T20 Drednaughts? What is the point?

[Theophilus]

Exactly:
You need to armour a "dreadnaught" till it can stand up to a few hits.

As far a "suicidal pilots" goes, where do you get pilots willing to fly airliners into buildings.
And it seems to me like hundreds of Japanese pilots did just that sort of thing. An as far as Aslan go. If their willing to play chicken for honor, why not!
Hiver and K'kree like robotic suicide craft.

AND, If every weapon hits, only the sandcasters and passive defenses remain. with over 18,000 missiles inbound HOW MANY WILL GET THROUGH?

 

[aramis]

Armor 12 doesn't reduce 9d6 of missile to 1d6-4 damage... it reduces 9d6 to 9d6K1 -4, nor 9d8 of laser to 1d8-4, but to (9d8K1)-4

So assuming an average-high spread of 6,5,5,4,4,3,3,2,1, it will be 2 poinnts of damage. ...with a high probability of the higest die being a 6. (80.6%). And about a 17% chance of a 5 as the highest die.

and for the laser: 9,8,7,6,5,5,4,3,2,1: average damage will in fact be, for the same AV 12, some 2-3 points. (there is a 99.8% chance of the best die being a 5+, or doing 1 point.
99.5% of 6+, doing 2+ points
92.5% of 7+, doing 3+ points
69.9% of an 8 being the best die, and doing 4 points.

You can't just cancel dice with armor before rolling, as it cancels the lowest dice of the full roll... then reduces the best die. And results in WHOLLY WRONG probabilities.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually your Laser Head factor 9 salvo will be 9+3.5 D10 of damage, so against AF12 you are going to get in 8-10 points of damage. on average. You could actually score your 3 highest dice for damage. (If you rolled a 6 for number of extra hits.) Nukes, vs a ship without a Nuclear Damper are nastier because it is 5 extra dice all the time. (And they Crit 15% of the time ignoring your armor all together doing double damage (Average of 98 points of SI.)) 14D6 you will score 12-14 points of damage. With a Factor 9 Nuclear Damper and AF12 your factor 9 missile salvo does no damage. (Matter of fact it does no damage reducing the Damper to 7 or the AF to 10 or go with 8 and 11.) Go to the Strategic scale for the advance combat rules and the 5 extra dice make things very nasty. You are correct though that the highest dice are the ones that are left. Originally I was trying to make the point on how badly, under the rules a Crit from a Meson Spinal Mount was. (Which under the rules crits 55% of the time, more often than it hits.)

Originally posted by Aramis:
Armor 12 doesn't reduce 9d6 of missile to 1d6-4 damage... it reduces 9d6 to 9d6K1 -4, nor 9d8 of laser to 1d8-4, but to (9d8K1)-4

So assuming an average-high spread of 6,5,5,4,4,3,3,2,1, it will be 2 poinnts of damage. ...with a high probability of the higest die being a 6. (80.6%). And about a 17% chance of a 5 as the highest die.

and for the laser: 9,8,7,6,5,5,4,3,2,1: average damage will in fact be, for the same AV 12, some 2-3 points. (there is a 99.8% chance of the best die being a 5+, or doing 1 point.
99.5% of 6+, doing 2+ points
92.5% of 7+, doing 3+ points
69.9% of an 8 being the best die, and doing 4 points.

You can't just cancel dice with armor before rolling, as it cancels the lowest dice of the full roll... then reduces the best die. And results in WHOLLY WRONG probabilities.

 

[BetterThanLife]

