T20 Drednaughts? What is the point?

[BetterThanLife]

I haven't figured out why there is a gunnery skill. In all other combat it is your BAB and Dex that matter. Commander's leadership and/or tactics knowledge is very important as is the fleet commander's tactical knowledge. (Hence the need for a Flag Bridge on Capital ships.

If you eliminate the +5 crit for a spinal mount and make the maximum damage multiplier to *2 for any of the weapon systems, remove the Gunnery skill (using the BAB instead) and use the (offensive EW operator skill + Computer size) - (defensive EW operator Skill + computer size) perhaps with a roll each and the tactics bonuses that would make the space combat a little less lethal without rewriting the whole rule set.

Spinal mounts are still very nasty, they will still auto hit at the larger levels but it won't be at the same low level it is now. (Most Naval ships auto hit with all its weapons under the current rules against typical targets.) They will still shatter escorts (Which is a what they are supposed to do.) but they won't kill each other outright with one hit. This gives you a reason to have Dreds and Battle Cruisers without making the smallest ship you can mount a spinal mount on the best ships to build. It also means escorts and fighters still have a role. (THough it still isn't much of a role.) While a flotilla of destroyers with Meson Bays will still be extremely nasty, they should be, they at least won't auto kill Capital ships.

I am going to play with these rules in MTU and see how it works.

(Of course this will make Marine Gunners nasty. But traditionally they always have been.)

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
Bhoins, sorry i must be missing something.
If you dont have gunner skill you cant fire ship sized guns without a -6 penalty, using a weapon your not trained on, though most people would say the -6 is a joke you still hit automaticaly except on a role of one.
Bye.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Gunnery, in T20 is unlike any other combat. All the others is a Feat and use the BAB. I say use that instead. There is no Gauss Rifle Skill, Cutlass Skill, or Heavy Weapon Skill. Gunnery is the only combat skill in the list.

Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
Hello.
Bhoins, sorry i must be missing something.
If you dont have gunner skill you cant fire ship sized guns without a -6 penalty, using a weapon your not trained on, though most people would say the -6 is a joke you still hit automaticaly except on a role of one.
Bye.

 

[aramis]

Gunnery was never considered as a feat. Gunnery is not about being able to bring the weapon to bear in the required time, but being able to calculate and put the energy where the target will be when the energy gets there.

Hunter decided not to do weapon skills for a number of reasons... suffice it to say that several of us playtesters wanted them for traveller-ness, and several of us felt it would diminish T20's D20 crossover pool.

T20: The Big Compromise. Setting canon, but not rules canon!

 

[BetterThanLife]

I am not saying it is a Feat, just perhaps it should be. Making it consistent with the rest of combat and making it a little harder to generate a hit. With the skill it is much easier to run up big totals and get automatic hits. Not that it will help much but right now I am looking for a little bit more survivalability in Space combat.

In most games the characters would have no business mixing it up with Naval vessels. Certainly not Capital Vessels. Though dealing with a Destroyer should be at least survivalable. I did in my gaming history with Traveller roll up a character that became near and dear to my heart. The prior history with this character was definitely not typical of a Traveller adventurer. After a tour at the Naval Academy he proceeded into the Navy. When it was time to retire he got mandatory extension, twice. Spent the last ten years as a Grand Admiral and retired (including mustering out benefits) with a Soc of 15. The GM thought it would be fun for a different style of campaign and we ran a campaign around the Duke of Glisten. As time went on he did fade into the background as the guy pulling the strings but was a blast to play. Problem was that in this case we did end up playing with Capital Ships and Fleet Actions (during the Fifth Frontier War). Using Trillion Credit Squadron, (which gives out waaaay to much money for the fleet sizes that are hinted at in Supplement 9.) I built the Glisten Subsector Colonial Fleet. It wasn't something I recommend for regular gaming but was a fun change of pace. Using a Duke in regular adventures just never seemed right. "Mi Lord, would thou lend me thine frag grenade?" (And yes we did do a bit of that.

But it, and TCS, did focus at least part of my attention on fleet actions and major vessels.

Right now I am just tyring to find a good fix for an obvious problem with Starship Combat.

I would have loved to have played this character and the fleet I built to deal with the Ihaeti fleets in MT.

They had better be bringing more than what was in the Rebellion Sourcebook.

