Starship Yards and Ownership Issues

[Ran Targas]

So I 'm a newly appointed sovreign of a prosperous world and I purchase a shipyard. Sure I can do maintenance on ships passing through, given I can find the right spare parts, but can I legally build ships who's designs I dont purchase? Must I buy a franchise from one of the many ship builders who's names are houshold terms? Can I only build ships designed by my franchiser or can I purchase multiple?

I'm driving home the other day and pass a car dealership I've passed dozens of times and it makes me wonder ... Why don't ships in Trav have brands and are available only at selected locations? Shouldn't you have to take your ship to an authorized dealer for maintenance?

Mega and not so mega corporations must have their own lines of ships, designed by corporate architects on corporate salaries, that are only available and supported by corporate licensed shipyards. But there isn't any distinction in the OTU. It appears the intellectual property of the corporation fades into public domain very quickly. Explanation?

 

[rancke]

So I 'm a newly appointed sovreign of a prosperous world and I purchase a shipyard. Sure I can do maintenance on ships passing through, given I can find the right spare parts, but can I legally build ships who's designs I dont purchase? Must I buy a franchise from one of the many ship builders who's names are houshold terms? Can I only build ships designed by my franchiser or can I purchase multiple?

Some designs are not under copyright. The ones that are you can't build without permission.

I'm driving home the other day and pass a car dealership I've passed dozens of times and it makes me wonder ... Why don't ships in Trav have brands and are available only at selected locations? Shouldn't you have to take your ship to an authorized dealer for maintenance?

Starships are much more akin to ocean-going vessels than to cars.

Mega and not so mega corporations must have their own lines of ships, designed by corporate architects on corporate salaries, that are only available and supported by corporate licensed shipyards. But there isn't any distinction in the OTU. It appears the intellectual property of the corporation fades into public domain very quickly. Explanation?

The shipbuilding rules are very broad, above the level of detail that distinguishes one ship class from another with the same performance specs. If you (as a PC) wanted to build a Tukera Longliner, I would (as a referee), require you to pay a naval architect to design the Ran Targas Longliner, but I would cheerfully let you use the specs for the Tukera Longliner. I'd even let you use the deckplans, although I'd like it better if you made some cosmetic changes to them.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Actually, Hans, copyright would only protect the plans, not building ships from them... that would be patent.

And the Vilani patent system has been described in various ways - my preferred term for it is "excessive durations."

But ISTR references that the 3I doesn't enforce IP laws...

 

[Hemdian]

Some time ago I worked indirectly for a major auto maker’s spare parts organisation in Europe. Several brands, numerous models and model years, a dozen countries. Some parts would, after a time, be superceded. Sometimes the same part, from the same factory, would be packaged a number of different ways (with different pricing) because some customers will pay more for ‘genuine’ parts while others are satisfied by a ‘generic’ part. The internal catalogue numbers (that amalgamated all the brands) literally ran into millions.

This opened my eyes to the potential nightmare that any large empire in Traveller must face. If the 3I operated IP laws like the modern day western world then it would seriously struggle to grew larger than a few subsectors. A sector is probably the uppermost limit.

I did flirt with the idea of branding common starships as if they were cars once (had ships like the “LSP Suleiman 1100” Scout/Courier) but now I play it different. At least for some things. My answer was Imperial Design Packages from the MOT. You could still buy a Serpent class Scout/Courier from Delta Shipyards if you wish, or buy a generic Suleiman class Scout/Courier from anyone. But they would both use standardised parts.

In other areas, given the size and age of the 3I, media copyright laws similar to those imposed against us today, are largely impractical. In fact some of the more draconian laws in recent times are the result of an industry not adapting properly (or in a sufficiently timely fashion) to new ‘disruptive’ technologies. But the 3I encompasses a wide range of technologies ... so such a ‘culture shock’ won’t occur in its business executives. Region coding (for example) won’t exist (it’s an impediment to free trade), but on the other hand government-mandated censorship for all manner of reasons will exist to varying degrees on individual worlds.

 

[Selandia]

That is why my understanding of "standard type" was "standard" type, as is Liberty ship been "standard" ship design.

It is tempting for a builder or a buyer to have that little extra fitted on a ship. No problems for some fittings (cargo handling, passengers accommodations, software...etc). I would be a nervous free trader if I bought a patented wonder gizmo that allows my ship to operate wonders, but that is unavailable anywhere else in the universe because the patent owner refuse to sell licenses.

