Doggo section?
I can't seem to find the computer range rule in book 2 either.
T4 Only: Some people say no stealth in space, a discussion.
- Thread starter warwizard
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I can't seem to find the computer range rule in book 2 either.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That's because computer model doesn't affect sensor ranges in LBB2, and LBB5 doesn't mention detection at all.
One of my earliest contributions to these boards back in 2004 or so was a set of sensor rules based on Star Cruiser mixed with LBB2 detection ranges and LBB5 computer model.
Can't find the thread now but I likely have the rules saved somewhere.
One of my earliest contributions to these boards back in 2004 or so was a set of sensor rules based on Star Cruiser mixed with LBB2 detection ranges and LBB5 computer model.
Can't find the thread now but I likely have the rules saved somewhere.
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Doggo is the 1/8 rule he listed.
I said I have it, so not RAW, IMTU.
The question that keeps being not discussed is what actionable changes to the game could or should be made, and what can be done to reconcile more realistic physics with an entertaining take.
I’m offering my mechanics as a jumpstart to that part of the topic. Won’t work for a lot of people and that’s fine, let’s get other concepts going.
That's a real trick.
There's a couple of real problems, IMHO.
The first is no terrain. Most of the time, it's just an empty map between the ships. The impact of that is it reduces the necessity to maneuver.
Just close and get it over with.
The large effective ranges in B2 also reduce the value of movement. Once in range, it can be quite hard to get out (unless you're closing).
Next is, notably with energy weapons, ammo is unlimited. There's no reason to not fire. need a 12 of 2D6? Why not, fire away.
So, you get two ships racing toward each other, blasting away, waiting to get lucky.
The conventional pirate v trader scenario is marginally different. That's a race to the 100D mark. Pirate blasting away, Trader accelerating, and popping sand, running evasive.
In Book 2, the constrained computers provide some options of choice, for example a Free Trader doesn't really have the room for all the software it might like (Evade, Launch, etc.). But, considering the potential bonuses they can offer, larger can be quite important.
Detection can act as artificial terrain. I never played it, but was always curious about the impact of using the White Out in Brilliant Lances from missile explosions as a technique to "hide" in space. Again, defensively, I can see it being useful. Keep shooting missile between you and your aggressor until you can jump, preventing them from getting a lock. But for combatants, engaging each other, not sure how effective it is. And having more than one ship (since you can hand off detection and locks from ship to ship) can mitigate things like that.
But it might be an option.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
If nature abhors a vacuum, why is there so much of it?
Well, to be fair (to LBB2) ... the original "wargaming with vectors" notion of LBB2 was that "agility" as implemented by LBB5.80 "did not exist" in LBB2 (77 or 81), partially because "agility" as a derived combat performance parameter required an EP budget (which LBB2 didn't bother with, so ... oops
).Furthermore, the detection, tracking and weapons envelope ranges are SO FAR BEYOND "visual range" that the very notion of using Mk I Eyeballs out of bridge/cockpit windows to "see" targets is simply laughable. Hard to have an agility dependent "dogfight" when separated by up to 250,000 km (which counts as "short range" under LBB2.81, p30). Note that the distance from Terra to Luna is an average of 382,500 km ... so ... 250,000 km for "short range" on weapons is ... much larger than you're ever going to see happening on duodeo screens for popular entertainment. There is no "look out the window to see enemy" stuff possible at those kinds of ranges, it's all pure sensors and computers and servo controls when things are THAT FAR AWAY from your own position. Very much a "push button warfare" kind of deal, where all you can do is look at screens and sensor UI data dumps.
Agreed.
Well, so long as there is power available ...
Except that you quickly run into the problem of overmatch.
All you need is a 1G margin of advantage and there is "no escape" possible via breaking off by acceleration under LBB2.
LBB5.80 "enhances" this comparison by moving the goal posts to Agility rather than just merely maneuver drive G rating of acceleration.
In "lightning strike" contexts, the relative velocity between 2 sides can potentially be so high that there is only a slim window of time during which both sides can only deliver a single volley/salvo of fire before passing each other and moving beyond weapons range by the second round of combat ... meaning you only get 1 shot, and that's your battle.
Which, of course, suggests a few "blockade runner" scenarios ...
Bare minimum, it's one way to leverage a high powered maneuver drive for some "interesting shenanigans" that would not otherwise be available with a more stodgy 1G maneuver drive performance.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
People tend to see, what they expect to see.
Fly casual.
Fly casual.
On the whiteout scenario, they had that tactic with the nukes in 2300. Thought it was neato then and obviously so did the Expanse guys.
