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Starports

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Okay so no "Starports Classifications, Section Imperial Ports, Subsection E, Sub-Subsection E1" in Folder 7a of 11.
Correct.

Yokes aside, I guess we need to define, what does "facilities" mean. Do they include only building/repair yards and a terminal or do they also include ship chandlers and outfitters.
Well, as i see accumulated in my notes, Ship building & repair facilities are both absent in the E-class, (unlike the D-class, which can handle minor repairs). The D, E, & X-class all have NO TAS Hotel facility at them in the Imperium.

So far the port sizes are:

I.e "Bevergern Harbor"(1) is a some 20 anchoring places small shop, two oilers and a sign "Bevergern, 2km". Is that Class E or Class C? I'd say C because of the oilers

Some 10km further down the DE Channel is "Rhode Harbor". Anchorage, a small shop and a telefone to call the oilers at Bevergern. Class E IMHO.

Some 10km up the MC channel is "Püsselbüren Harbor". A few anchorage places in an old sidearm. Class X IMHO


100km up the DE Channel is Duisburg Harbor. Major fright handling port with a sprawling harbortown, storehouses and dry docks/construction yards. Class B since it can only build channel/river boats.
In wet vessel terms, you're dead nail on the head MB for classifying them into starports by what they can do for the vessels that visit them.

On the "magical" in fuel processors:

One can assume that an off-spin of fusion theory is used to "crack"(2) other gases down to Hydrogen and the new steps in metallurgy allow together with better isolation allow for smaller lyquifiers. I try to dig out the reference to using fusion "breeders"
The ability to have Compressed air comes in at TL5 too lets not forget, and makes those trace atmosphere worlds livable if you have rebreathers and can compress your gas to provide livable amounts. That aside, the technology needed to liquify Hydrogen & store it into even an 'unrefined' state for fuelling starships needs to be pegged down.

On the space station at TL8:

No problem. I'd say this is do-abel even at TL7 (Skylab, Saljut, Almaz(3))
I concur, albeit one would have to tow said TL7 mini-station it seems to me, out to the work/job site for the cutter crew to do their work! At current speeds, thats an 18 month trip to Mars, plus time from Mars to the near Belt.

In the above exampel I was refering to a more remote station that cracks asteroid ice into Hydrogen. At lower TL, lacking Fusion technology, this is likely done through Electrolysis since in Space energy is cheap.

Depending on the locals and their needs some impressive space drives exist at TL7/TL8 and above (Orion Nuclear Pulse, Nerva Nuclear-Thermal) and allow off-world bases.
I believe T20 puts a ceiling of 1 to 2G's on thrust for M-drives at TL7 and says nothing of what they actually are, so agreed.
 
Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Whats the problem with the fuel processors here ?
Whats considered to be magic ?
Fuel processors can either seperate Hydrogen from the rest of the Athmosphere gases or can break down other gases to hydrogen. The resulting gaseous hydrogen can than be liquified. Both are rather complex processes than happen in a very small unit in Traveller.

So they are likely not using our current day process to do it but an advanced technology. That would also fit in with the base TL of 9 for Fuel Processors, putting them in the same region as fusion technology IIRC.
 
I won't rule out that I have gotten that the wrong way round. I don't develop them physical thingies, I just write the security programs that fail ;)
 
Highlights:

+1898 LHyd process accomplished.

+1903 LHyd hypothesized by Russian School teacher Konstantin Vsiolokovsky as a rocket fuel

+1926-Heisenburg better defines the LHyd process into orthohydrogen & Paraorthohydrogen catlyst processes, wins Nobel for Physics in 1932.

+1950's USA begins mass production plants for LHyd for rocket program.

+1963, NASA Centaur rocket first to use LHyd fuel is launched successfully.

Discovery tech level and Technology level seem to vary here in order to produce in quantity and store it in quantity. Although the article notes that costs are still by 1973 more exorbitant compared to amount produced for space use still.

Hence, my thoughts on the efficiency of TL9 Starship refiners. Now agreed, reversing, it looks like for Rocket-space borne vehicles, 1950's-60's looks like late TL5 early-mid TL6.

Your thoughts?
 
One thought about purified v raw has been hammering around in my brain the whole time and for long before. What justifies the cost multiplier? Given the cheap and small purifiers from HG forward it's a belief suspender snapping presumption that no ship is without them and that there'd be a market for purified fuel at a starport. The way the rules are, post HG, the whole purified v raw issue is nonsense. No one would buy purified fuel at a premium. Even a small 200ton J1 free-trader makes money by losing cargo space to a purifier and buying raw fuel running it through the purifiers.