Originally posted by Aramis:
Gunnery was never considered as a feat. Gunnery is not about being able to bring the weapon to bear in the required time, but being able to calculate and put the energy where the target will be when the energy gets there.

Hunter decided not to do weapon skills for a number of reasons... suffice it to say that several of us playtesters wanted them for traveller-ness, and several of us felt it would diminish T20's D20 crossover pool.

T20: The Big Compromise. Setting canon, but not rules canon!

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I am not saying it is a Feat, just perhaps it should be. Making it consistent with the rest of combat and making it a little harder to generate a hit. With the skill it is much easier to run up big totals and get automatic hits. Not that it will help much but right now I am looking for a little bit more survivalability in Space combat.

Why was it not considered? Gunnery being based of BAB was ruled out right off to avoidarmy and marines being the best ships gunners, while no naval gunner could match up; merchant and scout gunners would be unable to fight at all.

Gunnery not being a feat? since BAB baseline is for melee and ranged combat at personal scales, and doesn't fit the setting, having a feat required to use guns needs either a SCB for every class, or its just a skill. Other D20 games said it was a skill, and that was enough.

Not that, in d20, everything isn't level limited anyway... but then again, under CT, basic cg, was gunnery-3, and a LT. Gunnery 4 was possible under Bk5, IIRC. Under MT, courtesy of bonus skills, still using basic CG, the 1st term limit goes to 7! (Term, Pos, Prom, SplDty, 3 bonus skills for making Pos, Prom and SplDty by 4 each.)Again, he's an LT. Best non-officer is Gunnery 3...

Now, as for the use of those 20K crews on thos .5 MTd Monstorsities: a batron of 12 showing up could effectively swamp most ports if they gave 50% "Creative mayhem Liberty".... Sure the cash looks good... until the locals realize that the supplies are GONE. Yet another form of pnishment the navy inflicts upon semi-uncoperative worlds.

 

[BetterThanLife]

OK so we keep the Gunnery skill. Still too many auto hits. The funny thing is the hardest thing to hit is a FH with agility 6 and 15 points of armor. Though a Cruiser with the same specs isn't that much easier to hit. And they are still hit all to often. With an average gunner having +11 and a factor 9 battery, even with no other modifiers is still going to hit AC30 better than half the time. Now the FH is +1 AC size, +6 AC Agility and +15 AC AR. 10+1+6+15=32
If you could not put a bridge on a FL under 10T and still fit 15T armor and agility 6 that would be AC33. Add the other modifiers allowed and a Factor 9 is usually an auto hit. I think that is a bit much. Granted a Starship is supposed to be bigger than the "Broad Side of a Barn" but still....

 

[aramis]

No such thing as an "Auto Hit" under T20... a nat 1 still misses and a nat 20 still hits, unless using optional rules.

That's still a 5% miss rate.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
Kill the +5 for spinal mounts to hit.
All crits only do *2.
Roll damage normaly for crits and still remove the AR and ignore radiation damage if ship has a working dampener.
AS an aside.
Point defence should only work inside the first range band of a weapon otherwise your just using the weapon as normal.
Yes BPLM can fire outside short range and do 2 less damage and are 2 harder to hit with, that would be the same as the laser turrets firing at them (and everyone lowers the point defence factor by 2 for range and damage dont you).
Point defence should fire before the incoming's hit not after they hit, Think terminal guidance.
The missile is controlled by the gunner on the ship, he targets 500Km to one side your computer says there going to miss no point defence fire, the missiles get to 20000km and the gunner sets them for terminal guidance and signs of, the missiles turn on there sensors and lock up and fire you have bugger all time to kill them before they fire as opposed to all that time while they closed, then only surviving missiles get to shoot you.
Bye.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Spinals don't get +5 to hit but they crit 5 better. I have been saying that no weapon should have more than *2 on a crit. I think that if you get the hit in the radiation damage will still affect teh ship. And on a Crit not be reduced by dampners. Though reduce the whole nuke by armor and dampners. (Last I checked that is all Dampners affect anyway.) In most cases all the missiles hit so it doesn't matter which ones you shoot down.

Wait until they get close then shoot them down.

But I like the idea. Not sure how accurate it would be, your computer will tell you which missiles are in no position to hit you and should be able to predictthat based on vectors, firing positions and amount of fuel burned until they get to terminal guidance range.

Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
Hello.
Kill the +5 for spinal mounts to hit.
All crits only do *2.
Roll damage normaly for crits and still remove the AR and ignore radiation damage if ship has a working dampener.
AS an aside.
Point defence should only work inside the first range band of a weapon otherwise your just using the weapon as normal.
Yes BPLM can fire outside short range and do 2 less damage and are 2 harder to hit with, that would be the same as the laser turrets firing at them (and everyone lowers the point defence factor by 2 for range and damage dont you).
Point defence should fire before the incoming's hit not after they hit, Think terminal guidance.
The missile is controlled by the gunner on the ship, he targets 500Km to one side your computer says there going to miss no point defence fire, the missiles get to 20000km and the gunner sets them for terminal guidance and signs of, the missiles turn on there sensors and lock up and fire you have bugger all time to kill them before they fire as opposed to all that time while they closed, then only surviving missiles get to shoot you.
Bye.

 

[Dom]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Using Trillion Credit Squadron, (which gives out waaaay to much money for the fleet sizes that are hinted at in Supplement 9.) I built the Glisten Subsector Colonial Fleet.

Marc Miller has since stated (on TML IIRC) that the TCS rules shouldn't be taken as a model for the economics for the Imperium etc. Rather, it is a system for campaigns for battles between Pocket Empires.

Which is why we put a (simplified) budget driven version into PP:F but that's another story...

 

[Richard Saunders]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
[QB] Spinals don't get +5 to hit but they crit 5 better. I have been saying that no weapon should have more than *2 on a crit. I think that if you get the hit in the radiation damage will still affect teh ship. And on a Crit not be reduced by dampners. Though reduce the whole nuke by armor and dampners. (Last I checked that is all Dampners affect anyway.) In most cases all the missiles hit so it doesn't matter which ones you shoot down.

Wait until they get close then shoot them down.

But I like the idea. Not sure how accurate it would be, your computer will tell you which missiles are in no position to hit you and should be able to predictthat based on vectors, firing positions and amount of fuel burned until they get to terminal guidance range.
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Hello.
Sorry the add to crit was what i ment (it's already 15 why do you need 10).
For the rad damage i meant the meson gun's rad damage not nuc missiles.
Yes rad dampeners only effect radiation damage.
Yes it does matter wich missiles you shoot down all your realy trying to do is reduce the usp down to a point where the impact isn't going to get through your armour and hurt.
If your computer can tell you the missile is going to miss dont you think the gunner is going to know that (with BPLM anywhere within 45000Km will count as a hit until it fires its laser then its to late).
Basicaly there would be a 90000Km bubble around any missile pack that any ship within (with low armour) must shoot at to lower the usp below there armour rating, and thats only for the first range band, and not allowing for crits (any crit can mission kill a ship).
Bye.

 

[BetterThanLife]

So you would fire a mix of missiles at me? Interesting. It doesn't really matter. You have to assume that all the missiles you don't shoot down are going to hit. (In general all weapons in space combat, especially when dealing with bigger ships, hit on a 2.)

I was under the impression that shooting down missiles was an all or nothing affair. Either you shot down the incoming battery of missiles or you missed them. (In most cases you miss on a 1.) Since Missiles don't have computers and if you are in a Capital ship you have sensor operators and Computer operators that are dedicated to defense. Even a factor 4 Laser Battery takes out a factor 9 missile on a 2. the only way to get damage against a ship is to hit it with more missiles than it has point defense batteries. So a ship with more than 10 points of armor is going to require fighters to group up or use Laser Heads to hurt you. Reducing the number of point defense shots you need to stop the incoming missiles. Missiles, unless you have alot of them are not very effective. Now against smaller ships it is a different story. They don't have the dedicated defense crew or the defense weapons to stop incoming weapons. But if you slap 13-15 points of armor on a fighter then it is still going to take lots of missiles to do any damage. Of course against smaller ships Nukes work well.

The question I run into on missile defense is who gets to fire. In the real world that is what escorts are for. One would think that they would also be available to take down missiles in Traveller too. The rules don't specify, though, at what range anti missile fire takes place. And Crossing targets are much harder to engage. In MYTU on the Strategic scale I am going to let everyone in the hex fire on missiles aimed at the hex. On the Tactical scale I am thinking everyone between the target and the missiles if the path of the missile passes within 2 hexes. Just a thought.