The key isn't how many fighters you can build but how many you can get to the combat zone. They don't jump. However the Fleet Carrier from either Sup 9 or the one from TA7 carries enough fighters to take down a Perisher. (They better be 50T FH with AF14-15 and a real computer or a Perisher will be able to kill most of them before they get close enough to see it and fire.) Factor 9 Nukes and Factor 9 Particle bays make short work of unarmored fighters. A Dryad has a model one computer. Which means that the sensor range is one hex on the Strategic scale. Ooops too close. And you have to launch from far enough out that the Perisher doesn't turn the Meson Cannon on your carrier before you get them into space. With a Launch rate of 40 fighters per launch tube per turn, You had better be a long way back. (Would it be 5 times that on Strategic scale?) A Perisher can swat 250 unarmored fighters per turn or any carrier in two turns. Of course if you have two Atlantics as part of your Carrier Group escorts, they, under the T20 rules, can swat a Perisher in one turn. Why bother with the Fighters? For planetary defense build some 10KT to 15KT monitors with Spinal Mesons, Any Spinal Meson over H will auto hit any ship design and Crit 55% of the time auto killing any ship up to and including 10,000,000 Tons. Fighters are not cost effective in a fleet action. Remember throughout history it has never been the fighter that was the expensive part it has always been the pilot that was the difficult to replace component. (Of course in a Fleet Action under the T20 rules Dreds aren't the cost effective answer either.) Your best ship is The Smallest Cruiser you can build with 6g Maneuver 6 agility and AF12+, Smallest Spinal Meson H+ TL allows, Meson Screen 9 and Nuke Damper 9 and what ever Jump your fleet mobility requirements are. With all the Missile Bays and Point defense Lasers you can put on it to keep the pesky, though ineffective fighters away. If you really want to get cost effective then go with a Buffered Planetoid in the Large Cruiser range with the same specs and a Factor J Meson mount. (Harder to hit with a Spinal Meson mount but still gets auto hit with a Factor H+ Weapon.

)

Originally posted by Theophilus:
As I said in the other thread, my hang-up is still the price/ vs effectiveness arguement. While it's true you may kill my fighters by the hundred's, at over 244,000 Mcr each for the Perisher I can build over 6000 "bombers", With three missiles each that's over 18,000 missiles. If only 1% make it thru, that's still 180 hits.

On the other hand, I can build 9900 Dryad fighters, Can anyone say "divine wind" boys and girls?

Obviously, a "Dread Naught" with no armor had better dread something or it won't last long.

 

[aramis]

Under extant rulre, thos e"Big Guns" will kill 1 fighter each per round. My fighter group need only do 1 point of SI to roll internal damage... and at factors of 5+, not rolling 1 point vs any reaasonable armor rating (IE, pre T20) is less than 10%... so fighters CAN AND WILL strip systems off the big ships. Or even the small ships.

SI isn't what kills big ships; losing all the combat systems is. If you get lucky, and erradicate the PP, the ship IS DEAD, but very recoverable.

 

[BetterThanLife]

This is true, but since a Spinal Meson, virtually any spinal Meson auto hits, Crits 55% of the time and an average crit from a Spinal Meson destroys any starship less than 10,000,000 tons outright (And Vaporizes any Starship shown to date.) why bother with fighters. (Oh and a factor 9 meson bay crits 30% of the time and kills everything with one Crit. The Factor 4 Meson Bay just misses, with an average roll killing a Perisher with one Crit. My 5KTon Destroyers carry two 50T meson bays. A Desron of 8 Destroyers will on average kill 4 Perishers per turn.
At MCr 3311 each or roughly 1.4% of the cost of a Perisher. (Oh and they kill a Tigress just as easily.) Without a doubt I will lose a few destroyers but I don't take as long to put the Dreds down. I am not giving the damage control teams a chance to repair things while I am shooting at it.

Originally posted by Aramis:
Under extant rulre, thos e"Big Guns" will kill 1 fighter each per round. My fighter group need only do 1 point of SI to roll internal damage... and at factors of 5+, not rolling 1 point vs any reaasonable armor rating (IE, pre T20) is less than 10%... so fighters CAN AND WILL strip systems off the big ships. Or even the small ships.

SI isn't what kills big ships; losing all the combat systems is. If you get lucky, and erradicate the PP, the ship IS DEAD, but very recoverable.

 

[lightsenshi]

I understand how devastiating (sp!) a meson gun can be but why would you multiply radiation damage? It would be treated the same as a sneak attack or other special ability and not be multiplied.

So...16d20 in damage should roughly equal about 168 points of damage (x10 for critical). Radiation damage amounts to about 104 points of damage for an end result of about 1784 points of damage. Still not survivable, I realize but not quite as bad as you suggested...

 

[cmdrx]

Yes, Meson screens are supposed to absorb meson beams. The screen acts as armour adding to AC and AR. But the problem is that Spinal mounts in T20 are just too danged powerful!

Example, take a Perisher (eveyone is using that ship as an example) It's Meson AC would be 10-4(size)+4(agility)+0(Cylinder)+6(Screen)=16.

