So Where Do the Express Boat Tenders Stay

[whartung]

A lot can happen in 387 years worth of time ...

Indeed it can.

even in a place as stagnant as the Third Imperium.

But apparently, it didn't.

Do what you like in YTU. In OTU, XBoats are going to XBoat.

Feel free to create an exposé on why the OTU has had TL-13 for over 400 years, but it has not propagated universally save for the most backwards of systems. Perhaps the knowledge transfer has been relying on the XBoat network, and that's why it's taking so long.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Considering the IISS and the megacorps each have their own faster internal courier networks...

Those in power (Emperor, peerage, megacorps, etc...) want to know what is going on before its members/clients. You cannot control what you don't know. What you know before anyone else is an ace card.


Forewarned is forearmed. Four armed, you're an alien.

But who wants to be half an octopus?

 

[mike wightman]

According to Agent of the Imperium the Imperial government has had jump 6 capability since the 700s - I'll check the exact date.

The point that the government and megacorps can operate their own jump 6 couriers is a good one - they have a vested interest in getting the information first.

Early OTU fluff mention an upgrade to the xboat network to jump 6 using drop tank equipped boats. Then suddenly sabotage happens. I used to think this was likely the Ine Givar and other factions out on the frontier not wanting faster communication, and therefore increased Imperial control, but this thread has me thinking that the megacorps and frontier dukes may well not want the unwashed masses to have a jump 6 network as they would lose an advantage.

 

[Spinward Flow]

According to Agent of the Imperium the Imperial government has had jump 6 capability since the 700s - I'll check the exact date.

This is where we start running into CT starship construction version issues.

Per LBB5 you have to have TL=15 in order to have Jump-6 drives.
Per LBB2 you can have Jump-6 standard drives as early as TL=9 (C drive in a 100 ton hull).
For both starship construction systems, you need to have a model/6 computer to control Jump-6.
The model/6 computer type requires TL=12.

So in all versions of CT starship construction, only LBB2 standard drives permits construction of a Jump-6 starship at TL=12 ... which theoretically could easily have been the top end of Imperial technology in 718, so the notion is certainly a plausible one.

Just for fun, I threw some standard drives into the TCS Ship Designs site to test how small a starship could be and still support Jump-6 while fitting everything needed into the hull. Answer ... with standard drives ... 200 tons.

---

Imperial Express, Fast Express
200 ton, TL 12 Civilian Design, 196.00 MCr
4 crew (Command: 1+0, Engineers: 1+1, Medic: 0+1)
no passengers

__Ton._____MCr.____EP.____
| ___.__ | _22.00 | _.__ | Cone, streamlined, fuel scoops
| _20.00 | __1.00 | _.__ | bridge 
| __7.00 | _55.00 | 5.00 | computer model 6
| _35.00 | _60.00 | _.__ | drive jump F #6
| __3.00 | __8.00 | _.__ | drive maneouver B #2
| _19.00 | _48.00 | _.__ | power plant F #6
| ___.__ | ___.__ | 4.00 | agility #2
| _60.00 | ___.__ | _.__ | fuel, PP endurance 4 weeks (24 weeks powered down)
| _40.00 | ___.__ | _.__ | fuel, jump range 2 parsecs
| _16.00 | __2.00 | _.__ | staterooms  x4
‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒
| 200.00 | 196.00 | 9.00 EP used, PP generates 12.00 EPs

197.96 MCr (first ship, includes architect fees) built in 48 weeks
156.80 MCr (20% discount in volume, TCS) built in 39 weeks
CT Ship Designer by Matt. Visit https://tca-2014-12.herokuapp.com

---

Obviously there is some room to play with the specifications (dropping down to 199 tons removes both engineers and the medic, saving 12 tons worth of stateroom space and life support+salary costs). Additionally, as a "pure" LBB2 design, it has no fuel purification plant (which requires 6 tons at TL=12) and there is no cargo space ... the starship is entirely dedicated to hauling data, not physical cargo (and the model/6 could easily store all the data you want to transmit).