By the way every weapon gets +5 to hit on the strategic scale or +5 dice damage. But I didn't think that was what you were talking about. (+5 to hit? What on earth for, in most cases you only need a 2 to hit anyway.

Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
Hello.
Sorry the add to crit was what i ment (it's already 15 why do you need 10).
For the rad damage i meant the meson gun's rad damage not nuc missiles.
Yes rad dampeners only effect radiation damage.
Yes it does matter wich missiles you shoot down all your realy trying to do is reduce the usp down to a point where the impact isn't going to get through your armour and hurt.
If your computer can tell you the missile is going to miss dont you think the gunner is going to know that (with BPLM anywhere within 45000Km will count as a hit until it fires its laser then its to late).
Basicaly there would be a 90000Km bubble around any missile pack that any ship within (with low armour) must shoot at to lower the usp below there armour rating, and thats only for the first range band, and not allowing for crits (any crit can mission kill a ship).
Bye.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello Bhoins.

Originally posted by Bhoins:
[QB] So you would fire a mix of missiles at me? Interesting. It doesn't really matter. You have to assume that all the missiles you don't shoot down are going to hit. (In general all weapons in space combat, especially when dealing with bigger ships, hit on a 2.)
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Sorry NO just BPLM, yes targeting is a joke isn't it.
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I was under the impression that shooting down missiles was an all or nothing affair. Either you shot down the incoming battery of missiles or you missed them. (In most cases you miss on a 1.) Since Missiles don't have computers and if you are in a Capital ship you have sensor operators and Computer operators that are dedicated to defense. Even a factor 4 Laser Battery takes out a factor 9 missile on a 2. the only way to get damage against a ship is to hit it with more missiles than it has point defense batteries. So a ship with more than 10 points of armor is going to require fighters to group up or use Laser Heads to hurt you. Reducing the number of point defense shots you need to stop the incoming missiles. Missiles, unless you have alot of them are not very effective. Now against smaller ships it is a different story. They don't have the dedicated defense crew or the defense weapons to stop incoming weapons. But if you slap 13-15 points of armor on a fighter then it is still going to take lots of missiles to do any damage. Of course against smaller ships Nukes work well.
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Yes sorry again (just reread the point defence rules) any shot that hits kills the whole swarm, So what you do is you fire only one turret at the swarm and you miss on a 12, the best the missiles can get is 24 defence V your comp min6 prob 8,laser usp2, gunner skill rookie4 plus 1D20, worst case 45% kill and if you miss you get to fire again and again untill you hit all on your initiative.
This cost him 10turrets for 30 missiles and it cost you 1 turret per shot, but i would target two turrets on each just to be safe.
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The question I run into on missile defense is who gets to fire. In the real world that is what escorts are for. One would think that they would also be available to take down missiles in Traveller too. The rules don't specify, though, at what range anti missile fire takes place. And Crossing targets are much harder to engage. In MYTU on the Strategic scale I am going to let everyone in the hex fire on missiles aimed at the hex. On the Tactical scale I am thinking everyone between the target and the missiles if the path of the missile passes within 2 hexes. Just a thought.
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I have assummed that if they can sense the missiles they can shoot at them, how do you tell if they are targeted at you or not. Just because they where launched at the dreadnought dosn't mean they can only hit it (they are being controled by a gunner and if a nice soft DD gets in the road and dosn't shoot them he gets all he deserves. Although he may get a hero of the soviet union medal for ramming the missiles to save the DN.

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By the way every weapon gets +5 to hit on the strategic scale or +5 dice damage. But I didn't think that was what you were talking about. (+5 to hit? What on earth for, in most cases you only need a 2 to hit anyway.