Now a type S Meson as it is mounting has a +26 to hit right off the bat! Nevermind the average meson gunner crew skill, the commanders' leadership mod and if the sensor team got a lock on the enemy. 1d20 +26 is automatic vs. AC 16. Well, that meson screen didn't deflect the shot one iota, lets see how well is soaks the damage:

16d20 and subtract the 6 LOWEST dice from the spread. Your looking at 10d20 SI damage and its likely none of those dice are lower than a 10.

Then there is that critical hit chance of 55%! which will IGNORE the screen (its armour right?) and do 16d20x10 damage! Can we say bug zapper on steriods?

I have a few suggestions that I am playing around with.

First, drop that +5 critical range for spinals rule. Mesons of all kinds is 15-20 threat. That's scary enough. Crit damage multi should be dumbed down to x5. While your at it make Fusion guns x3 as well.

Second, double the effectiveness of Screens i.e. USP6 screen gives 12 Meson AR.

Third, why the hell are spinals so danged accurate? They are forward firing only and the gun team better know how to hit something in that limited arc. I am taking a leaf out of the GURPS book for this one. In GURPS they have something called accuracy (Acc). This is the absolute limit of how accurate the gun is. In GT you get that bonus only UP TO your skill level. Basicaly, you double your skill since its rare for someone to have a gunnery skill of 40.
Lets say the average skill rank for the crew is 12 (officers with about character level 7-9), they dont get the whole +26 to hit, they get a max of +12. Accuracy with a spinal is then dependant on the guy(s) shooting it.

This rule works with all weapons. Going the other way, that guy with the 12 Gunnery ranks shooting a USP 3 laser turret will be limited to the +3 given by that turret.

Lets try the example again with my house rules:
Type S Meson vs. a Perisher assume gun skill of 12. Perisher now has a Meson AC of 10-4+4+0+12(double screen factor) = 22.
12(ranks)+12(accuracy bonus max)= +24, still an automatic hit on the Perisher (MeAC=22), but not as evil as 26+12=38!
Asume a 15 or better was not rolled, damage done would be 16dice - 12 for 4d20(asume an average of 15 each for those high dice). Its going to sting, but not obliterate.
A critical is still going to be nasty, 16d20x5 averages to 800. Almost enough to render the ship inoperable, but not enough to vape it.

I like this, it seems to work for me. Use, abuse, or whatever this suggestion. As always YMMV.

 

[RainOfSteel]

My 2 cents.

I would say that while Meson Weapons ignore ship's armor on a crit, that they never ignore Meson Screens, on the theory that a Meson Screen's effects to incoming Meson packets are applied before damage is determined, and so doubled damage does not include anything subtracted due to the Meson Screens.

 

[Theophilus]

Well, we all agree on some things:

1. The Dreadnaughts published in TA 7 Fighting Ships are worthless.

2. The T20 rules favor small riders over big dreadnaughts

3. Sufficient fighters are just as deadly.

So ultimately, it comes down to economics. What can I get the most of for the least cost. And what gives me the most offensive punch?

I can buy six thousand bombers for the cost of one Perisher, If it took 500 bombers to kill a Perisher then I can kill Twelve Persihers for the cost of one T20 dreadnaught. Or if I kill the escorts as well then one full batron. Of course, just add some armour and this all disappears.

Now, if I build smaller "cruiser" or "monitor" size ships equiped with spinal mounts how many can I get. And, how lethal would bobmers be against these smaller ships?

(Of course I know if you add the cost of the carrier the figures will change, But lets just consider the defensive value of fighters)

 

[mike wightman]

Which brings us back to that age old High Guard debate, what is the point in building anything bigger than a heavy cruiser .
It appears that T20 has gone one better if meson bay armed escort class ships can so easily kill dreadnaughts then economically speaking Navies would be advised to build ships in the 2000-5000t range. Big enough for a bay or two and plenty of anti-fighter weapons.
Oh, and for what it's worth, I still say meson weapons in T20 are too accurate, thus taking away their only disadvantage in HG, and I agree with the doubling of the meson sceen AR and still counting them even on a critical hit.

