Not bad.
I think the metaphor would be more like spotter planes off battleships or the battlecruiser squadrons of the WWI RN.
If we are talking planetary sensors pretty easy to tie them to best computer models.
T4 Only: Some people say no stealth in space, a discussion.
- Thread starter warwizard
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I think the metaphor would be more like spotter planes off battleships or the battlecruiser squadrons of the WWI RN.
If we are talking planetary sensors pretty easy to tie them to best computer models.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Deep (space) meson sites.
Deep (space) meson sighting.
Deep (space) meson sighting.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
The real fun begins when you start "peeling the onion layers" of possibility around the concept.
You've got shooters.
You've got forward observers.
And there's also room for recon detectors.
So you can use "low computer" enabled craft (such as small craft fighters) to fan out and "sweep" through volumes of space, searching for contact(s) with hostile forces. IF there is a detection, that information gets handed off to a craft with a more powerful computer to do a follow up to acquire "target solution" forward observer data ... which can then be passed off to the shooters to create a firing solution in real time.
The trick here is that the "disposable" small craft are not the "real" threat in this scenario. It's the follow up AFTER being detected that can "bring the pain" of spinal mount incoming fire in a "surprising" way.
The scouting function becomes more of an issue if one side or both actually wants to close to long range/900000 km, whether my version or the CT sensor RAW version.
That’s because of that darn retained momentum/velocity and optimal ranges, even with the classic -2/-5 in play. Go too fast and yes you will close to optimal beams but you will also sail past and have fewer turns of damage to deal out.
Missile closing vee will also affect outcomes if using something like my variant or the missile supplement.
So angle of approach and acquired vee is a huge tactical variable, and the side that has scouting superiority will have opportunities to choose an optimal maneuver plan suitable to the correlation of forces and objectives.
Now then to circle back to the original topic, if we have millions of kilometer detection much less AU range, there is no scouting game, only special forces deception.
And that’s fine, we can make space combat a different thing, doesn’t have to be naval analogues. I’m just not sure you have a game beyond the rare brilliant deception.
That’s because of that darn retained momentum/velocity and optimal ranges, even with the classic -2/-5 in play. Go too fast and yes you will close to optimal beams but you will also sail past and have fewer turns of damage to deal out.
Missile closing vee will also affect outcomes if using something like my variant or the missile supplement.
So angle of approach and acquired vee is a huge tactical variable, and the side that has scouting superiority will have opportunities to choose an optimal maneuver plan suitable to the correlation of forces and objectives.
Now then to circle back to the original topic, if we have millions of kilometer detection much less AU range, there is no scouting game, only special forces deception.
And that’s fine, we can make space combat a different thing, doesn’t have to be naval analogues. I’m just not sure you have a game beyond the rare brilliant deception.
I don't know if it would be interesting or just frustrating.
But the idea of flying in and out of not just weapons range, but sensor range. Where you get a bit too far and the screens go dark, instead of a blip representing the other craft, you now have an ever increasing are of uncertainty about where the should COULD be that you'll need to track down.
The issue there is if something is trying to "get away", it's much easier. For a combat assault, it's less of a problem, since those tend to be for fixed targets. If the aggressor flies by, just wait -- it'll be back.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Here is another you better think this one through if you go hardcore multi-AU detection/tracking.
That long range flip and burn handy dandy chart with Gs, formula and travel times implies something we usually don’t look at too closely- during the mid point of those journeys the ships are going FAST.
With CT sensors or something like them, the midpoints implied on the chart are for all practical purposes like being in jumpspace, a safe zone. Just highly unlikely anyone else is going to be along exactly the same path at exactly the right time to pick out at 2LS or some similar value.
But with an Atomic Rockets detection set, now that portion of real space journey is exceedingly hazardous.
If there is any kind of kinetic impact mechanism (and there should be if going all real physics), a head on impact with a missile is going to Really Hurt. And that much worse if the intercepting fleet is accelerating as well.
A small missile fleet going up against an onrushing invasion fleet will be equally detected and assuredly destroyed, but do damage all out of proportion to their size. We’re talking scouts doing spinal or nuclear weapons level of damage.