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Yes but i always thought those combat rules where stupid.
Lets face it if you dont detect the enemy your BROWN BREAD.
If you do detect them then the fleet with the fastest speed will fix the range, all weapons fire will be at that range, only damage will change it until one side or the other breaks of even fighters are stuck at the same range unless you free them up then its initiative for each round with the highest init geting to fix the range. ie if every ship has the same speed then the side with the highest init sets the range, if its slower than fighters and one side launches fighters then the fighters will have to be a seperate group with a seperate range band set for them otherwise they have to stay with the slower ships.
That seams hard to follow try this.
3 groups 1=fighters, 2=attacker, 3=defender.
if fighters are the fastest they set rangeband for themselves, if the attacker is the next fastest he sets range band only for group 3 (he is stuck at the range band for the fighters that they set), the defender is stuck and probably screwed as well. If 2 or all 3 groups are the same speed then the highest init sets the range for his group and so on down (the init i'm talking about would be for the admiral of each fleet or the capitan of a single ship.
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I still say single turret missile launches are the way to go USP2 lots of point defence targets and more roles for crits.
Bye.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Lionel,
That changes if you use the advanced combat. Then you get to spread out your force and have some ships closer and others farther. Of course the other guy is trying to set up the same optimal ranges so it gets messy. That is the way combat is supposed to be. The problem with all those factor 2 and 3 missile launchers if you actually armor your ships the missiles are only worth a damn if you get a Crit. If you split up your Lasers into 1 turret batteries you get to kill more incoming missiles but the crew requirements go through the roof. In most cases I would recommend something in between. And don't forget the utility of multiple sandcaster batteries. When your missiles arrive I don't alter my vector, fire all my sand and force you to actually miss with the missiles. (10 Factor 9 Sand batteries = +90 to hit!) Generating a 30 under these rules is a joke but a 100+? I don't care what you have for skill it isn't going to happen.

The other problem with your idea of the Missile turrets in individual batteries is the manpower requirements. Each oneof those guys requires 2 tons of space. (If you are talking about fighters then quite a bit more space.) The other problem with missiles is that they don't have a high crit percentage. HE missiles crit 15% of the time. BPLM only crit 10% of the time and they both only have a x1 multiple. Nukes crit 20% of the time, but against a real ship have a harder time hitting, Against a Nuke a Capital ship can actually get it's armor class up to 39, with a low factor missile you actually need to roll to get a hit. So your crit percentage actually can be as low as 10% but at least you get a x2 and Radiation damage. Since your crits are such a low percentage and don't have a real damage multiplier you need bigger missile factors against armored targets to make your salvos worthwhile. Then to swamp your target you need an awful lot of launchers. But at least with Factor 9 missiles you can cause damage without crits against armor.

The real joker in the deck under T20 appears to be the 100T Meson Bay. Crits 30% of the time and on a Crit kills Drednaughts. I have put one on a 5000T Destroyer and 2 on a 3000T Monitor. There is no effective defense except to carry Meson Spinal mounts with a longer range and kill them first. I haven't done it yet but a cruiser in the 75KTon range could mount a whole bunch of those. In theory you could take out an entire Batron with one Cruiser in one round. (If you mounted 32 of them.) Build a Cru-Ron like that!!! OUCH!!!
Bruce

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello Bhoins (Sorry about spelling your name wrong in the other post to lazy to go back and change it).

