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Starships, Explosions, and Mortgages

1) I just can't see an uncrackable technology here. I work in computers. It stretches the credibility for me more than Jump Drive.

2) I chopshop your ship. The stolen parts get refitted into a pre-existing ship with a legitemate transponder. The transponder won't do any screaming because it has no way to know that the jump drive is not a legitemate purchase.

3) The chip will only scream (if we accept the premise of these transponders as the deyo model) if it knows something to prove that their is a theft to report. Surely one can (as a smart criminal) envision apparently legitemate ways to make these things report everything is fine.

4) If they are living things, they would have some sort of self-preservation drive. Pointing out to the transponder that screaming is followed by being melted by an FGMP might convince it that its best interests lie in NOT reporting things outside the ordinary.
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
...

4) If they are living things, they would have some sort of self-preservation drive. Pointing out to the transponder that screaming is followed by being melted by an FGMP might convince it that its best interests lie in NOT reporting things outside the ordinary.
If the AI is that smart (and TNE suggests it is eventually), and as tied into systems as TNE suggested, well, threats are a dumb move sophont
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You gotta sleep sometime, the AI doesn't
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As for stolen parts on legit otherwise ships, that should be caught at your next annual recertification. Barring incompetance on the inspectors part, or bribery ;)
 
My Lord Kaladorn, I would say that your submissions to the moot are compelling - but the chopshops you are referring to must be fairly sophisticated and thus rare and not hanging about on every startown corner - hence mortgagees can have confidence that their money is not disappearing with the iridium grid.

You work in computers - I work in the property law - From that angle there is a simple proposition: no one is going to lend on moveable security unless that security is secure - mortgages on ships are canon - the Deyo transponder system and its resistance to tampering is a good canonical answer to this problem.

As to the FGMP conundrum: remeber that no one knew the Deyo was AI - hence virus took hold so easily!
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
As for stolen parts on legit otherwise ships, that should be caught at your next annual recertification. Barring incompetance on the inspectors part, or bribery ;)
Depends where you get inspected and what your XO's Bribery level is, as you say. Or the technoflimflammery level of your engineer


I agree with the comment made about property law. Or more correctly, let me put it into an insurance man's lingo, since Dad worked in that line of work for a bit of time.

The actuarial tables will be setup such that fees charged will reflect losses + profit. If losses go up, so do fees (in this case, interest on loans).

Things I can see working, since I don't think transponders are the foolproof answer:

Imperial Ministry of Justice - sharing data between worlds on skipped ships. Sure, if you run and keep running, you can outrun the data. But if you ever turn back or stop, it'll catch up eventually. Justice isn't fast sometimes, but it works eventually.

Skip Tracers - I can see a thriving business in skip tracing. Good high tech recovery teams with warrants to operate as recovery agents in Imperial territory and with a mid-jump starship (better than most freighters or other ships likely to be hijacked). I mean, if a ship insurer has to pay 20% of ships value to get it back, that's still a deal compared with 100%


Software Safegaurds - a Bank could demand you run with 'LockWare' installed that locks up the controls at some predetermined time if you haven't visited a branch, made a payment, and got an updated security code. It also locks up instantly if it catches you cracking it. Very high computer level needed to crack.

Lobbying for Ruthless Punishments for 'Skips' - If every time one of these guys is brought back, he gets life imprisonment on some unpleasant rock, that's a bit of a deterrent. And caught skips would be publicized just to help convey the point that 'you ain't gettin' away from the banks'.
Ever notice how in real life, some financial crimes can really get the book thrown at you? (Now, not all of them, but particular ones that annoy the powerful and rich?)

Transponder - It isn't be all end all. They can probably be tampered with, fooled, or reasoned with (hey, a complicit transponder... interesting idea!). They can obviously be threatened with being starved of power (food). They may even be able to be negotiated with. Who knows, depending on the reasons, they may even want to help. But one way or another, they are *a* line of defence.
I just don't see them as the be all end all.

Many ships could be stripped of easily-removable stuff fast and left drifting or sent into a sun or gas giant to get rid of them. Things like vacc suits, the captains safe, computer programs, cargo, fuel, easily removable circuit modules, small craft, perhaps even weapons and the like.