It seems to me that the refined v raw rule was one that should have been dropped once purifiers were introduced. Heck, there wasn't even a need for purifiers in the first place. Just looking at the effects of introducing them should have resulted in the rule being there is only one fuel and it's raw because all drives are built with native purification aboard. The differences in the drives and fuel requirements between Book 2 and Book 5 mean you can pretty much add a purifier to any Book 2 design when rebuilding it with Book 5 and come to the same size for engineering. So the fuel rule in HG forward should have been you can skim it, dip it, or buy it, and then purify it yourself. Dropping the whole misjump rule chances for raw fuel.

But the raw fuel misjump chance was a nice rule, it made for interesting trade offs. We're a little short of funds so we're gonna chance a misjump this run. We're gonna skip through uninhabited system B on the way from A to C and skim the gas giant there for fuel, I hope we don't misjump.

All that went away (or logically should have) once fuel purifiers were introduced. And so too should have all the purified and raw fuel rules.

Before HG Naval and Scout ships had them as a default by one interpretation of the rules and civilian ones didn't. At that time the rule made sense and added to the game. Once purifiers were available to all at the prices and sizes they are the market for refined fuel shold have evaporated quicker than the liquid hydrogen it was. Nobody would be buying it unless they'd been out in the same sun too long.

Of course skimming should be so dangerous in fact that only the clincally insane or extremely desperate would do it, and it's not economical for traders since it would involve a long slow trip. And dipping should be illegal for environmental and economic reasons once there is a starport in place. Leaving just buying fuel at the starport, and if they want to sell only refined fuel at a premium price well that's one way for somebody to make a lot of money ;)

I hope that's not too confusing, I was skipping around in my thought processes while typing and may have repeated the point.
 
I know I had a post going into this somewhere in the past. I thought it was on CotI but I can't find it. Maybe it was in the now closed original Starports thread. It outlined a possible way to restore the playability of refined v raw without nixing purifiers and keeping a reason for the cost difference. I don't recall it all but I'll try to later.
 
Basically I agree, buying refined makes no sense for the smaller tramps or ships doing business in system.

Reasons for buying refined fuel can be found for the regularly sheduled ships run by the big lines

+ Some ships can't skim, i.e the LASH tender (Lighter aboard ship) due to hull form

+ For a ship that is just going passing through a system the time to skim and refine is wasted. Depending on the jump-model used it might involve lengthy trips in-system.

+ Systems might have problems with refueling like pirats or relicts from the last war

In these cases it might be easier for say Tukera to pre-position an oiler at the arrival point and have the two ships do a mid-flight refueling on the way to the outbound jump point

This would make refined something that is more commonly used by larger craft
 
Gas giant skimming is not a rational choice for a merchant ship, because it takes too long. However, filling your tanks with water and then purifying that is usually a rational decision for a merchant.
 
I always asked myself, why not to store just water regulary.
Maybe I'm wrong, but water should contain 1500 kg hydrogen per Dton, whereas LHyd only around 1000 kg.

Using thrust based tachnology would perhaps be an argument for LHyd, because of the 14 times mass increase if using water.
But with that mass independent thruster stuff ....

Ideas around there ?
 
First of all, mass-independent is only a high guard thing. Secondly, it does not appear that fuel processors work fast enough to fuel a jump drive. It's useful for carrying extra fuel to allow a second jump, but it's not usable as straight jump fuel.
 
TNE makes you pay for that insystem fuel, and juggling where you come in by where you can get to after arriving "out of the hole" becomes a piloting/ astrogation/ navigation skill much desired, just as planning on not going below "bingo" fuel point is.
 
So...to wit, by historical model:

+Unrefined LHyd fuel = TL4.

+Refined LHyd fuel = TL5

But the machinery that does so is huge vis-a-vis starship borne ones. Going in reverse of TL9 machinery (base of 15dtons that diminishes -3dt per shift to TL-15's 3dton version of the same machinery), a TL4 LHyd fuel purifying machine must be 30dtons at the very least, (not to mention slow and inefficient), and from the lack of TL infrastructure, unable to utilize Heisenburg's catalyst process to get refined, stable LHyd.