Great stuff, but at the ranges CT weapons reach and Gs it just takes accel for a couple minutes to any side of the EMP flash to get LOS clear.
Great stuff, but at the ranges CT weapons reach and Gs it just takes accel for a couple minutes to any side of the EMP flash to get LOS clear.
Marcatlas
SOC-12
right, which is why I posted the links to this topic that were hashed out physics wise last century so people could cut to the chaseI have to say I have learned some things from this thread. Have some interesting ideas. And overall I am glad I read it. But now it feels like the subject is spent out. It's like we are now just doing the old 'uh huh - nuh uh' dance.
Once you marry LBB2 maneuver to LBB5 weapons and make a few changes, you can give reason for more maneuver beyond banzai charge at each other.
The big one is diminishing combat power at greater range and armor.
I have the weapon ratings mean combat power at 90000-99999 km.
Closer in is suicide range, every 10000 km closer increases the weapon/battery strength by 1 and to hit that goes with it. Past 9 for turrets and bays the weapon is rated 1 up for damage and +1 to hit.
For every 100000 km out, a -1 is applied to the weapon/battery value. Special handling for the spinal weapons due to their tech level differentiation. Again for any beam/particle weapon the value determines to hit and damage (black globe rules, 1 EP equals 10 tons, obviously different damage paradigm then LBB5).
The armor part is simple but drastic- the weapon value must exceed the target armor value else no damage.
This means that instead of the dash to close and do damage, there can be optimal ranges where one ship can penetrate the opponent while not being able to be damaged in return. An underpowered ship may need to close to do damage, perhaps even suicide ranges.
On a fleet level which ships can damage the opposing ships at what range will likely affect the maneuver of the whole fleet.
The big one is diminishing combat power at greater range and armor.
I have the weapon ratings mean combat power at 90000-99999 km.
Closer in is suicide range, every 10000 km closer increases the weapon/battery strength by 1 and to hit that goes with it. Past 9 for turrets and bays the weapon is rated 1 up for damage and +1 to hit.
For every 100000 km out, a -1 is applied to the weapon/battery value. Special handling for the spinal weapons due to their tech level differentiation. Again for any beam/particle weapon the value determines to hit and damage (black globe rules, 1 EP equals 10 tons, obviously different damage paradigm then LBB5).
The armor part is simple but drastic- the weapon value must exceed the target armor value else no damage.
This means that instead of the dash to close and do damage, there can be optimal ranges where one ship can penetrate the opponent while not being able to be damaged in return. An underpowered ship may need to close to do damage, perhaps even suicide ranges.
On a fleet level which ships can damage the opposing ships at what range will likely affect the maneuver of the whole fleet.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
There's a reason for that ...
Anytime your entertainment medium becomes "a screen" for the audience to watch, if you're going to have dueling adversaries as a director you're going to want to put the parties involved inside the frame of the screen ... so the audience can see everyone involved.
Star Trek (original series in the 60s), notably, broke that paradigm by use of viewing screens. It was actually RARE to see more than one craft at a time within a single clip of video on screen. One of the rare exceptions was actually the Tholian Web, for example, where it was necessary to show the "cage" that was being constructed around the Enterprise, which then meant showing the Tholian ships in the same frame as the Enterprise.
Compare and contrast this "sense of scale" as presented by Star Trek with what happened later in Star Wars (visual range airplanes and capital ships in space), Battlestar Galactica (also visual range airplanes and carriers in space), Buck Rogers in the 25th Century (also visual range airplanes in space) and a whole host of other sci-fi series. It wasn't until reaching Babylon 5 that we finally got to "visual range NOT airplanes in space" type fighters, but most combat took place within what amounts to visual range for Mk I human eyeballs.
There were notable LONG RANGE engagements though, such as the Shadows crushing the Narn, in which most of the damage was actually inflicted by capital ship spinal mount weaponry (or the equivalent) ... particularly the Shadow ship's cutting beam. Consequently, you don't really see the two opposing forces "mixing it up" dogfight style at all during the SHORT battle.
One of the few anime to properly deal with this Beyond Visual Range aspect of space weaponry range envelopes was actually, of all things ... Starship Operators (english dubbed episodes of which can be found on youtube HERE).
Another anime that deals with "realistic" space combat with an electronic warfare, decoys, spoofing and "stealth in space" angle to it is (surprisingly) Mouretsu Pirates episodes 3, 4 and the very satisfying culmination in 5.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Also, no gravity and miniskirts.
There never was, the escape is 100D and Jump. Just gotta keep the power, computer, and jump drive alive long enough to pull it off.
