Starports

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by atpollard:
To everyone who has expressed an interest in this:

I am a visual learner. While lists are all very well and good, a rough sketch is usually better than a detailed list. Would it be practical to approach this project with the goal of generating some crude sketches of typical starports? Just simple boxes with labels and brief descriptions.

As I see it, some people could work on compiling the data already gathered.

Other people could assemble simple functions into a rough starport plan. (type B highport: manufacturing here, commercial here, freight here, passengers here, shipyard here, etc.)

Still other people could create a simple plan detailing one of the starport functions (a typical bar, a typical freight terminal, etc).

Everyone would be welcome to work on whatever part they prefer. Each layer feeds the others.

Just offering ideas. Comments welcome (but please, don’t throw things).

Throws Bucket of bathwater at you

Good ideas on "visual affects" AT. The concpets of the "basic parts" a starport has can be easily translated into such boxes, etc.

What those portions look like, well CAD proggies aren't my forte to say the least, and as ravs expressed elsewhere, the lego-modular starport might be useful (i see them as feeder ports, or early colonial moons insystem set ups myself), they deny the artistic expression of Humanity (as varied as the stars & Terran Airports we have now) of the here and now, much less the "future".

MB, SGB : Copy wright infringement laws prevent us on one hand, SJG is not QLI.

The BITS conversion tables work well for tasks, but the initial idea was to take that which all the versions of Traveller had in common (The UWP world UPP code) & make a simple, user-friendly GM-Ref and Player useful guide to have for doing things like:

+How many berths does this place have?
+What kind of (if any) Banking financial houses are here? How many?
+What if they don't honor TAS?
+Where's the Red light/ Cantina concourse?
+Non TAS Hotel accomodations (yes/no)?
+Medical facilities (Civilian or Military) present?
+Imperial or Non-Imperial Starport (Yes folks, I had a player get dissed there was no TAS Hotel-Resturaunt-Casino complex once in a campaign, but hey, Arden did give him a line of credit on his starship--not his title. Imagine his surprise to discover things worked differently outside the Imperium!)
+(on that note) Where's Legal representation when you really need it? Is it "Justice", or "Just us," pal?

Calc-ing some of these things off the system's given UPP (the majority of which in the OTU have no planetary write up or thumbnail sketch so you can see where this idea has merit for all those other places a GM might wish to send his players packing off to via misjump, or a patron, and so on.)

Some of the pitfalls we encountered as we began this project were these: (Shane if you read this, these are what I saw we had, and certes not the entire list of headaches and pot holes .)

+ Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians.
+ The Inability to say "no" to more voluntary contributors than were necessary, creating conflicting/ competing ideas ("please all, please none".)
+ The inability of folks who contributed ideas to take constructive criticism.
+The inability
+ Without clear effective Leadership & the free time to devote that attention such a project required, a mouse designed by committee becomes an elephant, which this spiralled into, and not the original intent of the user-friendly, Keep it Simple Silly (KISS) principle.
+ Real Life will end part timer led projects like this in a heartbeat, which I can attest to an "Iraqi" vacation Oct o9 2003-Apr 01 2005 to myself.

SO.. if you intend to press forward with this idea, I have no patent to it, no copywright, & no lawyers to sue you with, much less the time to pursue you with them, had I such resources.

robject your 1998 visual ideas were the inspiration for setting forth in the first place.

ravs Your illos do the curretn day and age medium justice .

As to earlier query of "unlocking the thread", I'm a moderator, not the man with the thread locking-unlocking key, so anything done here on out is from scratch once again.

 

[ravells]

Hi Liam,

I am better suited to be an Indian on this project. I suggest that we propose a chief. Qualifications of chief should be someone who knows the Traveller rule system inside out and who can give this project the time it deserves and most importantly project manage the help offered.

As you were involved at the start and have more materials than us, I would suggest you be the project director (if you have the time and energy to devote to it)but if others meet the qualifications then I'm happy to follow their lead.

What I am still not entirely clear about (and what we appear to be currently discussing) is exactly what categories of content are going to appear in the final product and how that content is to be presented. My view, FWIW, is to set the parameters first and then detail within them.

So

1. What information about starports do we aim to present?

2. How do we intend to present that information?

3. How do we give this project sensible milestones so it doesn't get bogged down in a quagmire of emails that go in all directions and end up going nowhere?

I still think a mission statement of some description is a good place to start so we begin singing off the same hymn sheet.

Most of all, a project director(s) who can keep the project on track is a must. This page on how to manage a project seems like a good place to start.