Sound perfect for D-class minimum tech level to me ;)

Puts TL5 online for refined fuel and a base TL for C-class ports. Thanks ya'll
 
Another tech level wrinkle we often encounter that we have attempted to bridge here is explaining "why a starport exists on a listed mainworld with a tech level of prestellar tech."

With the 3rd Imperium as our model in Traveller, we noted that the Imperial Starport system has conformed to one of two unwritten/ or presumed rules.

Rule 1: Starports have a minimum tech level themselves, "independent of planetary tech level enjoyed by the majority of its citizens".

example 1a: B565369-3 Lo Ni 903 can build spacecraft, perform major repairs, and offers refined fuel for passing vessels stopping through here, cargo handling, & TAS facilities for passengers.

+Building Manned Spacecraft, even if rocket launched begins at TL6+ (At least +3 tech levels above the 9,000 sentients here)

+Obviously from the previous posts, refined LHyd must be performed at TL5+ (At least +2 tech levels above the 9,000 sentients here)

+Basic mechanical tools come about in TL4, & heavy machinery for industrial use at TL5 in order to perform "major repairs". (At least +1 to +2 tech levels above the 9,000 sentients here).

example 1b: D667544-1 Ag Ni 500 this port offers minor repairs to starships, unrefined fuel, cargo handling, and some passenger services (not TAS quality though).

+ Obviously, basic mechanical tools are TL4 as mentioned before (+3 TL's above world stated average).

+ Unrefined fuel here from a 70% hydrosphere world is rather self-explanatory with the lack of GG's and Belts = planetside wilderness salt or fresh water refueling.

or

Rule 2: Imperial Starports are generally capable of serving starships of 3 tech levels above world average TL. We presume this from the high amount of trade in the 3rd Imperium, and from Imperial technologically homogenous standardization practices.

example 2a: B846857-9 S 823 can service & repair ships up to TL-12, three levels above TL9.

example 2b: A78A885-C S 802 can service & repair Ships up to TL-15, three levels above planetary level.

Reversing this rule, we may extrapolate the base tech level of the starport itself for lower tech worlds:

example 1a: B565369-3 Lo Ni 903 there fore has at a minimum, +3 TL difference from the rest of the planet (TL6).

example 1b: D667544-1 Ag Ni 500's Imperial Starport with this +3 TL differential therefore has a base technology level of TL4.

A quick overview of Imperial Starport Minimum TL's based on our notes and research thus far:

A-class (refined fuel sales, TAS facilities, cargo handing, Major & Minor repairs, manned spacecraft manufacture, Starship manufacture of Jump-1 or better*) = Minimum TL9*.

B-class (refined fuel sales, TAS facilities, cargo handing, Major / Minor repairs, & manned spacecraft manufacture*) Minimum TL6*.

C-class (refined fuel sales*, TAS facilities, cargo handing, Major & Minor repairs)= Minimum TL5*.

D-class (unrefined fuel sales, Non-TAS passenger facilities, cargo handing, & Minor repairs* only)= Minimum TL4*.

E-class (unrefined fuel sales, Non-TAS passenger facilities, & cargo handing)= Minimum TL Not Applicable (As seen through this thread, a world's tech level varies from TL0 to TL-F, like type X-class, and thus for this and the X-class ports have no bearing on a minimum TL).

During discussions with the TUGS** team, we have come to the conclusion some sort of passenger accomodations would exist at D & E-class ports for passengers, albeit they are far from TAS quality or capability, and so we label them Non-TAS passenger facilities.

---------------------------------------------------
* = those key features dictated by TL advancement which determine the port's base level of technology.

------------------------------------------------------
** TUGS = Traveller's Universal Guide to Starports, a tentative title for our LBB project.
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Another tech level wrinkle we often encounter that we have attempted to bridge here is explaining "why a starport exists on a listed mainworld with a tech level of prestellar tech."

With the 3rd Imperium as our model in Traveller, we noted that the Imperial Starport system has conformed to one of two unwritten/ or presumed rules.
World Builder's Handbook p92 says ...

"The tech level of a world is seldom tied to the starport tech level. Most worlds consider the starport to be extraterritorial, and when the Scouts consider the world's technology ratings, they typically ignore any technology within the starport's bounds."

... and later ...

"No matter what the world's tech level is, starports always have a minimum tech level which exists within the starport's borders. These minimums are:

Class A Starport: TL 10
Class B Starport: TL 9
Class C Starport: TL 8
Class D Starport: TL 7
Class E Starport: TL 6
Class X Starport: TL 0"


That's for MT. Don't know if there was anything different in any other ruleset.