With no revenue generating capacity integral to the starship itself, such ships could only be operated at a direct loss (because the ships themselves do not earn revenue) ... cue the tax write off shell game. However, the advance notice of interstellar information such ships would be carrying could potentially reap incredible rewards "off book" from the starships themselves, mainly through insider trading opportunities.

Knowledge Is Power ... and forewarned is forearmed (and all that).

Note that such a TL=12 LBB2 starship would cost slightly more than three Type-Y Yachts to buy, so definitely not something for the "low end information broker" racket.

The point that the government and megacorps can operate their own jump 6 couriers is a good one - they have a vested interest in getting the information first.

More like they would be the only ones able to buy and operate such courier ships at a loss AND have the means to profit from the information that such courier ships would be carrying.

Early OTU fluff mention an upgrade to the xboat network to jump 6 using drop tank equipped boats. Then suddenly sabotage happens. I used to think this was likely the Ine Givar and other factions out on the frontier not wanting faster communication, and therefore increased Imperial control, but this thread has me thinking that the megacorps and frontier dukes may well not want the unwashed masses to have a jump 6 network as they would lose an advantage.

Everything about the Jump-6 XBoat Network upgrade flows from the Fifth Frontier War boxed set.

The inevitable conclusion that I drew from that info was that the Jump-6 XBoat upgrade "threatened" the territorial gains of the Zhodani Consulate in the Spinward Marches, since it would (in effect) draw the "fringes" of the Third Imperium "closer" to the Core in terms of communication time delays, allowing the Third Imperium to respond more quickly to any ... pressure ... put on their borders in the Spinward Marches.

In other words, for the Zhodani Consulate to continue expanding to Trailing and Rimward through the Spinward Marches, they had to do it "now" (in 1107) rather than later once the Jump-6 XBoat Network came online. The Zhodani Consulate, through allies, agents, traitors and all manner of infiltration arranged for the insurgencies at Efate/Regina and Extolay/Lanth (involving supporting the Ine Givar), in addition to industrial sabotage and a lot of other "mischief making" in preparation for what turned out to be the Fifth Frontier War ... which kind of caught the Imperial Navy off guard due to incompetent leadership (that the Duke of Regina was forced to overrule and get replaced in order to win the war).

So the whole L-Hyd Drop Tanks on XBoats thing was merely one of the contributing factors to precipitating the Fifth Frontier War. There were other factors, of course ... but the "threat" of a Jump-6 XBoat Network coming online in the future certainly helped to precipitate the march towards the sneak attack at Ruie and the declaration of the Fifth Frontier War.

 

[whartung]

__Ton._____MCr.____EP.____
| ___.__ | _22.00 | _.__ | Cone, streamlined, fuel scoops
| _20.00 | __1.00 | _.__ | bridge
| __7.00 | _55.00 | 5.00 | computer model 6
| _35.00 | _60.00 | _.__ | drive jump F #6
| __3.00 | __8.00 | _.__ | drive maneouver B #2
| _19.00 | _48.00 | _.__ | power plant F #6
| ___.__ | ___.__ | 4.00 | agility #2
| _60.00 | ___.__ | _.__ | fuel, PP endurance 4 weeks (24 weeks powered down)
| _40.00 | ___.__ | _.__ | fuel, jump range 2 parsecs
| _16.00 | __2.00 | _.__ | staterooms  x4
‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒
| 200.00 | 196.00 | 9.00 EP used, PP generates 12.00 EPs

We have tables now! They work much better than the old forums.