Ravs

 

[Liam Devlin]

Gretings, ravs:

Originally posted by ravs:
Hi Liam,

I am better suited to be an Indian on this project. I suggest that we propose a chief. Qualifications of chief should be someone who knows the Traveller rule system inside out and who can give this project the time it deserves and most importantly project manage the help offered.

Agreed, 1x "Chief" & your volunteering to be an "Indian".

As you were involved at the start and have more materials than us, I would suggest you be the project director (if you have the time and energy to devote to it)but if others meet the qualifications then I'm happy to follow their lead.

Thank you for the vote of confidence. I am currently involved in writing stuff for Traveller (for pay) elsewhere presently (a sourcebook, an adventure series with colloborative help), seeking pubbing of one already done (parts 2 & 3 of a trilogy), and a mini-supplement on starships of a certain time period and stellar state. The good news on all of those is, I have help with them, and the crunchy bits "where I suck", to put it flatly, like map making, and illustrations.

What I am still not entirely clear about (and what we appear to be currently discussing) is exactly what categories of content are going to appear in the final product and how that content is to be presented. My view, FWIW, is to set the parameters first and then detail within them.

Logical.

So

1. What information about starports do we aim to present?

NOTE: Not listed in order as it appeared in draft
Describe their
1)basic components (like your illustration shows).
2)List the typical facilities (by Port class)found there (Imperial or Non Imperial).
3)Describe Repair & Building capabilities (Types A-D) and what size vessels/ hulls serviced or built here (based on UWP data).
4)Be able to Determine at a glance whether or not they are orbital, or dirtside (by UWP data).
5)Be able to Determine at a glance size of the Port (by UWP Population data).
6)Be able to Determine the approximate number of Ports within a system (based on UWP data).
7). Be able to Show the difference between a Single world Govt & Balkanized worlds or Asteroid systems in reference to #6 above.
8) Be able to Give examples in easy step by step diceless (Systemless) process.

2. How do we intend to present that information?

Legibly first and foremost; in the simplest terms and in complete sentences.

3. How do we give this project sensible milestones so it doesn't get bogged down in a quagmire of emails that go in all directions and end up going nowhere?

Begin with not having the project done out in the public forum like this, and among those interested who can devote the time it deserves to it in all honesty. Sorry, a firm "maybe" doesn't cut it. Why the secrecy? Keeps the traffic down to minimum, and idea input amongst the team. Conduct and write offline from here, via Personal and PM mail.

Milestones?
1) Assemble the team
2) Divvy the labor
3) Do the job.
4) Edit and cross check all submitted work
5) Seek publication & More editing possible)
6) Illustrator, as needed
7) Graphics, as needed.
8) Get paid or get credit for it.

I still think a mission statement of some description is a good place to start so we begin singing off the same hymn sheet.

No argument.

Most of all, a project director(s) who can keep the project on track is a must. This page on how to manage a project seems like a good place to start.

Ravs [/QB]

The format I'm most familiar with is this 5-step process:

I. Situation:
There exists a need for a simple, easy-to-understand Traveller supplemental guide for both GMs and Players based on the common data found in a planetary systems' UWP data to better describe what a Starport is, can do and provide for or has available to both parties.

II.
Mission: To gather a team of 2-4 assistants to write, organize, edit and collate said data into the format (described in Section I above). To create a visual and easy to follow supplemental systemless (To be used by any Traveller player or ref, no matter personal choice of game mechanic/ time era) guide book on Starports in a manner comprehensive, but not expensive or padded with ambiguities.

III. Execution:
a) Deadline- To Be Determined (TBD)
b) Selection of team (Voluntary)
c) Method of organization (See section III below)
The User Friendly Starport Guide Project will commence after selection of the team. The team will need 1-2 writers, 1 graphics Illustrator, and 1 project manager.
Phase one consists of selection of team, and discussions on division of labor;
Phase two presents current status of last known drafted ideas, discussion by PM & e-mail of what to discard and what to keep.
Phase Three- Complete the draft for submission status.
Phase IV-re edit any corrections.

IV. Command & Signal:

a)Chain of Command will be the project Manager, writers and graphics illustrator. Everyone edits, and double checks. Above project manager once mission-project is complete will be publishing company.

b) Signal: Private Mail on CoTI, and personal e-mail.

Service and Support:

a) Canon only Traveller data from CT- MT-TNE-GT- T20 concerning Starports will be considered and listed by source within supplement's bibliography.

b) The team members themselves will support and serve as editors to one another in the brainstorming idea sharing process once selected and project begun.


Any questions?

 

[ravells]

So is that a yes, you'll be the project director?

