't Earth, and is in the Far Future" assaults, but in a small ship universe the regular trade will not be in bulk consumer goods or bulk foodstuffs. It will be in luxury stuffs for those that can afford it.

Toss your tomatoes. My logic works. It works easier if the pops are controlled as well, but it works.

First, a math issue: 3000 billion divided by 272 comes in around 11 billion, not 1.1 billion. 3000 billion credits in an Imperial population of 300 billion is ten credits a head, not one.

Your logic works; it's the numbers we're quibbling over. As they say, the devil hides in the details. Britain had imports of around 10 million pounds (the currency, not the weight) in 1760, roughly an eighth of their GDP, against a population of around 8 millionish and at a time when a pound was 2-3 weeks wages to a laborer. I don't know what the import tax might have been overall, but if it were only 1%, that still would have come in over 0.1% of GDP - in Traveller terms, quite a bit more than a single credit a head. I suspect it was quite a bit higher, but they were in the midst of the Seven Years War, so it is likely unrepresentative. As you point out, it's vulnerable to criticism on the "this ain't Earth, and is in the Far Future" basis.

At any rate, I really think 1 credit per person per year's very low for a sector that's fought five wars. I'd really consider 10 to be the low end; that's the price of one ordinary quality meal, per year.

As to your estimate of base construction : a 5000 dTon ship with a crew of 40 is coming in around 3.3 billion credits, over 80 million credits per crewman. My guess is base construction's going to come in a lot lower than 80 million credits per sailor occupying the base. What I get is the ship costs 3.3 billion credits; the crew costs - what, a million credits a year, maybe two? - and there'll be maybe one or two personnel ashore in support roles for every one aboard ship (current USN is 317 thousand personnel with 124 thousand aboard ship), so say triple that for total personnel costs; then shore installations and orbital installations.

The Free Trader's supposed to be good for a 40-year mortgage, but let's say very conservatively that our ship's good for 10 years. Means 330 million credits annually for the ship, maybe 5-6 million for the crew and support personnel. Orbital installation's hard to quantify - they sure don't need jump drives and jump fuel, but they do need things a ship might not have like major repair machinery. Still, you don't need a repair drydock for each and every ship - most ships will do with a place to dock and someplace for the support crew to live. But, let's play conservative and call it 1:1, give us leeway for shore batteries, annual maintenance costs and things we haven't thought of.

Okay, all told then, our ship's costing us somewhere between 400 and 700 million a year - possibly a good deal less if a ship lasts longer than 10 years. Your 3000 billion budget (10 credits a head annually) buys - at its most conservative - five thousand 5000-dT ships if a ship lasts 10 years, plus an equal value in orbital and shorebase construction. More likely 7000 to 8000, and possibly double that if we decide a warship's good for 20 years in service. .

Is still a lot of ships.
 
As you point out, it's vulnerable to criticism on the "this ain't Earth, and is in the Far Future" basis.

Couldn't we say exactly the same on all of our assumptions based on the US navy that are being used here? I mean, I know TCS establishes the fact that navies are based on taxation of populations, but there could be all manner of different funding systems. For example, a social system like the Third Imperium might have navies funded purely by nobles and the incomes from their private estates. Noblesse oblige and aristrocratic rivalry fuelling the creation f impressive war fleets. I'm not saying this is how the 3i operates, because we know it doesn't, but basing funding assumptions on 2013, 1977 or 1756 all have they're drawbacks - they are thousands of years removed from the target date.*

For YTU I think it is not just brave, but healthy to think outside of the box for arguments like this.

*I was trained as an archaeologist where we look at the remains of ancient cultures and say "make no assumptions, don't start comparing this culture to one you know about" !
 
Everything else being equal, it does. If the only thing different between one universe and another is the maximum size of ships, the same political considerations that produced a military budget capable of support one 500,000T dreadnaught will produce a military budget capable of supporting 100 5000T dreadnaughts.

I see where you are coming from, but I think the "everything else equal" assumption makes the argument so narrow as to be useless. For example, we are assuming 100 5,000T dreadnoughts have the same survivability in aggregate against planetary defences as one 500,000T dreadnought. Not necessarily the case. If the attacker/defender balance shifts, the optimal configuration of fleets and the allocation of resources between offensive units and defences shifts.

Also, apologies for alluding to the near-c-rock issue... to answer an earlier poster's question, I'm aware of the RL physics that would make this infeasible, but as already noted, Traveller's reactionless M-drives make it considerably easier. Part of the reason I actually liked HEPLaR! (Not that they are massively realistic either.)
 
Couldn't we say exactly the same on all of our assumptions based on the US navy that are being used here? I mean, I know TCS establishes the fact that navies are based on taxation of populations, but there could be all manner of different funding systems. For example, a social system like the Third Imperium might have navies funded purely by nobles and the incomes from their private estates. ...

Actually, enfeoffment is as legitimate a funding model as any, and pretty neat for Traveller. TCS (among other things) establishes a way to craft a High Guard campaign, not rules for how the Imperium or any other polity outside the Island Clusters does it. The Island Clusters is described, and mapped in Atlas of the Imperium, as a cluster of worlds outside of the Imperium first settled by generation-ships; it's seven parsecs between the closest Island Cluster world and Imperial system.

As far as I know - though I could be wrong, I'm no expert on all details of canon - nothing stops you from deciding that the Imperial fleet is funded by granting fiefs to nobles with the accompanying responsibility to raise squadrons from the incomes generated by those feifs. And then separately you'd have the colonial squadrons, raised by "(i)ndividual worlds with sufficient resources ..."

That's a clever way of looking at it. Given the breakdown described in MegaTraveller, where local fleets threw their loyalty behind Dulinor or Margaret or some other power rather than continuing to operate within the chain of command while the nobles worked things out, that's actually a pretty reasonable way to look at it - it would explain the conduct of the fleet a lot better. Even if we don't say the ships themselves are funded by the nobles, they could be the source of funding for personnel and administration.

So, for example, the 212th at Rhylanor would be the responsibility of the Duke of Rhylanor, responsible for maintaining the 212th's administrative and support infrastructure and a flag squadron, with subsidiary counts and barons providing additional battle squadrons and destroyer squadrons. It'd require quite an impressive feif to fund a trillion credit battle squadron, but on the other hand the Imperial fleet as shown in several sources is smaller than we'd expect from the available tax base.

I like that. I might just borrow it.
 
I can't take credit, I was thinking of the noble Great Houses of Dune, where each noble house funds its own fleets and small armies, all dressed in the livery of the house. The Imperium in Dune has no other standing army or Imperial fleet AFAIK.
 
Back
Top