FYI

Ton.	MCr.	EP.
	22.00		Cone, streamlined, fuel scoops
20.00	1.00		bridge
7.00	55.00	5.00	computer model 6
35.00	60.00		drive jump F #6
3.00	8.00		drive maneouver B #2
19.00	48.00		power plant F #6
		4.00	agility #2
60.00			fuel, PP endurance 4 weeks (24 weeks powered down)
40.00			fuel, jump range 2 parsecs
16.00	2.00		staterooms x4
200.00	196.00		9.00 EP used, PP generates 12.00 EPs

 

[Spinward Flow]

fuel, jump range 2 parsecs

DERP.
I knew it was too good to be true.
2 parsecs of jump fuel isn't enough for a Jump-6 starship.

Well, since the XBoats use LBB2.77 to achieve their performance, guess there can't be too much complaining about using LBB2.77 for a standard drive Jump-6 "cram down" starship that actually has 6 parsecs of range (instead of only 2). Still ... it really pains me to have to do this since it really does feel like cheating the rules in order to make the idea work.

---

Imperial Express, Fast Express (LBB2.77)
400 ton, TL=12 Civilian Design, 272.50 MCr
6 crew (Pilot, Navigator, 3x Engineers, Medic)
no passengers

__Ton._____MCr.____EP.____
| ___.__ | _44.00 | _.__ | cone, streamlined, fuel scoops
| _20.00 | __2.00 | _.__ | bridge 
| __7.00 | _55.00 | 5.00 | computer model 6
| _65.00 | 120.00 | _.__ | drive jump M #6
| __7.00 | _16.00 | _.__ | drive maneouver D #2
| _13.00 | _32.00 | _.__ | power plant D #2
| _20.00 | ___.__ | _.__ | fuel, PP endurance 4 weeks (8 weeks powered down)
| 240.00 | ___.__ | _.__ | fuel, jump range 6 parsecs
| _24.00 | __3.00 | _.__ | staterooms  x6
| __4.00 | __0.50 | _.__ | workshop: extensive data banks
‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒
| 400.00 | 272.50 | 5.00 EP used, PP generates 8.00 EPs

275.23 MCr (first ship, includes architect fees) built in 36 weeks
218.00 MCr (20% discount in volume, TCS) built in 29 weeks
CT Ship Designer by Matt. Visit https://tca-2014-12.herokuapp.com

---

I had 4 tons left over, so figured a "workshop" of extensive data banks would make the most sense to use up all of the available 400 tons of custom hull. Per LBB2.77 p10, all custom hulls take 36 weeks to build regardless of tonnage.

Definitely a "Bah Humbug" kitbash of a starship design that cherry picks the rules set needed to exist ... and now costing the price of 5.5 Type-Y Yachts for 2x the tonnage of a single 200 ton Type-Y. Quite the expensive starship (and crew) to not generate any revenue with (directly).

 

[Grav_Moped]

1. Drop tanks.
2. A J-6 XBoat is "possible" in 400Td in LBB2 '81 without drop tanks if you provide for only 1.1 weeks of power plant fuel (1 week +10% for longest possible normal jump duration)*. There are 2.5Td left over -- not enough for either a "mail bin" or a maneuver drive, let alone both. The 6-person crew is in double-occupancy.
It'd be TL-12.

Economically viable? Ha. It's what you have to build if you need a Jump-6 information network, though. And if you need one of those, it's worth it.

That said, if you are using fewer than 3 on a link (one arriving every 4.6 days or so), it's probably cheaper -- and no slower, when you take latency into account -- to use 4 J-3 ships instead.

------------------------------------------
*Some people don't like this rules interpretation, and I get that. The rules as written say it needs a month worth of fuel that simply won't fit into the hull, so it's an illegal build as a Jump-6 ship. (It is legal as a J-4 ship with oversized drives, extra fuel, and an unnecessarily large computer.)
This is despite the fact that the XBoat mission profile (jumping between tankers/tenders, no maneuver) does not provide any way to actually use the superfluous 42.5 tons of fuel mandated by the rules...