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Lionel,
That changes if you use the advanced combat. Then you get to spread out your force and have some ships closer and others farther. Of course the other guy is trying to set up the same optimal ranges so it gets messy. That is the way combat is supposed to be.
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Yes but if the enemy is smart he overkills the ship thats on its own out in front (with no support).
As an aside, I love playing HARPOON the computer always places one ship out on its own and all you do is pick it of and move in to the next outermost ship and pick it of until you get to the core ship now without excorts or cover. Yes you suffer loses but the are less than the enemy (damaging ships is wastful, killing ships is good).
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The problem with all those factor 2 and 3 missile launchers if you actually armor your ships the missiles are only worth a damn if you get a Crit. If you split up your Lasers into 1 turret batteries you get to kill more incoming missiles but the crew requirements go through the roof. In most cases I would recommend something in between. And don't forget the utility of multiple sandcaster batteries. When your missiles arrive I don't alter my vector, fire all my sand and force you to actually miss with the missiles. (10 Factor 9 Sand batteries = +90 to hit!) Generating a 30 under these rules is a joke but a 100+? I don't care what you have for skill it isn't going to happen.
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Yes its amazing how a cloud of sand can expand to cover the entire outside of a ship, But how do you get a USP higher than 9.
Also any missile salvo against an armoured ship is only going to hurt with a crit anyway.
You only need computer killed or fuel tank ruptured or any other crit to hurt a ship.
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The other problem with your idea of the Missile turrets in individual batteries is the manpower requirements. Each oneof those guys requires 2 tons of space. (If you are talking about fighters then quite a bit more space.) The other problem with missiles is that they don't have a high crit percentage. HE missiles crit 15% of the time. BPLM only crit 10% of the time and they both only have a x1 multiple. Nukes crit 20% of the time, but against a real ship have a harder time hitting, Against a Nuke a Capital ship can actually get it's armor class up to 39, with a low factor missile you actually need to roll to get a hit. So your crit percentage actually can be as low as 10% but at least you get a x2 and Radiation damage. Since your crits are such a low percentage and don't have a real damage multiplier you need bigger missile factors against armored targets to make your salvos worthwhile. Then to swamp your target you need an awful lot of launchers. But at least with Factor 9 missiles you can cause damage without crits against armor.
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The missile factor dosn't make a cracker of difference to the damage, your not going to get through the armour without a crit so the more roles you get the more chances of a crit you get.
I use Falkyns lovely spreedsheet and i dont have a great deal of trouble fitting the crew in , Anything over 40000tons i have to add fighters or shuttles to fill the space (this isn't jump 6 ships).
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The real joker in the deck under T20 appears to be the 100T Meson Bay. Crits 30% of the time and on a Crit kills Drednaughts. I have put one on a 5000T Destroyer and 2 on a 3000T Monitor. There is no effective defense except to carry Meson Spinal mounts with a longer range and kill them first. I haven't done it yet but a cruiser in the 75KTon range could mount a whole bunch of those. In theory you could take out an entire Batron with one Cruiser in one round. (If you mounted 32 of them.) Build a Cru-Ron like that!!! OUCH!!!
Bruce

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Yes i think they went overboard on meson guns (dont have my rule book hear but cant you fit one on a 1000ton hull (10 turrets to a bay)???).
If so build DD's and kill batrons (yes you will loose DD's closing but when you shoot.
Basicaly there is no defence against meson guns, meson screens dont help it's still auto hit and an internal without the crit and with a crit 50% of the time your dead anyway.
Even with a PAWs when it hits it's still internal, just less damage on a crit you may survive to go to prison camp.
Bye, if you tell me how to get a doc from Falkyns spreedsheet i will post my scout anf courier.

 

[BetterThanLife]

A Factor 9 Missile Bay with Laser heads against an armor 15 ship will do, on average 6-7 points of damage and an internal hit. Whereas a factor 3 missile (I always assume that my opponents are using TL13+ ships.

can't do more than 3 points and on average will do none. A Crit with a Factor 3 Laserhead, will do, on average, 35.5 points on a crit plus an internal hit. A Crit with a Factor 9 laser head will do 68.75 plus an internal. At least with the higher factor missiles you are getting your internals without Crits. Even if you roll a 1 on the Laser Head roll with a factor 9 missile salvo you still do 2-4 points of damage and an internal hit. (Assuming your highest die out of 10 is at least an 8 and even on a 7 you get your 1 point of SI and an internal.) When you are rolling less dice you are less likely to roll the higher numbers and you are less likely to even score damage. With a factor 2 missile salvo you get a maximum of 8 dice. -7 dice for armor and subtract 8 points fromthe highest die. You have to roll a 6 for laser hits and then one of those dice has to come up with an 8+ to even score damage. With the higher factor missiles virtually every shot that gets through scores damage. Against lighter armored ships, like mostofthe ships in TA7, the lower factor missiles are nasty, because every one that gets through are going to score damage and internal hits. But against heavily armored ships you need Laser Heads and bigger batteries. (And TL13 fighters max out at UPC 7 if using the squadron rule and are unlikely to have enough numbers to get through heavily armored ships. Or even get through the point defenses of a Cruiser.) The biggest advantage of fighters against lightly armored ships is it is going to take a while to kill all of them. (Especially if they are seriously armored.) You are restricted to Nuke Missiles at factor 9, Heavy PA Bays, (Not very effective.) and Meson guns. (And if your spinal is Meson you are limited to one killed a turn or using it on the Carrier.After all if you kill the Carrier and then break off the fighters all die. (Provided it isn't their system or you kill any bases they have as well.) Fighters with cabins are a different matter if the system is friendly and has a fuel source. Then you are stuck with having to kill all of them.