 

[BetterThanLife]

The *5 on a Crit with D20 is still going to kill a Dred with one shot. (A factor 4 Meson Bay just misses under the current rules.) Though if you don't get to multiply the Rad damage by 10 it will take a couple more hits. If you leave the bulk of the rules alone, remove the +5 to Crit for spinal weapons and limit all crits to *2 you don't have to make any more changes. (At least to the damage rules.)

This tends to even things out in favor of the bigger ships, eliminates one shot kills on capital ships, (Though Spinal hits and especially Spinal Meson Crits, will still be very nasty.) Criting 30% of the time is definitely enough.

I still think the level at which things start to auto hit is way to high. Perhaps if you eliminated the Gunnery skill and used the BAB like the Personal combat then it would make hitting for average gunners less than automatic. (Though I am not sure even that will help, and it doesn't help with Spinal mounts at all.) Instead of using the Targets computer as a Target number you should use the difference between ECM and ECCM capability. (So if you have a less powerful sensor system the target's jamming will have some effect.) A roll between the Offensive Electronics officer and the Defensive Electronics Officer (Each modified by Sensor model number.) would give you the +/- modifer to the to hit number (And would affect all weapons, to include Meson.) It would put light fighters at a serious disadvantage and make the standard crew for an FH 3 instead of 2 so you can have a Sensor Op. You could use the Computer model number if there is no operator and still roll off. (T-Sensor+Computer+1d20 vs. T-Sensor+Computer+1D20 and if nobody is operating the system then T-Sensor skill is obviously 0.) The difference between the two rolls would be the targeting modifier either + or -. A Factor 9 weapon is still going to hit all too often but on the small end of the scale at least two fighters won't be screaming around missing each other all the time like in HG.

 

[BetterThanLife]

In HG against the higher number Meson Screens to really hit a target you needed the bigger Meson guns. To put the bigger Meson Guns on a ship with real armor, a High capability Meson Screen, a Jump 4 capability and High G maneuver you needed a Bigger ship, in the Drednaught Tonnage. A Cruiser was a Compromise someplace. The Drednaughts didn't compromise. The Battle Rider VS. Drednaught Debate, if you include the cost of the tender you don't gain a significant cost advantage between the two types of Batrons especially when you include the fact that an out numbered Battle Rider Batron can't run away. Though you tend to get two more spinal mounts at the same cost. You do get alot fewer secondary weapons. Missile Bays will still nickle and dime a Capital ship to death. Dreds had their place in HG, but for normal operations Cruisers were generally sufficient.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Which brings us back to that age old High Guard debate, what is the point in building anything bigger than a heavy cruiser .
It appears that T20 has gone one better if meson bay armed escort class ships can so easily kill dreadnaughts then economically speaking Navies would be advised to build ships in the 2000-5000t range. Big enough for a bay or two and plenty of anti-fighter weapons.
Oh, and for what it's worth, I still say meson weapons in T20 are too accurate, thus taking away their only disadvantage in HG, and I agree with the doubling of the meson sceen AR and still counting them even on a critical hit.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Cruisers without Armor are in the same boat. Cruisers with real Armor, (ie Atlantics or better) are in the same situation as Dreds with real armor when it comes to fighters. Once you get up to 10+ points of Armor fighters aren't very effective at all. Now you can put 1 100T Meson Bay or 2 50T Meson Bays on a 5000T Destroyer and be much more effective against Capital ships. (And they are still waaaaay to cheap for the damage they dish out.) (The one I designed with two 50T Meson Bays came in at MCr3311.) A Typical Dred costing 80-100 times that, a typical Cruiser or Battle Rider costing 10-20 times that. Under the current rules 20 of these will rip right through a CruRon or Batron with Battleriders (And probably lose 8 of them.) 30-40 will rip right through a Batron
(with Drednaughts.). Again with the loss of 8.

With my varaiation of the rules they will cause serious damage but will get wiped out probably with the Batron losing one and damage to a couple more. Crurons and Battlerider rons in the same boat with the smaller number of Destroyers. Wiping out the Destroyers and losing one or two with some damage to the remainder.

Armor having no bearing, Meson Screens having little bearing. A bit more effective than fighters using less pilots. (Historically the most difficult part of a craft to replace.)