 

[Grav_Moped]

It might also be possible in T5.1 at TL-12 using TL Stage Effects ("Experimental"), but it'd only make sense on J-6 segments of the network due to the hideous expense and operational constraints. (I haven't actually tried to build it under those rules.)

 

[Grav_Moped]

I vaguely recall that you can build J-6/0G in High Guard '80 at TL-15 in no less than 135Td without drop tanks (don't have my notes handy).
You can build J6/1G at 199Td (crew=pilot, gunner in double occupancy plus half a stateroom, includes one turret and a fuel refinery).

 

[mike wightman]

A couple of things - the Zhodani have no interest in expansion into the Spinward Marchs, all of the frontier wars were to curtail Imperial expansion (until the retcon for the motive behind the FFW).

In Agent there is a jump 5 IISS 40kt cruiser operating in the year 426.

The jump 6 courier is mentioned in the year 736.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on where the resource bottlenecks are; could be any number of supply chain squeezes that freeze jump factor six ecks boat adoption, whether organic or artificial.

Budget might be sufficient to maintain and repair the network, expansion slowed, and no equipment upgrades.

 

[Spinward Flow]

1. Drop tanks.

With L-Hyd Drop Tanks at TL=12 you can "repurpose" a Type-S Scout/Courier hull into a customized J6 Courier and make everything fit into a 100 ton hull.

---

J6 Courier, Fast Express (LBB2.77)
100 ton, TL 12 Civilian Design, 111.60 MCr
2 crew (Pilot/Navigator, Engineer/Gunner)

__Ton._____MCr.____EP.____
| ___.__ | _11.00 | _.__ | Cone (min 20 MCr), streamlined, fuel scoops
| _20.00 | __0.50 | _.__ | bridge
| __7.00 | _55.00 | 5.00 | computer model/6
| _20.00 | _30.00 | _.__ | drive jump C #6
| __1.00 | __4.00 | _.__ | drive maneouver A #2
| __4.00 | __8.00 | _.__ | power plant A #2
| _20.00 | ___.__ | _.__ | fuel, PP endurance 4 weeks (8 weeks powered down)
| _10.00 | ___.__ | _.__ | fuel, jump range 1 parsec
| __1.00 | __0.60 | _.__ | hard point x1 with double turret
| ___.__ | __0.25 | _.__ | sand caster (mixed turret) (turret) #3 x1
| ___.__ | __0.75 | _.__ | HE missile (mixed turret) (turret) #1 x1
| __8.00 | __1.00 | _.__ | staterooms  x2
| __5.00 | ___.__ | _.__ | mail
| __4.00 | __0.50 | _.__ | workshop: extensive data banks
‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒‒
| 100.00 | 111.60 | 5.00 EP used, PP generates 2.00 EPs

112.72 MCr (first ship, includes architect fees) built in 36 weeks
89.28 MCr (20% discount in volume, TCS) built in 29 weeks
CT Ship Designer by Matt. Visit https://tca-2014-12.herokuapp.com

---

Fuel tankage is basically a Type-J Seeker style of 30 tons, which can trade operational endurance (28 days) for jump range (2 parsecs instead of just 1 parsec).
Use of 50 ton L-Hyd Drop Tanks enables Jump-6 performance (MCr 0.06 per drop tank, not including fuel).

50 ton L-Hyd Drop Tank absent: 1J2 range, 2G, 14 days endurance (no jump governor installed)
50 ton L-Hyd Drop Tank retained: 4J1 range, 1G, 28 days endurance
50 ton L-Hyd Drop Tank dropped: 1J6 range, 2G (after drop), 28 days endurance

The whole point and purpose of this particular design is to be able to masquerade as a "boring, stock and standard" Type-S Scout/Courier (that no one looks twice at) with a number of major modifications "under the bulkheads" to both enable and perpetuate the impression that only minor mission specific modifications have been made to the basic hull (when in fact, the modifications are relatively extensive to accommodate the much larger jump-C drive and model/6 computer). Note that after a Jump-6 breakout, the J6 Fast Courier would be almost indistinguishable from a Type-S Scout/Courier on sensor returns (right tonnage, right hull configuration, dual turret, 2G maneuver drive, power plant-2 readings on neutrino sensors, etc.).