Regards PLST
 
Originally posted by Hemdian:
World Builder's Handbook p92 says ...

"The tech level of a world is seldom tied to the starport tech level. Most worlds consider the starport to be extraterritorial, and when the Scouts consider the world's technology ratings, they typically ignore any technology within the starport's bounds."

... and later ...

"No matter what the world's tech level is, starports always have a minimum tech level which exists within the starport's borders. These minimums are:

Class A Starport: TL 10
Class B Starport: TL 9
Class C Starport: TL 8
Class D Starport: TL 7
Class E Starport: TL 6
Class X Starport: TL 0"


That's for MT. Don't know if there was anything different in any other ruleset.

Regards PLST
Most Excellent, Hemdian--another book I do not own! And a baseline to proceed from, to be sure, our thanks!

On A-class, the soonest a J-1 drive can be built at is TL9, hence our TL line there, which is re-echoed in later TNE, T20 & GT, as well as their predecessor CT.

On B-class, the spacecraft must be manned. It does not specify rocket-launched 1-shot capsules, reusable shuttles, or early gravitic space vehicles. This could arguably TL6 or TL7. based on the MT-HT era hybrid spacecraft Frontier Fuel harvester whose hull was built at TL7, but whose internal parts at TL5 & 6 (allowing for maintenance survivability down to TL5)the argument weights towards TL7 I'll concede. Furthermore, even CT & T20 have early 1 & 2G Manuever drive engines starting at TL7.

C-class, must be an industrialized world TL5+, capable of moving large sections of starship, Hull pieces, so forth to be able to accomplish "major repairs", and as seen by GT, be able to stably refine LHyd fuel on a basis more than seen pre-Heisenburg process at TL4.

D-class performs "minor repairs", sells unrefined fuel (natural water/ice bodies, gas giants, ice-steriods to manufactured TL4 unstable LHyd).

Arguably a minor repair to the starship's computer system can be said. and the small freighter's/ spacecraft Mod/1 computer begins at TL5 within the Imperium.

E-class offers no Ship or subcraft repairs whatsoever, no matter the Traveller mechanic version. Fuel is where you find here. Cargo is handled, passengers too by local available technology. the Big thing here in E-class ports is they're open to Imperial trade ships (within the Imperium), and come in all sizes, shapes and locales.

Now agreeably, they're laid out with similar features : Landing field, cargo holding area, passenger holding area, refueling area, X-trality boundaries..in an earlier post in this thread, I recalled a campaign where the Xtrality "fence" was simple dolmens of stone set at intervals about where the starship landed on a TL2-3 world for example, and that was big enough for a single 100 or 200dtn ship to land, and had a single caretaker & his family set aside from his tribe for this duty.

One can argue a radio is needed, but even visual signalling with lighting at low technology levels can be accomplished from torches/ braziers, or some such primitive non-electric , or daylight only landings allowed, as the GM allows, only by the breadth of his/her imagination. Still others have postulated an automatic beacon with regular offworld maintenance can keep costs lower, and manpower to a minimum. A grassy field or clearing, to a wide open plateau, or small mesa; to a crushed gravel field spread by the Chinese Steam shovel method of TL1 mass labor, all of these to the paved tarmac of a TL7+ airfield qualify as an E-class field.

Traffic is of course the variable, as is the system's population with the port thus assigned in the UWP. A High pop E-class world (9-A) will see more traffic in a month than a low pop (0-4) one on the average.

I omitted the X-class, any world with technology can choose NOT to build a starport (Sabiqmys/Lishun is TL-17, & Interdicted/ Red Zoned for example) all the way to The stone-age TL0 primitive worlds who LACK the ability to do so.
 
Just to undermine my preveous post a bit: while the main thrust of the article I was quoting sounds about right, I am concerned over class E and X starport classifications. I've been going over the Core Routes website today and it seems that class E is used (with Marc Miller's blessing) to mean "no starport" (so how can it have a TL minimum?). Meanwhile, class X means the Scouts are not saying because its a restricted world. (I'm thinking of Shionthy/Regina, which is a Red Zone yet has a thriving community of asteroid miners on Imperial contract. I bet they have access to class C facilities, possibly even class B.)

Sorry, random observations. Must dash, Ref'ing a game tonight.

Regards PLST
 
E always sounded like "no actual starport". Just land on whatever bare patch of ground you can find.

X implied either "unknown" or "nobody can land here" (ie actively restricted)
 
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