Looks to me like something from the comic Albedo re space combat.
But scaling down to ACS, even such a head on pass between pirates and prey/LE would now be doable and extraordinarily lethal unless something could be worked out.
Another aspect is there is no sneaking around or smuggling except for bribes and extraordinary deception. Or pirate bases except between systems in Oort clouds or brown dwarfs.
Jump is almost the only way to surprise reliably.
If that sounds great, go for it, but another example of how changing one thing in the same vein as FTL comms changes an environment geared for adventures.
That long range flip and burn handy dandy chart with Gs, formula and travel times implies something we usually don’t look at too closely- during the mid point of those journeys the ships are going FAST.
With CT sensors or something like them, the midpoints implied on the chart are for all practical purposes like being in jumpspace, a safe zone. Just highly unlikely anyone else is going to be along exactly the same path at exactly the right time to pick out at 2LS or some similar value.
But with an Atomic Rockets detection set, now that portion of real space journey is exceedingly hazardous.
If there is any kind of kinetic impact mechanism (and there should be if going all real physics), a head on impact with a missile is going to Really Hurt. And that much worse if the intercepting fleet is accelerating as well.
A small missile fleet going up against an onrushing invasion fleet will be equally detected and assuredly destroyed, but do damage all out of proportion to their size. We’re talking scouts doing spinal or nuclear weapons level of damage.
Looks to me like something from the comic Albedo re space combat.
But scaling down to ACS, even such a head on pass between pirates and prey/LE would now be doable and extraordinarily lethal unless something could be worked out.
Another aspect is there is no sneaking around or smuggling except for bribes and extraordinary deception. Or pirate bases except between systems in Oort clouds or brown dwarfs.
Jump is almost the only way to surprise reliably.
If that sounds great, go for it, but another example of how changing one thing in the same vein as FTL comms changes an environment geared for adventures.
Yea, it's a two-fold problem.
The first, the high mid-course speeds, is why it's not practical to engage fleets in deep space. Typically, the fleets are there for something Not The Other fleet (the planet, the high port, some other static piece of infrastructure). With the high speeds, you have "one shot" and off they go.
That said, this high closing velocities make the ships difficult to turn. Combined with your point about "Really Hurt" the question becomes one of perhaps placing some kind of "shot gun" cloud of debris in their path that they have to fly through, with potentially disastrous results.
I honestly don't know how practical that is to pull off. In the large, the approaching ships are hard to turn, but in the small ("small"), a 1/2 a G Turn is 30Kkm displacement. That's a pretty big cloud of debris.
You could try missile volleys, something that can seek that "last mile" to intercept. Not sure how well that works either. Those closing speeds are really fast, and they dramatically lower response time, even for automation (which is partly the impetus for the pumped laser warhead model, making that "last mile" at light speed).
It's less the speed they're at and more the distance from the observer. If you know the position (and have a previous position to calculate current speed and vector from), given the known acceleration potential of the target it doesn't take too much computer power to predict where it will be; using an Active Electromagnetic Sensor Array (AESA) it would be possible to scan the sphere of potential positions. The problem for the tracker is that as the distance increases, so does the time delay and the size of the sphere that needs to be scanned.
Talking about the high speed that ships will have at the 50D mark, it would be interesting to see how much frontal (and rear for after the flip) armour would be needed to protect the ship from any micrometeorites it might hit.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
This is probably where torpedo boat swarms come in.