Other things like the jump drive, the manouver drive, masking systems, etc. might take more to strip off and require a black yard. Sure these will be rare, but who would know about them? The kind of folks who need them - pirates, scum, etc. In fact, an illicit privateering or piracy campaign may be underwritten by a megacorp yard or a planetary navy yard if they're 1) running a game their higher ups don't know about or 2) running a game their higher ups have ordered for some political end (knowing the risks if they get caught). Think of this as an economic version of the kind of operation that Mr. Ritter organized in the Tom Clancy movie with Harrison Ford and Willem Dafoe (Clear and Present Danger?).

So, the answer is: Yes, banks will set rates that reflect losses. The standard rates in the book probably reflect 'secure' sector rates (like the more civilized parts of the marches during the stable 3I). As times change, or as you get further out, banks will want higher and higher rates and in some situations, will not undertake the risk deeming there to be no sufficient point of return that they can count on (the rates are so high people always skip or that they'd bankrupt any merchant venture sadled with them).

Banks may also consider things like giving a discounted rate for ships willing to carry one or more of their agents as crew. I mean, a bank having to pay a salary to the agent as well as him getting a crew salary makes it good for him to stay, and he probably has a family somewhere the bank can get at, so this tends to insure his loyalty.

Also, the bank may give high initial rates, and give reductions for captains who make a year, two years, five years, ten years, or twenty years worth of payments. That is to say, you become less of a risk once you establish a history of payment and success.

There are some other thoughts.
 
This is a bit off topic but does anyone allow ships older than 40 years old to operate in their TU? To me it seems as if that's the only way "average" party of PCs can get ahold of one. I can see 80 or 100-year old free traders on the market for 3-5 MCr which is much more in reach. Of course this opens up the whole range of maintenance headaches, trouble with Imperial inspections, endless plot possibilities inherent due to the constant threat of malfunctions...

It's always seemed a bit odd to me that starships only lasted 40 years. In fact, I'll bet outlying regions such as Gateway Domain are chock full of flying rustbuckets which had been "decommissioned" by megacorps and even the IISS.
 
Originally posted by roygbiv:
This is a bit off topic but does anyone allow ships older than 40 years old to operate in their TU?
Oh, my, yes.


There are lots of old ships floating around MTU. I have ship-graveyards, both land based and orbital based, that are similar to todays car junkyards and aircraft graveyards. Frequently, there are "used starship" lots attached to these, and nearby there are "monster starship" builders souping up old starships in their own private yards. Etc., ad infinitum.

It's possible to walk into a used starship lot on some worlds and pick up a 100 year old Type-S for 5 MCr (no weapons, turrent, or air/raft). Crikey, ain't she a bueat!

Of course, she may be a bit temperamental, but if you treat her just right, she'll luv ya!
 
I've noticed while reading through the ship descriptions in CT Supplement 9: Fighting ships that several of the Imperial warships in that book are well over forty years old and still in service.

IMTU it isn't unusual to find ships well into their third mortgage. That's about one hundred years old.
 
Well, the just two major reason I could imagine, why older ships are removed from service:
- they represent a hazard for the spacefaring community
- the maintainance costs are greater than possible incomes

As long as annual maintainance is performed correctly I would let the ship run, and run, and run. But this would keep its value on a high level, too.
You might take a look at the TNE rules dealing with "wear values" malfunctions and maintainance of old stuff.

I could imagine that imperial SPAs puts badly maintainanced ships on a "black list", which prevents those to approach starports for trading or passanger transport. Perhaps really bad ships are forced out of service by law.

So old starships, perhaps in family property for generations, are peaclefully moving around IMTU, too


Regards,

Mert
 
Well, the just two major reason I could imagine, why older ships are removed from service:
- they represent a hazard for the spacefaring community
- the maintainance costs are greater than possible incomes

As long as annual maintainance is performed correctly I would let the ship run, and run, and run. But this would keep its value on a high level, too.
You might take a look at the TNE rules dealing with "wear values" malfunctions and maintainance of old stuff.