The only way for a free trader (or a yacht, to refer to another tread) to economically operate away from its building planet is to be built using as many "universal" parts as possible, or at least parts whose CAD/CAM data are stored on the ship's computer for downloading to a NCFS (Numerically Controlled Fabrication Systems) of fairly common standard. Otherwise, repairs would require the substitution of whole systems or subsystems by locally built equivalent. Sometime a "clone" card may do it cheap for your computer, sometime a whole new engine may be required.

Most likely, your yard would use public domain material unless a client require some item available only through licensed production. At that point you just purchase the goodies from the licensed manufacturer. As for the rest, don't bother, your highness, leave that to the folks of the IP department, that is why you pay them. The ship pricing system was always crude anyways

BTW, Currently very few yard produce ships as speculative venture. Before WWII some yards produced "standards" economy tramps to keep themselves busy, hoping (usually rightly) to sell them before they rolled of the slip. Liners are usually on order for they are adapted to specific market, while tramps play for average or modal trade patterns. Still, nothing prevent your universe from having whatever suit your game.

Selandia

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Which brings us to another threat:

Standardization is the key for the survival of any interstellar community. Ships and other products built on other worlds need to fit your gizmo no matter where you are. Without it, it's just a peice of junk waiting to be tossed out the airlock before entering jumpspace. without the ability to repair said gizmo, it's really nothing more than expensive paperweigh until you can find the parts to replace it. Consumers of such items are not going to buy said gizmo or starship based on this reason alone, they'll want to be able to repair at a reasonable tech level. So Trade goods would normally be of average tech level for the 3I.

Military items and ships are a different matter completely.

Now, think about this (Another tie in to another thread):

Shipyard B is at Class B starport building hulls for a customer. The salesman sold this unwary buyer a Jump capable ship. So do you do the dishonest thing or do you send for a Jump Drive from a Class A shipyard?

The question here is if Class B shipyard are limited to what type of ship they can build, can't they just import the necessary parts from a class A shipyard, then install them? Which changes the rules in Traveller....

 

[DangerousThing]

Shipyard B is at Class B starport building hulls for a customer. The salesman sold this unwary buyer a Jump capable ship. So do you do the dishonest thing or do you send for a Jump Drive from a Class A shipyard?

The question here is if Class B shipyard are limited to what type of ship they can build, can't they just import the necessary parts from a class A shipyard, then install them? Which changes the rules in Traveller....

I, for one, have never liked the linking of starport and shipyard. I usually have several of each at each system IMTU. A class B or even C shipyard *could* build a jump-capable ship if it was a small one and the customer was willing to take their time. IMTU TL in the Phoenix Empire is closer to 13-15 except in the rim worlds so repairing or building an FTL drive is relatively within their means, and to become even a Member world you need at least 1 billion in population this means that most worlds except for the rim have the technology and population to deal with a shipyard.

I use A-E for starports meaning size and comfort and A-E meaning size and capabilities of a shipyard.

But this is my take, not anybody else's. Though they can have it if they want it, it's clogging up my brain.

 

[Jame]

I, for one, have never liked the linking of starport and shipyard. I usually have several of each at each system IMTU. A class B or even C shipyard *could* build a jump-capable ship if it was a small one and the customer was willing to take their time. IMTU TL in the Phoenix Empire is closer to 13-15 except in the rim worlds so repairing or building an FTL drive is relatively within their means, and to become even a Member world you need at least 1 billion in population this means that most worlds except for the rim have the technology and population to deal with a shipyard.

I use A-E for starports meaning size and comfort and A-E meaning size and capabilities of a shipyard.

But this is my take, not anybody else's. Though they can have it if they want it, it's clogging up my brain.

Yours is actually similar to mine.

For me, an A port could build any size of anything, while a B could build up to, say, any size spaceship and up to 600 tons of starship, while a C couldn't build starships but could build up to 1000 tons of spaceship and a D could build small craft.

 

[LiminalMask]

Yours is actually similar to mine.

For me, an A port could build any size of anything, while a B could build up to, say, any size spaceship and up to 600 tons of starship, while a C couldn't build starships but could build up to 1000 tons of spaceship and a D could build small craft.