If so, then from what you've written, I think there's a decent chance that something will actually get completed, particularly as you have prior experience.

What I can do

Writing.
Editing.
Maps.
Flowcharts.
Simple 3d modelling.
Simple illustrations.

Time I can devote:

About 10 hours a week.

I have access to Aviation materials and can get hold of research reference material on airports.

Ravs

 

[Mickazoid]

I volunteer as well - I made a 'Starports' book already for CT based on Marc's stuff and some of the 'net rules... and would be glad to help.

I'd post a link, but it's not right for me to post copyrighted content in a new format without permission.

 

[stofsk]

If it's one thing Traveller needs more of, it's not more rules. It's actually more fluff material and illustrations. And by that, I mean fiction and pictures that depict how life is like (I don't think we need more pictures of starships and hardware).

Any ambitious project has to have the above, at least.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Me Indian.

I can devote similar times as Ravs (praise the 5 day week). I can do

Writing (Have spellchecker, will use it)
Flowcharts
Concepts

I worked in Logistics (both in practical one and doing software), can get stuff on IRL harbor systems and procedures

Between my knowledge of the various Traveller rules systems (played/mastered most) I should be able to help generalise the stuff

 

[Mickazoid]

I'm about to start doing some deckplans for Andrew's gigundo-port, if any of that work can be leveraged for this effort please let me know!

I think Starport book should have:

- cargo and commerce examples/procedures/rules mods based on starport type
- starports and starship combat
- vignettes of life on a starport (those lovely 'italic' narrative sections telling stories from varying perspectives, which I just love for flavor and idea generation)
- history of starports
- relationships between worlds, cities and their starports
- Law Level mods for starports
- procedures for docking, embarking, etc. (to provide skill rolls for interacting with a starport)... for example landing and takeoff are the most complex/dangerous events in modern aviation
- 76 patrons and 1001 character-style listings of events and encounters
- lovely lovely art and sample deckplans
- etc.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by mickazoid:
I'm about to start doing some deckplans for Andrew's gigundo-port, if any of that work can be leveraged for this effort please let me know!

I think Starport book should have:

- cargo and commerce examples/procedures/rules mods based on starport type

This could be quite system dependent with different trade systems in the various Traveller variants

- random encounters section
- vignettes of life on a starport (those lovely 'italic' narrative sections telling stories from varying perspectives

Sounds good. Bringing life to the starport is something that is really needed. It's one thing to describe the difference between Class X and Class A in rules terms and another to make that come alive

- history of starports

Again, I could see this as a story-based material or some descriptions. Some ports will get completely rebuild every century or so while others will grow and present a mix between archaic and modern technologies (Think Hamburg with the Speicherstadt and the Container Port )

- relationships between worlds, cities and their starports
- Law Level mods for starports
- procedures for docking, embarking, etc. (to provide skill rolls for interacting with a starport)... for example landing and takeoff are the most complex/dangerous events in modern aviation

Here we are on thin terrain since this is covered in detail in Starports.

- 76 patrons and 1001 character-style listings of events and encounters
- lovely lovely art and sample deckplans
- etc.

I need a CAD system to draw a cube. But I am quite willing/capabel of doing a number of characters and backgrounds for this. Guess it's time to talk with an old neighbour who worked customs at a local Airport.

What I would add is

- External (non Imperial ports)
- Installations outside the XT Line and basic highport
+ Refueling stations
+ Layover bases
+ Defence and security
- Sample maintenance installations/capabilities

 

[ravells]

Just in terms of a sense of general 'story feel' and 'theme', I see Traveller starports as being much more like sea ports in the 1920s/30s than airports of today.

By this I never imagine lines of bored passengers waiting for their luggage at Starports. It's much more like an 'Indiana Jones' film where ships are a for charter without too much paperwork and there is a lot more room for individual commerce. (Whether or not the 1920s/30s were really like that I don't know.

Although, come to think of it, there's no reason why one couldn't have both themes depending on the starport involved.

(Sorry just rambling).

Ravs

 

[Mickazoid]

ravs and Michael - great ideas all. I want to help!!!

 

[ravells]

So that is:

Ravs, MB, Mickazoid (and I hope atpollard who started the resurrection of the project).

Looks like all we need is Liam to be the man from Del Monte, PM us his email address and then we can get busy!

Ravs

 

[atpollard]

Count me in.

 

[MR TEK]

Roboject, are you involved with The Sharakkannik Collection, http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/StarportModuleCatalog.html

This looks like a very strong start for what everyone is talking about.

Modular systems, Prepackaged combinations. And I would have to reread it, but if I recall 100% system independent.