I could imagine that imperial SPAs puts badly maintainanced ships on a "black list", which prevents those to approach starports for trading or passanger transport. Perhaps really bad ships are forced out of service by law.

So old starships, perhaps in family property for generations, are peacefully moving around IMTU, too


Regards,

Mert
 
Much of this is 20th century Earth-think. In Traveller these ships are built of substances far more durable than the ordinary steel of our ocean-going vessels. You really can have a centuries-old hull in good condition.

Maneuver and Jump engines aren't like reciprocating IC or turbine engines that suffer high wear in order to produce crude physical force effects (torque, thrust, etc). Parts that are subject to wear or various form of degradation get replaced on an annual basis. You really can have a centuries-old drive unit in good condition.
 
You really can have a centuries-old hull in good condition ... You really can have a centuries-old drive unit in good condition.
recent arguments have demonstrated that imperial finances are sufficient to purchase huge fleets of naval vessels. if one factors in this consideration then the number of vessels in the imperial navy becomes quite large.
 
Originally posted by Straybow:
Much of this is 20th century Earth-think. [...] You really can have a centuries-old hull in good condition.

[...] You really can have a centuries-old drive unit in good condition.
Oh, I definitely agree.

Quite some time ago, I tried to formulate a system where starship mortgages were 80 years long, based on advanced hulls, etc. It seemed to break the rest of the system (and its non-canonicity didn't help), and so I left off.
 
I always assumed that the lifetime of a ship in good nick and maintenance was infinite. Much like the Ship of Theseus Paradox

The forty year term I always undertook to represent the mean time until (Piracy/Misjump/Naval Weapons Accident/Lifetime of Owner) rather then based on any parts wear concept.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Oh, I definitely agree.

Quite some time ago, I tried to formulate a system where starship mortgages were 80 years long, based on advanced hulls, etc. It seemed to break the rest of the system (and its non-canonicity didn't help), and so I left off.
Well I see several ways around "breaking the system."

First, you can assert that the strong Vilani influence in the 3I is probably going to mean that starships are rotated out of active service after 40 years because "that's the way things are done!" and the Vilani loooove tradition. That the canonical 3I is fairly stagnant technologically and probably economically as well suggests that the Vilani conservatism still exerts a powerful influence. The Imperial tax structure may even make it almost mandatory for most fleets to capitalize their their ships over 40 years so you'd see entire fleets being rotated this way to satisfy the Ministry of Commerce's regulations for financing.

So what happens to these ships? I'm guessing that rather than being scrapped they're sold off to smaller subsidiaries and feeder lines.

Also think about the Navy and the IISS. When the Suleiman displaced the Iiken class Scout Courier, thousands of ships would have to have been disposed of. It stretches credulity to think that they were all scrapped: instead they'd be "gifted" to client states, colonial fleets, planetary defense forces and, while no self-respecting main liner from the Imperial core would touch such a vessel, on the fringes, (where T20 is set!), these ships are going to be irresistable. True, demand may keep costs slightly inflated, but the market is going to be flooded.

The only other alternatives I can contemplate are that the scrapyard industries are some of the biggest employers in Imperial space, given the number of ships which would be decommissioned on a 40-year basis, or the Imperium is full of mothballed ships. Think about it: there are probably a couple hundred thousand Suleimans in service. What happens when a better model comes along? With entire asteroid belts full of raw materials, resource recovery would not be a very profitable business so you either have entire rockball systems littered with mothballed ships, or, far more likely, these ships are distributed on the fringes of the Imperium. Extrapolate that to the number of IN logistics vessels (we already know what happens to warships) and you have thousands of old ships in circulation, or else there are entire systems devoted to mothballing them.

I should probably disclose that I use the Gurps ruleset and GT:Starships does place a theoretical maximum life of a GTL12/T20 TL15 military grade starship at 2000 years, assuming proper maintenance and overhauls.

The 40 year amortization plan may be de rigeur throughout the Imperial core sectors, but I guarantee you areas like Gateway are going to be chock full of ships who are enjoying a useful life at 80, 100, or even 120 years.