The REAL bonus for such a ship conversion would be retaining the original Scout/Courier sensor systems (because, of course...) and managing the trick that seals the deal ... securing jump-C drives that are "scout" rated for tolerance to unrefined fuel (using LBB2.77 rules) so as to not need a fuel purification plant.

Once I realized that a 30 tons internal fuel tankage plus 50 tons L-Hyd drop tank enabled the desired performance at TL=12 ... I figured that spending the remaining 14 tons of space on a dual turret (1 ton), a stateroom for a gunner (4 tons), a mail vault (5 tons) and a workshop: extensive data banks (4 tons) made sense for such a fast J6 courier starship, at which point everything fell into place in a "that feels about right" kind of way for clandestine service use (either Imperial Nobility and/or Megacorporation style).

Note that while this arrangement is "legal" under LBB2.77 rules (with a bit of help from LBB A5 Trillion Credit Squadron for the L-Hyd Drop Tank rules, which theoretically require TL=12 to enable anyway) ... I personally consider this starship design to be an ugly ugly hack of the starship design rules, bordering on abuse of those rules.

 

[whulorigan]

In Agent there is a jump 5 IISS 40kt cruiser operating in the year 426.

The jump 6 courier is mentioned in the year 736.

Just for sake of those who may not have access to T⁵:

At TL-13 Standard:

• A Standard-tech J4-Boat can be deployed
• A Early-tech J5-boat can be developed
• A Prototype-tech J6-boat can be developed

At TL-14 Standard:

• A Standard-tech J5-Boat could be deployed
• A Early-tech J6-boat can be developed

At TL-15 Standard:

• A Standard-tech J6-Boat could be deployed

Canonically, the Imperium was founded in year "0" having recently emerged into TL-12 and having developed certain non-standard technologies (i.e. Fusion Plus / Cold Fusion modules) that gave them an edge. The Imperium reached soild TL-13 by about the year 300, and reached TL-14 by about the year 700, and emerged into TL-15 by the end of the Solomani Rim War in the 1000's.

Arbellatra established the X-Boat network duirng her reign in the second quarter of the 600's (late TL-13), just before the emergency of the Imperium into a "standard" TL-14 base.[/SUP]

 

[mike wightman]

A '77 design doesn't need a model 6 computer, it just needs a computer with the capacity to run the jump 6 program, which is only 2 spaces.
Drop tanks don't have a TL requirement of 12 in TCS - the TL of 12 comes from 79 edition HG.

 

[mike wightman]

Is it better to now view the Imperial TL dates as that of widespread civilian use, since the military appears to be a TL ahead at least (just look at the number of TL16 industrial worlds during the MT era).

 

[Spinward Flow]

Still can't get over the nonsensical notion behind the question/answer ...

Q: When is a Jump-4 NOT a Jump-4?
A: When it's a Jump-11 to transit 4 parsecs The Dumb Way Around™ by J3+1+2+1+4=11.

Can't be a limitation of the technology.
I mean ... Jump-4 is Jump-4, right?

I mean, a LBB A1 Kinunir with its Jump-4 drive can jump from Strouden to Carey in a single jump, right?
Likewise, any other starship with a Jump-4 capability can jump directly from Strouden to Carey in a single jump, right?
It's not like there is a "feature of jump space terrain" that prevents a starship (any starship) with Jump-4 capability from jumping directly from Strouden to Carey in a single jump. Nor is there a technological limitation of some kind ... because Jump-4 is Jump-4.

Anywhere within 4 parsecs is within range of a single jump using a Jump-4 drive (given sufficient fuel to make the jump) ... regardless of starship type, tonnage or hull configuration ... because Jump-4 is Jump-4.