As for Sand getting above 9? If the ship isn't maneuvering Sand adds vs all attacks and effects of sand are cumlative. If you use 10 factor 9 Sandcasters in the point defense role you add 90 to your AC. (Vs. Missiles, Lasers, Plasma or Fusion.) If you simply shoot down all but, say, 3 missiles coming in then you can add 36 to your AC for each incoming missile and maneuver normally. (And still have one Sancaster battery in reserve.)

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello Bhoins.
So we are agreed MISSILES are a waist of time against anything with armour.
Erratic maneuvering is a waste of time, it's not going to make any weapons miss so why waste the space.
Fighters are a joke. By the way how do you get a 100ton or even a 50ton bay on a fighter i though you needed at least a 1000ton ship to get a bay.
Yes three hard points on a fighter i can live with but a missile turret i find hard to swallow (2 single use missiles in tubes under the wings yes), Ar- you would need 2 crew for a missile armed fighter and anything over 100tons would be a SDB.
Meson guns are the only weapon that will kill a warship quickly, PAWs will to it just takes a lot longer (my definition of a real warship is big gun, reasonable armour and fast, Yes this sounds like line of battle ships but that is what they are the rest are escorts or rear eschelon ships (do supply ships count as warships even though they are in the navy (probably) but would you want to take one into battle.
Even with unarmoured ships you are still going to need a 3:1 missile v point defence advantage to win, you would be better of with lasers.
Bye.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I never tried to put a bay on a fighter. Just thought Destroyers were a better choice for your Cr. Not three hardpoints on a fighter. It is only allowed one but it can have a triple turret. (Or equivalent if you want to make it look different.)

Missiles are only a waist of time and lots of money against something big with armor. Against Fighters? Missiles are just fine. Even if they are armored, as long as your turrets aren't one battery per turret. If you are at least factor 6 you can score internal damage against a AR 15, provided you use Nukes. Factor 9 works better, but 5-6 is enough. Fighters don't get to use Point defense. (Or at least can't attack, and shoot down missiles at the same time.)

Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
Hello Bhoins.
So we are agreed MISSILES are a waist of time against anything with armour.
Erratic maneuvering is a waste of time, it's not going to make any weapons miss so why waste the space.
Fighters are a joke. By the way how do you get a 100ton or even a 50ton bay on a fighter i though you needed at least a 1000ton ship to get a bay.
Yes three hard points on a fighter i can live with but a missile turret i find hard to swallow (2 single use missiles in tubes under the wings yes), Ar- you would need 2 crew for a missile armed fighter and anything over 100tons would be a SDB.
Meson guns are the only weapon that will kill a warship quickly, PAWs will to it just takes a lot longer (my definition of a real warship is big gun, reasonable armour and fast, Yes this sounds like line of battle ships but that is what they are the rest are escorts or rear eschelon ships (do supply ships count as warships even though they are in the navy (probably) but would you want to take one into battle.
Even with unarmoured ships you are still going to need a 3:1 missile v point defence advantage to win, you would be better of with lasers.
Bye.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
[qb] I never tried to put a bay on a fighter. Just thought Destroyers were a better choice for your Cr. Not three hardpoints on a fighter. It is only allowed one but it can have a triple turret. (Or equivalent if you want to make it look different.)
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Sorry hardpoint is probably a bad name what i ment was mounting points, it's just that people keep mentioning bay armed fighters (meson or fusion).
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Missiles are only a waist of time and lots of money against something big with armor. Against Fighters? Missiles are just fine. Even if they are armored, as long as your turrets aren't one battery per turret. If you are at least factor 6 you can score internal damage against a AR 15, provided you use Nukes. Factor 9 works better, but 5-6 is enough. Fighters don't get to use Point defense. (Or at least can't attack, and shoot down missiles at the same time.)
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Why cant fighters use point defence, if its a two man fighter (and arn't all missile armed fighters two man crews and by extension all fighters) then the gunner controls the missiles and the pilot controls the laser for point defence (he does have to aim the fighter to hit).

How does one man in one fighter control all the missiles launched by multipul fighters spreed across 1000's of Kilometers of space, i can see how one gunner on a single ship could control all the missiles launched by the ship in one salvo (their anteni are pointing at the ship afterall, and they could be programed to axcept only signals from that transmitter, but how do the missiles lock on to a fighter who's trying not to attract attention.
Just a question.
Bye.