Is there a fundamental difference between a spaceship and a starship other than the presence of a Jump drive? If not, why would a particular ship yard be able to build, say, a 1000 ton boat, but not a 1000 ton ship? The size of the hull doesn't seem to matter in my thinking, does it? It's the ability to install a J-Drive and its related electronics. Yes?

 

[DaveChase]

I had always kind of assumed that the standard drives listed in CT LBB 2 were pre made engines. You could always get parts and a replacement engine for them if needed, almost any where, might have to order and wait 30 days for delivery or such.

I also figured that only a Class A starport had any type of true building/manfacturering faucilities. The others only could rebuild or make generic type ships.

Class A could make any ship, even one of kind.

Of course some places have a ship building yard besides the Class A, B, or C space port.

Dave Chase

 

[McPerth]

The question here is if Class B shipyard are limited to what type of ship they can build, can't they just import the necessary parts from a class A shipyard, then install them? Which changes the rules in Traveller....

I guess that will depend on how do you imagine the Jump Drive to be.

The way MT explained them, with all the lantanum (or other less efficient metals) gird included in the hull, could well need an A shipyard to be built, while if you asume the JD to be an enterily separate part of the ship (like the engine is for a car), as CT Bk2 seems to hint, it could probably be built in a shipyard and set to be assembled into another, that wouldn't need to be an A starport.

 

[Selandia]

While we are banging those nails, I always considered that A shipyards meant an industrial complex capable to built even super bulker at an economically viable price. As any car restorer will tell you, you could built a car in a backyard shed if you can find the part and the time. That does not mean that you could compete with a modern car assembly plan to produce a current sedan at competitive price. A and B capability are not philosophical "can" but economical "can". The USA can build the most complex things afloat, but can't built a super tanker (the shell of a vast empty space, tricky at time, but infinitly less complex to build than a nuclear aircraft carrier) in an open market.

In my mind, B yards and even C yards could do repairs if parts are available. Time and cost get to be adjusted for tooling and skill. If my Starship is damaged, I could repair it on nearly any world with docking if I could get the parts.

And yes, I always considered the standard engine Bk2 to be public domain "universal" stuff, akind to the coal fired Scotch cylindrical boiler and triple expansion steam engine of the British tramps of the interwar years (make it Babcock Wilcock water tube oil fired for US). This also explain why a Eng 1 of CT would works on any type of engine and not some specific type, standardized engine = standardized formation.

This is not just philosophical, toward the late 30, HAPAG considered using diesel electric on its liner mostly because you could provide whatever power needed by providing more or less engine/generator combination. Once you learned the operation of the Sulzer diesel and Siemens generator tandem, (and the electric motor of course) it was just a mater of putting 4, 5, or 6 cylinders engines in 2, 3 or 4 tandem on single or twin screws and voila for a common supply of part and trained personnel.

Selandia

 

[Rigel Stardin]

McPerth: I've alway consider Jump Drive a seprate "engine or device". Grids have the suggestion that there is a generator or device powering it. Ship's with grids suggest to me Hyperspace Generators. While the term 'drive' suggests a self contained device that doesn't need a grid to operate: ei Hyperdrive.

As far as shipyards are concerned. There is really no difference between an A or B. I really never got why one could only build spacecraft and the other Starships so in MTU A's are larger and better equipped while B's are just smaller than A's. C's are basically gas stations while F's rest stops. Construction of Starship's can only take place at A's and B's, C's can do overhauls but little else without importing necessary replacement parts.

 

[mike wightman]

The lanthanum hull grid is a DGPism - in CT lanthanum was used for the coils in the jump drive.

That said the hull of a jump ship is different to the hull of a spaceship in that it does contain cabling,filaments or whatever to allow the jump field affect.

It could be that a type A star port has the machinery etc for servicing the inner workings of the jump drive and the hull grid while a B lacks the equipment to safely delve into the inner workings of the drive.

 

[Hyphen]

There's also a canonical reference somewhere in Bk 5 that says a world can build (military?) starships even without a Class-A port.

 

[aramis]

There's also a canonical reference somewhere in Bk 5 that says a world can build (military?) starships even without a Class-A port.

I can't find it, but can find in both TCS and Bk5 reiterations that starships can only be built at Class A ports.

 

[rancke]

There's also a canonical reference somewhere in Bk 5 that says a world can build (military?) starships even without a Class-A port.