With the most basic Free Trade and its Model 1 computer, right at the point of jump they're most vulnerable since they have to off load defensive programs for the jump programs.
The second reason is battle line.
Once one is maneuvering rather then lining up ships Imperium style, the question of protecting ships has to be addressed.
Physical blocking is silly given again distances and ease of generating LOS.
My mechanic is assuming an EW shell every ship can put up making it more difficult for opponents to hit ships behind them. Computer model of all blocking ships added together as one negative DM to hit.
The line can be within less then 10000km, or 10000 km out ( a hex if using Mayday type maneuver), and is covering 60 degrees of the protected ships. The line ships and protected ships must be going at the same velocity and course.
As more ships get damaged, the ability of the fleet to accelerate in any direction diminishes. Hard choices regarding scuttling must be made.
This tends to clump fleets into a few easily moved and handled objects.
Then the other maneuver part relative to the line is that 60 degree coverage. A maneuver tactic to get at the juicy protected ships is to have a separate fleet move out of that arc and attack from an uncovered direction.
The counter is to spread another line on an arc covering the separate attack fleet, thinning out the line. Then maybe even more fleets surrounding, but each separate fleet would be thinning themselves out for their own lines.
Just not the sort of thing you work out unless you are thinking through actual maneuver.
Once one is maneuvering rather then lining up ships Imperium style, the question of protecting ships has to be addressed.
Physical blocking is silly given again distances and ease of generating LOS.
My mechanic is assuming an EW shell every ship can put up making it more difficult for opponents to hit ships behind them. Computer model of all blocking ships added together as one negative DM to hit.
The line can be within less then 10000km, or 10000 km out ( a hex if using Mayday type maneuver), and is covering 60 degrees of the protected ships. The line ships and protected ships must be going at the same velocity and course.
As more ships get damaged, the ability of the fleet to accelerate in any direction diminishes. Hard choices regarding scuttling must be made.
This tends to clump fleets into a few easily moved and handled objects.
Then the other maneuver part relative to the line is that 60 degree coverage. A maneuver tactic to get at the juicy protected ships is to have a separate fleet move out of that arc and attack from an uncovered direction.
The counter is to spread another line on an arc covering the separate attack fleet, thinning out the line. Then maybe even more fleets surrounding, but each separate fleet would be thinning themselves out for their own lines.
Just not the sort of thing you work out unless you are thinking through actual maneuver.
The third element I added in to make maneuver a thing is kinetic damage increases for missiles.
This is lifted from the missile supplement and applied to LBB5 missiles (which are maneuvered LBB2 style). Battery strength goes up 1 for every collective 5Gs at hit time, but not to hit or point defense fire and can exceed 9.
That works out to 20 tons of damage per battery value. So a fighter firing a battery 2 shot and the missiles run 6 turns like the typical homing missile can deliver a battery 8 shot or 160 tons, can knock out a missile bay plus.
But if a ship was charging at the fighter and going 10 Vee at impact, that is rendered as a value 10 battery and is 200 tons of damage.
Worse that battery value increases armor penetration, so that fighter strike can punch through armor value 9. A light cruiser that might normally be armor invulnerable could eat weapons loss or major system damage, to a mere fighter.
So there is a price for the beam charge if the opponent has significant missile assets.
Nice thing about the charge is reducing the run time of the missile, making it’s impact vee and therefore battery value less, but the collective closing speed might make up for it until much closer especially if both fleets continue accel at the same time.
An exception is nukes, they ignore kinetic increases and armor. Works out to 1000 tons per battery value and at 1000 tons plus damage they hit like a PA spinal (double chance critical hit).
This is lifted from the missile supplement and applied to LBB5 missiles (which are maneuvered LBB2 style). Battery strength goes up 1 for every collective 5Gs at hit time, but not to hit or point defense fire and can exceed 9.
That works out to 20 tons of damage per battery value. So a fighter firing a battery 2 shot and the missiles run 6 turns like the typical homing missile can deliver a battery 8 shot or 160 tons, can knock out a missile bay plus.
But if a ship was charging at the fighter and going 10 Vee at impact, that is rendered as a value 10 battery and is 200 tons of damage.
Worse that battery value increases armor penetration, so that fighter strike can punch through armor value 9. A light cruiser that might normally be armor invulnerable could eat weapons loss or major system damage, to a mere fighter.
So there is a price for the beam charge if the opponent has significant missile assets.
Nice thing about the charge is reducing the run time of the missile, making it’s impact vee and therefore battery value less, but the collective closing speed might make up for it until much closer especially if both fleets continue accel at the same time.
An exception is nukes, they ignore kinetic increases and armor. Works out to 1000 tons per battery value and at 1000 tons plus damage they hit like a PA spinal (double chance critical hit).