And I don't think this breaks the system because the people who will be buying these well-loved vessels will be the shiftless, PCs who are lusting after adventure. Make the purchase cost of an 80 year-old Type A in the 8-10MCr range and allow this to be amortized over 15 years, with a balloon payment for the balance due at 10 years (exactly how most modern ships are financed today) and you've put a ship within reach of a party of scruffy PC's.

Yes, they'll get hassled more ofen. Yes they're going to have to scrounge for parts or may even suffer a catastrophic failure because the evil GM needs a plot hook, but think of the possibilities. Instead of Adventures in Accurate Accounting, you've got a vehicle for the bunch of crazy, impulsive PCs and countless opportunities for role playing.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
recent arguments have demonstrated that imperial finances are sufficient to purchase huge fleets of naval vessels. if one factors in this consideration then the number of vessels in the imperial navy becomes quite large.
I agree, there should be a lot more examples of TL14 ships upgraded with TL15 components.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Quite some time ago, I tried to formulate a system where starship mortgages were 80 years long, based on advanced hulls, etc. It seemed to break the rest of the system (and its non-canonicity didn't help), and so I left off.
You might be onto something though.
A ship that's handed down through the family, but still with a 100 year mortgage to pay, could make it easier to get higher jump number ships into the hands of PCs without having to change any of the economics rules (apart from this one of course ;) ).

It's becoming more common here in the UK for home owners to take mortgages that will only be repaid fully by their children - isn't the same thing common in Japan as well?
 
One thing I didn't like about vanilla HG2 construction was that TL didn't seem to affect some systems. When it did affect them, sometimes it affected volume, and sometimes it affected price, and sometimes it provided better capability, but never in any consistent way.

For instance, hulls. Hulls don't even get a chart in CT:Book 5. Just a text entry on p. 21 & 22. TL has no impact, even though TL does have an impact on Armor.

This sort of thing frequently caused me to pull at my hair while wondering how it had all been put together.

In some cases, there was little point in going up a TL at all.

For instance, unless you need J-5, I can't see much reason to build TL-14 vessels at all. TL-14 is the orphan of the HG2 design sequence. Oh yes, meson spinal mounts do get some better guns at TL-14. Bay weapons get a little better. Fusion guns get a bump. But spinal mounts don't matter to civilian shipping, bay weapons can be yanked and new ones dropped in at the tip of hat, and fusion guns aren't used extensively (at least they don't appear too often in CT:Supplement 9: Fighting Ships; and frankly, I'm not impressed with them as a weapons system). That is why, overall, those don't amount to "much" in my book. I guess the IN would have been hot to get it's hands on the new spinal mounts when TL-14 first arrived, but does that one factor really influence the entire spectrum of decision making that surrounds ship-building? I don't think so.

An upgrade from a TL-14 to a TL-15 would look more like, IMO, an upgrade from TL-13 to TL-15, in many respects.


EDIT--Many--Shortly after initial posts.
 
Originally posted by roygbiv:
Make the purchase cost of an 80 year-old Type A in the 8-10MCr range and allow this to be amortized over 15 years, with a balloon payment for the balance due at 10 years (exactly how most modern ships are financed today) and you've put a ship within reach of a party of scruffy PC's.
Could you provide a more detailed example (including numbers and lots of connect-the-dots examples) of how that works?
 
Ok, let me step in and explain what I meant by my remark, "break the rest of the system".

When you extend the mortgage term to 80 years, payment sizes drop dramatically. Starship crews can, under the original expenses figures given in CT, can do more than ok, they'll do a gangbusters business, have plenty left over for speculation, and will grow wildly rich very quickly.

When I was really working on this idea (1985, age 15), I really wasn't smart enough to figure out a complete new set of interlocking and working rules to make the whole thing run properly from a game balance perspective[/b]. So that the PCs wouldn't be broke-for-sure just for owning the starship, and wouldn't be run-away rich overnight, either.

It appears I'm still not really smart enough to figure it out.
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At least not tonight.

<shuts down computer, flops into bed />
 
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