Lots of visual elements, (there landing pad looks exactly like what robo posted.)

Nothing to predetermine what a specific port might look like beyond outlines of a typical package.

I have some broad ideas, and would like a hand in this project as well.

I do not want to commit to great volumes of new work, but I have been arranging tools to do large scale deck plans in CC2 with Cosmographer. (Currently completing a 34000 luxury liner for the deck plan challenge.)

I have always envisioned the commercial port, not even a high port, but at the 100D limit.


The big interstellar traffic would need tiny 1 g maneuver and not even a half load of fuel. They could jump virtually dock to dock.

Then the smaller ships, the tramps and Indies, and insystem stuff would go partway down the gravity well to the high port, or all the way to the low port.

Passengers on the big mega lines would move through a concourse that would not be out of place in a modern air port, and the small guys would dock against the concourse, ala CJ Cherye. (after all these years I STILL can’t spell her name.) or Serenity / firefly.

That way the standard rate cargo, and standard rate passengers are hearded, and boxed and shipped at the cheapest price possible so the big boys make bank on volume and severely reduced overhead, and everybody else negotiates for what ever they can get dockside .

The big stuff could even be booked months or even years in advance, and always jump holds crammed, and there would still be the stuff that wasn’t booked that far ahead, could not get a contract because they were too small/ too infrequent, or simply did not want the spotlight the big boys shine on everything they touch.


By the way, a critical decision has to be made about starports before even the most basic work is started.

A big ship universe with lots of traffic will have completely different ports from a small ship’ verse with mostly speculative traffic.

You have to define the economic basis very early, and the large ship or small ship model flows pretty closely behind.

It is vaguely possible to have a high traffic volume universe with only small ships. Not a stable system, and requires some handwave to explain why the mega corps exist, but can’t maximize profit with the gargantuan ships.

A low volume economic model on the other hand with trade only in luxuries and peripheral goods would be almost impossible to produce ships of any size.

Personally, I believe that if starship engines are a commodity, as strongly implied in book 2 and highguard, then the universe must have THOUSANDS of ships, all the way up to million tonners popping in and out of port daily. Just my opinion, but anything smaller and nobody is going to sell prepackaged engines and hulls. They are simply top expensive unless the need for them is MASSIVE.


Just some of my semi-random thoughts.

 

[atpollard]

I would not wish it to slip by unnoticed, but this topic has undergone a slight shift and intensification of focus. While I started the ball rolling with some general suggestions about sketching some crude ports, the current focus has narrowed to:

SITUATION: There exists a need for a simple, easy-to-understand Traveller supplemental guide for both GMs and Players based on the common data found in a planetary systems' UWP data to better describe what a Starport is, can do and provide for or has available to both parties.

MISSION: To gather a team of 2-4 assistants to write, organize, edit and collate said data into the format (described in Section I above). To create a visual and easy to follow supplemental systemless (To be used by any Traveller player or ref, no matter personal choice of game mechanic/ time era) guide book on Starports in a manner comprehensive, but not expensive or padded with ambiguities.

This does not appear to be headed for a T20 version of “GURPS: Starports”. It appears to be heading in the direction of a LBB like system to convert basic data like Population and TL into a description of what facilities and services are available at that particular starport. I just wanted everyone posting here to SEE what it is that LIAM DEVLIN is actually proposing.

[Please, correct me if I am wrong and have misunderstood what this is all about.]

 

[atpollard]

If we assume that starports generally reflect the TL of their world, then the character of a starport will be greatly altered by which one of three Tech Level groups it falls into. At the low end, muscle power must predominate, so strong, sweaty longshoremen will use levers and pulleys to load cargo onto wagons and draft animals to haul it away. At the middle group of TL’s, steam power, internal combustion and wheeled vehicles are available to perform the lifting and hauling – fork lifts, cranes, trains and trucks scurry about the place. At the high end (above TL 9) grav vehicles predominate, creating the classic Traveller starport image.

Just some thoughts late at night.

 

[Mickazoid]

I seond the vote for strong, sweaty longshoremen, especially at night.

Wait, I got distracted. Anyway, excellent flavor, there. And thanks for the focus - I totally agree (although I find myself biased toward anything with 'LBB' and 'Starports' in it).

 

[MR TEK]

Well, I think that the mission sums up what I alays thought was needed.

I never articulated it quite so well, but that sounds extreamly useful to me.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by mickazoid:
ravs and Michael - great ideas all. I want to help!!!

Ms Mickazoid:

Accepted, & welcome aboard.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Count me in.

Mr. atpollard,

Accepted & Welcome aboard.