The fourth part is spinal weapons having a 900000 km plus range.
Turret and bay weapons are out of it at that range, but the big guns plus missiles can slug it out.
So I have four ranges- less then 100000 km suicide range (like Imperium), 100000-249000 km short range, 250000- 899999 km long range, 900000 km-1500000km extreme range (TL x 100000 km for tracking once detected).
For a heavy warship fleet short on escorts, it would behoove them to operate a scout fleet to provide targeting and the big boys stand off and pound the enemy. And not allow a missile run or beam charge, perhaps withdraw/jump if it becomes a problem.
Turret and bay weapons are out of it at that range, but the big guns plus missiles can slug it out.
So I have four ranges- less then 100000 km suicide range (like Imperium), 100000-249000 km short range, 250000- 899999 km long range, 900000 km-1500000km extreme range (TL x 100000 km for tracking once detected).
For a heavy warship fleet short on escorts, it would behoove them to operate a scout fleet to provide targeting and the big boys stand off and pound the enemy. And not allow a missile run or beam charge, perhaps withdraw/jump if it becomes a problem.
Don’t neglect Legend of the Galactic Heroes, a mix of dogfight and long range 3D ship walls/formations and deception often coupled with stellar objects.There's a reason for that ...
Anytime your entertainment medium becomes "a screen" for the audience to watch, if you're going to have dueling adversaries as a director you're going to want to put the parties involved inside the frame of the screen ... so the audience can see everyone involved.
Star Trek (original series in the 60s), notably, broke that paradigm by use of viewing screens. It was actually RARE to see more than one craft at a time within a single clip of video on screen. One of the rare exceptions was actually the Tholian Web, for example, where it was necessary to show the "cage" that was being constructed around the Enterprise, which then meant showing the Tholian ships in the same frame as the Enterprise.
Compare and contrast this "sense of scale" as presented by Star Trek with what happened later in Star Wars (visual range airplanes and capital ships in space), Battlestar Galactica (also visual range airplanes and carriers in space), Buck Rogers in the 25th Century (also visual range airplanes in space) and a whole host of other sci-fi series. It wasn't until reaching Babylon 5 that we finally got to "visual range NOT airplanes in space" type fighters, but most combat took place within what amounts to visual range for Mk I human eyeballs.
There were notable LONG RANGE engagements though, such as the Shadows crushing the Narn, in which most of the damage was actually inflicted by capital ship spinal mount weaponry (or the equivalent) ... particularly the Shadow ship's cutting beam. Consequently, you don't really see the two opposing forces "mixing it up" dogfight style at all during the SHORT battle.
One of the few anime to properly deal with this Beyond Visual Range aspect of space weaponry range envelopes was actually, of all things ... Starship Operators (english dubbed episodes of which can be found on youtube HERE).
Another anime that deals with "realistic" space combat with an electronic warfare, decoys, spoofing and "stealth in space" angle to it is (surprisingly) Mouretsu Pirates episodes 3, 4 and the very satisfying culmination in 5.
The asteroids of course are ridiculously close especially with the apparent force of the stellar winds, but an example of using terrain and conditions to change the correlation of forces.
Hmm got me thinking- how about positioning a meson armed battle fleet behind a planet, using planetary sensors and a scout fleet to provide targeting, and engaging an invasion fleet without being engaged themselves?
Of course won’t last, the invasion fleet merely has to get their scout fleet eyes on the backside of the planet and reverse the situation, but could be a way for a defense to shave away and even the odds.
Of course won’t last, the invasion fleet merely has to get their scout fleet eyes on the backside of the planet and reverse the situation, but could be a way for a defense to shave away and even the odds.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
Basically "forward observers" done for the navy instead of the army?
Definitely a viable option ... however ... if you're going to be "handing off" targeting data like that through a communications pipeline, if I were the Referee I would argue that the lowest computer model in the chain determines the relative computer size for the shot taken.
So if you've got a Type-S Scout/Courier "forward observing" for some sort of cruiser or battleship, then the spinal mount gets fired using a model/1bis for the "relative computer size" contest ... not a model/9fib.
Thus the "forward observer" tactic is POSSIBLE, but depending on the assets involved can wind up being decidedly sub-optimal.
So if you modify the fleet assets a bit, you can use a Destroyer Escort with a model/9fib computer as your "forward observer" handing off targeting data to the cruiser or battleship (which also has a model/9fib computer) and thus the "relative computer size" would use a 9fib for the contest with the target.
When the computer model of observer and shooter are the same is when you can achieve optimal results.