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The reason I specified T4 is that the FF&S rules give good design sequenses with modifiers to signature based on the design parameters, and the sensors also get detection modifiers based on tech level and the surface area of the detector. Some of the things I have come up with are 1 m3 missiles (small hull surface area (less signature)) with a small power plant < 1 MW> again small heat signature, HEPLAR engine and military ultra black hull coatings and a nice nuclear laser warhead. so they have little reflection of energy from the hull (radar, lidar), and they do not have to get all that close. By compairison that 10 displacement ton fighter is 140 times larger has > 100 M/W of power plant, and the cost of military ultra black on that big of a hull is so high that you can have two fighters with only black hull coatings instead of one with military ultra black. I've done several design challenges with my sons and then had battles using RAW in the FF&S. The battles were refereed by one person and fought by the other two, using three maps, native, intruder and referee. There we saw remote entry of the scouts, launching of highly stealthed drones to get sensors in system to look for fixed station active sensor locations, analysis of the coverage maps of these fixed known sensors. Noting that these known positions tended to cause a forcing effect on the approach vectors of the different classes of drones, small craft, corvette, destroyer, cruiser, battleship excetera. So you have a period of cat and mouse trying to find the enemy sensor platforms prior to bringing in the main force. The enemy may design the location of the sensors to leave a "blind spot" that is invifing forces to jump to that location.<que the mine field> Once we start getting detections then there is the problem of identifying what is being detected, even if it is just a sensor platform, it's vector does tend to focus your attention in that direction and possibly trigger the native player to unmask some active sensors to find out WTF that is.
Eventually somebody is sure enough of the identy of a contact that the missiles start flying, additional sensors go active and the intruder executes the maneuver plan to draw the missiles and followup missiles onto an expendible unit while the main force continues to sneak towards it's goal for this mission.
In short it is really fun and you really wish you could do this in 3-D.
Eventually somebody is sure enough of the identy of a contact that the missiles start flying, additional sensors go active and the intruder executes the maneuver plan to draw the missiles and followup missiles onto an expendible unit while the main force continues to sneak towards it's goal for this mission.
In short it is really fun and you really wish you could do this in 3-D.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I have sort of been reading the thread, but I have couple of questions. How long will it take to do a 360 degree spherical scan to a distance of 1 (one) light second? How large would the antenna have to be to get a reasonable location at the distance? By reasonable, I mean with an accuracy of 1 kilometer in range and 100 meters in angular bearing.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Then add that the detected object is moving at a velocity of 40 kilometers per second in an unknown direction.
Marcatlas
SOC-12
At TL of Earth year 2000 Using equipment at your local retail store) A full spherical sky search is 41,000 square degrees. A wide angle lens will cover about 100 square degrees (a typical 35mm SLR personal camera is about 1 square degree); you'll want overlap, so call it 480 exposures for a full sky search, with each exposure taking about 350 megapixels.
Estimated exposure time is about 30 seconds per 100 square degrees of sky looking for a room temp ship out to 1/10th A.U. (5 light seconds) So, 480 / 2 is 240 minutes, or about 4 HOURS for a complete sky survey.
Of course with multiple sensors (cameras) and Trav star ship TL equipment this would be MUCH shorter scan time and processing time...
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Fun fact: the Euclid space telescope (recently launched by ESA is going to be scanning 15,000 degrees2 of the sky for mapping purposes, not 41,000 degrees2 ... even though the telescope was launched into space.
Why 15,000 and not 41,000?
Because there's this thing called the Milky Way Galaxy that occupies a lot of the available sky ... and that galactic disk is filled with ... clutter and noise (dust, gas, stars 'n' stuff) ... that the Euclid space telescope cannot "detect through" to see what's beyond the Milky Way Galaxy in those directions. There's also stellar streams (more dust, gas and clutter) in directions not aligned with the galactic disk) that create problems for data gathering in those directions for the telescope's sensors.
And here's what that 15,000 degrees2 of sky area to be surveyed looks like.
All of the grey blocky patches are going to be where the Euclid space telescope can survey (the universe beyond our galaxy) usefully.
Guess what.
That "Milky Way Galaxy" stuff isn't all uniformly below 3º kelvin as a "radiation background" when sensors point in that direction.
Look in different directions, see different stuff.
There "are differences in terrain types" in space (so to speak).
My point being that if you want to camouflage your craft in space, using the "background clutter" of the Milky Way Galaxy is one possibility. It requires a "helpful orientation" between sensors and craft wanting to evade detection ... but then, so does "attacking out of the Sun" ...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It also requires you to cool your ship to 3 kelvin.
Sounds like a heat shield oriented towards the detecting ship is in order.
Marcatlas
SOC-12
Like what?