I did equip these destroyers with Meson Screen factor 5 and Nuclear dampers factor 5 to keep other smaller craft honest. They also have 3 points of armor. 10 Laser batteries and 5 sand batteries. With 6g and Agility 6 and a Computer 9FIB, if you are using Grigots or Likuurka you have a major disadvantage in terms of sensor range. The Grigots will have a really difficult time closing to effective range of the Fusion guns. (You get 29 of them for each Destroyer.) The Likuurka only has a sensor range of short. (Effective range of 3 hexes?) Since the Destroyer is every bit as fast and more agile while you get 85 for each Destroyer, getting them to effective range before getting slaughtered is going to be tough.)

Originally posted by Theophilus:
Well, we all agree on some things:

1. The Dreadnaughts published in TA 7 Fighting Ships are worthless.

2. The T20 rules favor small riders over big dreadnaughts

3. Sufficient fighters are just as deadly.

So ultimately, it comes down to economics. What can I get the most of for the least cost. And what gives me the most offensive punch?

I can buy six thousand bombers for the cost of one Perisher, If it took 500 bombers to kill a Perisher then I can kill Twelve Persihers for the cost of one T20 dreadnaught. Or if I kill the escorts as well then one full batron. Of course, just add some armour and this all disappears.

Now, if I build smaller "cruiser" or "monitor" size ships equiped with spinal mounts how many can I get. And, how lethal would bobmers be against these smaller ships?

(Of course I know if you add the cost of the carrier the figures will change, But lets just consider the defensive value of fighters)

 

[BetterThanLife]

Cruisers without Armor are in the same boat. Cruisers with real Armor, (ie Atlantics or better) are in the same situation as Dreds with real armor when it comes to fighters. Once you get up to 10+ points of Armor fighters aren't very effective at all. Now you can put 1 100T Meson Bay or 2 50T Meson Bays on a 5000T Destroyer and be much more effective against Capital ships. (And they are still waaaaay to cheap for the damage they dish out.) (The one I designed with two 50T Meson Bays came in at MCr3311.) A Typical Dred costing 80-100 times that, a typical Cruiser or Battle Rider costing 10-20 times that. Under the current rules 20 of these will rip right through a CruRon or Batron with Battleriders (And probably lose 8 of them.) 30-40 will rip right through a Batron
(with Drednaughts.). Again with the loss of 8.

With my varaiation of the rules they will cause serious damage but will get wiped out probably with the Batron losing one and damage to a couple more. Crurons and Battlerider rons in the same boat with the smaller number of Destroyers. Wiping out the Destroyers and losing one or two with some damage to the remainder.

Armor having no bearing, Meson Screens having little bearing. A bit more effective than fighters using less pilots. (Historically the most difficult part of a craft to replace.)

I did equip these destroyers with Meson Screen factor 5 and Nuclear dampers factor 5 to keep other smaller craft honest. They also have 3 points of armor. 10 Laser batteries and 5 sand batteries. With 6g and Agility 6 and a Computer 9FIB, if you are using Grigots or Likuurka you have a major disadvantage in terms of sensor range. The Grigots will have a really difficult time closing to effective range of the Fusion guns. (You get 29 of them for each Destroyer.) The Likuurka only has a sensor range of short. (Effective range of 3 hexes?) Since the Destroyer is every bit as fast and more agile while you get 85 for each Destroyer, getting them to effective range before getting slaughtered is going to be tough.)

Originally posted by Theophilus:
Well, we all agree on some things:

1. The Dreadnaughts published in TA 7 Fighting Ships are worthless.

2. The T20 rules favor small riders over big dreadnaughts

3. Sufficient fighters are just as deadly.

So ultimately, it comes down to economics. What can I get the most of for the least cost. And what gives me the most offensive punch?

I can buy six thousand bombers for the cost of one Perisher, If it took 500 bombers to kill a Perisher then I can kill Twelve Persihers for the cost of one T20 dreadnaught. Or if I kill the escorts as well then one full batron. Of course, just add some armour and this all disappears.

Now, if I build smaller "cruiser" or "monitor" size ships equiped with spinal mounts how many can I get. And, how lethal would bobmers be against these smaller ships?

(Of course I know if you add the cost of the carrier the figures will change, But lets just consider the defensive value of fighters)

 

[mike wightman]

Does anyone design HG capital ships at High TLs with anything less than full agility?