That's why the J4 map for Strouden/Lunion/Spinward Marches looks like this ...

... because with a Jump-4 drive, a starship departing Strouden can jump to ANY of the systems shown in a single Jump-4.

The only "limitation" a Jump-4 Express Boat has is that the origin and destination systems need to be on the Express Boat Network and within 4 parsecs of each other ... so as to be recovered by an Express Tender after breakout from jump.

So from Strouden ... the other systems within Jump-4 range that are also on the Express Network (as shown above) are:

• Lunion
• Shirene
• Persephone
• Resten
• Capon
• Carey

 

[Spinward Flow]

Canonically, the Imperium was founded in year "0" having recently emerged into TL-12 and having developed certain non-standard technologies (i.e. Fusion Plus / Cold Fusion modules) that gave them an edge. The Imperium reached soild TL-13 by about the year 300, and reached TL-14 by about the year 700, and emerged into TL-15 by the end of the Solomani Rim War in the 1000's.

Request admin staff copy this tidbit of information to the Reference Forum here at CotI so it doesn't get lost again (not all of us have access to T⁵).

Prior to this post, I had never before encountered a tech evolution timeline for the Third Imperium. It would definitely be something useful to know if a Referee wants to use a "historical setting" and adjust tech levels downwards accordingly for a campaign. Likewise, it also gives a sense of just how much of a "tech barrier" the Distant Fringe setting is up against with their J2 and TL=12 limits so far away from the rest of Charted Space.

 

[whulorigan]

Request admin staff copy this tidbit of information to the Reference Forum here at CotI so it doesn't get lost again (not all of us have access to T⁵).

Prior to this post, I had never before encountered a tech evolution timeline for the Third Imperium. It would definitely be something useful to know if a Referee wants to use a "historical setting" and adjust tech levels downwards accordingly for a campaign. Likewise, it also gives a sense of just how much of a "tech barrier" the Distant Fringe setting is up against with their J2 and TL=12 limits so far away from the rest of Charted Space.

Actually, only the TL stage effects (Prototype/Early/Standard, etc.) in my post above are from T⁵. The part you quoted above about Imperial history is from prior canon, and I believe is noted in Don McKinney's Timeline of Charted Space.

 

[whartung]

It's not like there is a "feature of jump space terrain" that prevents a starship (any starship) with Jump-4 capability from jumping directly from Strouden to Carey in a single jump. Nor is there a technological limitation of some kind ... because Jump-4 is Jump-4.

But it's not about Jump-4. It's about policy.

You skipped the part where when an XBoat pilot jumps a ship from Strouden to Carey, within a month he's been fired, stripped of his pension, arrested for misappropriation of Imperial property and his wife and children are out alone, in the dark, on the frozen prairie.

When the Commander says Jump, the XBoat Pilot says "Which way?". And the Commander points to Shirene.

He likes his pension too.

We see that here too. Try as I might, despite the big turny thing the driver holds on too, I can't convince the bus driver to take me to the door of my house.

 

[Grav_Moped]

But it's not about Jump-4. It's about policy.

This.

An XBoat link there is certainly possible. For some reason, there isn't one. Notably, it wouldn't cut the message trip time between Lunion/Strouden and Mora/Mora. It would, however, take one week off the Mora/Mora to Glisten/Glisten run.

Someone could try to set up a private J-4 communication link across there, if they had access to sufficient capital. Perhaps someone already has. Perhaps someone tried, and found out the hard way why there isn't one, whatever that reason happens to be. Politics? Megacorporate advantage? Could be either, both, or something else.

Also, even 2x J-2 across that gap (via Pimane/Mora) would save 9 weeks. Even counting latency, a few Type S Scout/Couriers running in a loop would provide faster service than going the long way. Maybe they do, and it doesn't show on the network because it doesn't require XBoats.