I can't find it, but can find in both TCS and Bk5 reiterations that starships can only be built at Class A ports.

Page 20, chapter heading "Starship Construction", sub-heading "STARSHIP DESIGN", sub-sub-heading "Technological Level", 2nd paragraph:

"The Imperial Navy may procure ships of up to tech level 15, although it also procures vessels at tech level 10 through 14. A subsector navy may procure ships at any shipyards within its borders. A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard withing the border of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present."​

Hans

 

[Ran Targas]

In response to previous posts, there is very little chance that the ever insidious and pervasive mega corps in Trav don't have there sticky paws in shipbuilding to the point of monopoly. These companies are styled after the robber barons and have government support both financially and politically, of course they would control this commodity essential to trade and defense.

Today the major shipyards around the world are controlled by conglomerates and defense contractors. They build ships based on designs they have either developed themselves or have contracted to utilize. There are very few designs that would be considered public domain and technical capability of a yard limits your options. Yards that build high tech military ships are very specialized.

If you carry the concept over to the aviation industry, it's pretty similar; you can build an small aircraft in your garage but to build a jetliner you need the facilities, the staff, and the parts. And Boeing doesn't build Airbus.

Thoughts?

 

[McPerth]

McPerth: I've alway consider Jump Drive a seprate "engine or device". Grids have the suggestion that there is a generator or device powering it. Ship's with grids suggest to me Hyperspace Generators. While the term 'drive' suggests a self contained device that doesn't need a grid to operate: ei Hyperdrive.

As MT described it (or at least as I understood it), JD had several parts. One was the drive itself, that fits on what you describe and can be removed from the ship and sent separately. Another was the energy sinks, that I guess can also be removed from the ship. And the third was the hull gird that allowed the othr two parts to form the jump bubble, and those would be integral to the hull, so may not be removed from it.

I guess the main difference among A and B starports (in shipbuilding capacity) is precisely the capacity to incorporate this gird to the hull (or to build the hull with the gird), while a ship may be even refited in a B class starport because the hull has already the gird, and so other pieces may be assembled to it.

Of course that is MT, CT is less specific. And of course this is my interpretation of MT canon, not canon itself.

And, of course, and above all, it's your TU, so your rules and interpretation, as long as you and your players have fun

The lanthanum hull grid is a DGPism - in CT lanthanum was used for the coils in the jump drive.

DGPism or not, AFAIK, MT is canon, and the explanation it gave about JD was valid to me (even more than the no explanation CT gave, at least, none that I had read).

Page 20, chapter heading "Starship Construction", sub-heading "STARSHIP DESIGN", sub-sub-heading "Technological Level", 2nd paragraph:

"The Imperial Navy may procure ships of up to tech level 15, although it also procures vessels at tech level 10 through 14. A subsector navy may procure ships at any shipyards within its borders. A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard withing the border of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present."​

Hans

Several points here:

-As it specifies that planetary navy (no one else) may build them, I guess that it requires as many ressources that no one else is allowed to do it.
-Of course the ships so built must be able to land in the planet, so, as we already discussed on other threads, they must be streamlined (if the planet has atmosphere) and I guess there's a size limit (though we couldn't find the reference when discussed it before).

 

[McPerth]

In response to previous posts, there is very little chance that the ever insidious and pervasive mega corps in Trav don't have there sticky paws in shipbuilding to the point of monopoly. These companies are styled after the robber barons and have government support both financially and politically, of course they would control this commodity essential to trade and defense.

Today the major shipyards around the world are controlled by conglomerates and defense contractors. They build ships based on designs they have either developed themselves or have contracted to utilize. There are very few designs that would be considered public domain and technical capability of a yard limits your options. Yards that build high tech military ships are very specialized.

If you carry the concept over to the aviation industry, it's pretty similar; you can build an small aircraft in your garage but to build a jetliner you need the facilities, the staff, and the parts. And Boeing doesn't build Airbus.

Thoughts?

I have always been a defender that the Imperium must use quite standarized parts and building techniques for the Navy to work. After all, a ship may end serving quite far from where it was built, and if the spare parts must be taken from its shipyard, IN would soon fall to various sector (or even subsector) Navies unable to support each other effectively.

This was quite discussed in this thread a year and a half ago: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=23597