A factor J meson has a 3.4% probability of hitting and mission killing any ship with agility 6, meson screen 9 and configuration 1.
A factor T meson has a 13.7% probability of the above.

Meson guns in HG mission kill ships, in T20 they vaporise them

, the big difference is in T20 they can not miss or fail to penetrate .

I'm beginning to think that T20 ships were only tested as an RPG environment and that the big ships have broken the rules .
New rules are required, IMHO, to fix this. You can always keep using High Guard combat, of course

 

[jfwking]

At the end of the day T20 and all other versions of the game are Role Playing games not tac/strat level wargames.

I agree that the ship combat rules are badly out of wack with the universe at large(IE broken), no one would ever build squadrons of DNs in a universe as big ship lethal as T20 yet in cannon these ships are built and used and fight heroic battles. There are cannon stories of ships taking heavy damage and withdrawing, others of ships holding in the battleline for hours before being destroyed (presumeably no one in these battles had meson weapons).

Sounds to me like we need the T20 version of lances or riders but including a fairly serious rules balance and rewrite.

A number of good ideas have been mentioned here, maybe we can collaborate on a LBB style "Fleet Battles" book or pdf.

 

[BetterThanLife]

It is a huge difference. a 3.4% chance of a mission kill vs a 55% chance of total vaporization.

The problems with the High Guard rules is that smaller ships, especially agile small ships are useless in combat against each other. And Fighters are totally useless in a fleet action. At least in T20 fighters can't just be ignored. (Though with good design, and planning you can sweep them out of the sky in a hurry it is time you aren't shooting at the other guys ships.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Does anyone design HG capital ships at High TLs with anything less than full agility?

A factor J meson has a 3.4% probability of hitting and mission killing any ship with agility 6, meson screen 9 and configuration 1.
A factor T meson has a 13.7% probability of the above.

Meson guns in HG mission kill ships, in T20 they vaporise them

, the big difference is in T20 they can not miss or fail to penetrate .

I'm beginning to think that T20 ships were only tested as an RPG environment and that the big ships have broken the rules .
New rules are required, IMHO, to fix this. You can always keep using High Guard combat, of course

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Does anyone design HG capital ships at High TLs with anything less than full agility?

I never have.

I'm beginning to think that T20 ships were only tested as an RPG environment and that the big ships have broken the rules .
New rules are required, IMHO, to fix this. You can always keep using High Guard combat, of course

I know that none of us talked about big ships much. And I was one of the "Lead Playtesters". (That basically means you contributed solutions, from my point of view... not just "this is broken", but "This is broken and here's a suggestion on how to fix it." As well as being highly active in the playtest forum. But that's a gues based upon who is listed...)

Big ships talk was mostly form an abstract point of view. we didn't really have much time working on it. (We didn't even have ship rules in the first several playtest drafts...).

Dr Skull talked more about big ships than I did, but....

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
Instead of doubling meson screens across the board, let anyone build double the screens onto any ship (this gets expensive and takes up space) yes you can make a ship invulnerable but so what battleships used to pound the crap out of each other for hours and basicaly unless you got a lucky hit (not 55% of the hits) or outnumbered the enemy by lots you both sailed home damaged.
Also it should only be the gunners skill plus a D20 to hit (how does the capitan on the bridge help the gunner hit (if you say he's aimming the ship then it should be his gunnery that you use), How does a target lock help you hit (if you dont have one how are you going to hit in the first place), Just because its a spinal mount dosn't give it a magnet for the enemy ship.
Also i think critical hits should only double the damage for any and all weapons (roll double damage then take of the AR like normal, yes you wont get massive damage but some will get through ( meson screen 30 AR meson gun 40 damage so that leaves 10dice of damage and they will be the big ones, and one internal hit. The same would work for PAW's you just get more damage, Armour cant be increased past 15).
This mod also means missiles and lasers can again hurt DN's and BB's, but getts ride of the silly rule where if you fire lots of single missiles or laser shots at any ship you will get crits and you can kill the ship with them.
IE a usp 9 missile or laser battery can hit and score an internal (just like 6" guns could hit and take out the fire control or bridge or other critical systems on a Battleship but couldn't hurt the hull or guns, they couldn't sink it but they could cripple it and make it go away).
Sorry if this sounds like rant (it isn't) just trying to find a method that seems straight forward and simple and lifelikeish.
Bye.