T5 Personal Combat System Review, Opinion, and Problems

[BytePro]

Just a guess, but maybe it considers movement through the view of a combat situation? Where the character is moving slower than he could if he were just strolling out on the sidewalk.

Yep - my guess too as I was trying to convey in the rest of that post. Speed is abstract - therefore it accommodates variety of circumstances/scenarios/situations...

We're talking round AND minutes.

You were talking round AND minutes AND distance.

Each abstraction is given a singe ballpark number, but DOING MATH based on the ballpark numbers will not yield a SINGLE ballpark number.

Range Bands are also used for altitude and depth.

Not the type of 'multidimensional ranges' I was talking about (but good to know!).

Figuring the results of abstraction of time and distance means an answer would need to be given as [range of seconds, range of distance] - i.e. mathematical dimensions. The rate of motion (taking distance and dividing by time) would then be a matrix of possible outcomes - not a single figure. Averaging the results of the matrix of outcomes doesn't provide useful information because it ignores the 'approximations' - which have now become exponential in nature... :file_19:

So, when you posted -

A character at Very Long Range, moving to Medium Range (a move from Range Band 5 to Range Band 3) would take about 7 minutes at Speed-2. First, it would take 4 minutes to reach Long Range, then it would take another 3 minutes to reach Medium Range.

You removed part of the abstraction! The total combat lasted about 7 minutes - that does not mean the first 4 rounds took about 4 minutes!

On the surface there's nothing overtly technically wrong with what you wrote, however, by way of explanation, it destroys the abstraction. It is only a valid statement that in a particular combat lasting only 7 rounds this is the range difference and the total combat time for those rounds was about 7 minutes. It is misleading to state that the time for movement is therefore 'about 7 minutes' or broken up into 4 and 3 minutes. Best you could do was state at most about 7 minutes, but then only if the total combat lasted exactly 7 rounds, if it lasted 8 or more, even this assertion is also invalid.

Put another way - with 7 rounds to cover 2 range bands, the abstraction implies running beginning sometime in round 1 and ending some time in round 7. If the round times are: 3 minutes first; 2 minutes total for the 2nd-6th; and, 2 minutes in the last, then the time to cover the 2 bands was somewhere over 2 minutes and less than 7 minutes. There are lots and lots of combinations that could be used resulting in different minutes to cover the range difference - the only thing that is really true is that all still took 7 rounds for those range bands. There is not enough information in the abstraction to equate to the actual time of running to cover the abstract distance.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here - quite the contrary - you are trying to explain and interpret things for others and I'm trying to help. Abstraction can be a very tricky thing, especially when mixing multiple abstract elements not to mention its aspects are often subjective in nature. Nailing down abstraction with concrete, real world figures generally breaks the whole concept - yet is a very natural thing to want to do...

The abstract rounds don't really bother me at all. How often does exact time of combat really matter in a combat encounter anyway.

Yeah, only relative times matter - and even then its all just SWAG.

Its starting to sound like T5 abstraction are actually a bit like my own - I use abstract distances, speeds and timing. The only time I give exact numbers is for color and drama (5 second countdown; 'scope reads 2,371.42 meters'). The difference is in implementation - I don't have a relatively easy system that anyone could just pick up and use.

Re: your example of the character running across the street with time for his opponents and environment (cars) to interfere - if something significant is going to happen then I give the Player the chance to determine the outcome.

I.e. I call for a roll - factoring in the visibility (night/dense smog), distance, road traffic (density; speed; automation), opponent's motivations (shoot to kill, avoid witnesses/law, etc.) and characteristics, along with appropriate DMs.

Reading further, I do think we can stretch the rules to cover multiple targets and not necessarily have to call the multi-target tweak a House Rule.

Adding dice for added difficulty is certainly in the spirit of the rules.

While related with skill+attribute, I gather the Task Mechanic and the Combat Mechanic are still treated as two separate things with otherwise different basis and most mods?

 

[Reban]

Range Bands are also used for altitude and depth.


The Speed system can be used with any locomotion. You just change the Speed rating. A Vehicle may use Speed-3 where as a human would be at Speed-1.

I probably wasn't clear. Since the majority of Personnel Combat will take place in the 1km Individual hex with the abstract round I don't think you need to be overly concerned about the terrain type affecting movement unless its a particular feature of the combat, like really boggy marsh, really dense jungle, underwater or something else exceptional. If you start crossing larger distances such as 10km Local Hexes and 100km Terrain Hexes then you should start to think about how terrain affects your speed.

The Vehicle movement charts on p291 have a column for "People".

Vehicle Movement works as follows:

Terrain types are classed in three ways for each type of vehicle (cars trucks, grav, flappers, rotor etc. and people). Each class has an associated difficulty for a particular terrain type.

The classes and difficulties are:

Allowed Easy 1D or Average 2D depending on type.
Prohibited May not enter.
Disallowed Staggering 5D

Reducing Speed by -1 drops the difficulty one level. Increasing Speed +1 raises difficulty one level. These are tested against the drivers Dexterity.


So for people, wetland is Allowed (and I have to make a guess here) its probably an Average 2D task to move across at Speed 1 (walking ~ 5kph) or a Difficult 3D task at Speed 2 (Run ~ 10kph).

This is good to know for moving across tens of kilometers on a journey but not so necessary when moving between range bands in combat.

 

[BytePro]

... unless its a particular feature of the combat, like really boggy marsh, really dense jungle, underwater or something else exceptional.

This.

Absolute speeds are not a LOD I concern myself with during play as everything moves at speed of story in my games - but relative 'speeds' do most definitely factor in. Notably things that inhibit or restrict motion or increase peril. Running on pebbles down a slope .. dodging landscaping obstacles in a park .. one side fighting in mud.

The terrain often has an impact not so much intrinsically, but when used creatively (by PCs and NPCs :devil. Examples from real games: Breaking water lines over a tiled surface .. opening water main in a park (creating mud) .. activating fire suppression foam .. dumping lubricant on the decking .. dumping micro-bearings on a pedway .. igniting crops .. opponents skilled in vine hopping in jungles ...



I'm interested in the vehicle movement/combat - especially with regard to chase scenes.

 

[Supplement Four]

The movement rule for the larger Range Bands is actually pretty cool.

Range Band 3 = Medium Range. 150 m.

Range Band 4 = Long Range. 500 m.

Range Band 5 = Very Long Range. 1000 m.




Movement among these bands requires* Speed-2 (running) and a number or rounds equal to the Range Band number.

Thus, if at Medium Range, moving to Long Range, the character would have to run for 4 minutes, or there abouts.

A character at Very Long Range, moving to Medium Range (a move from Range Band 5 to Range Band 3) would take about 7 minutes at Speed-2. First, it would take 4 minutes to reach Long Range, then it would take another 3 minutes to reach Medium Range.



*The rule seems to require Speed-2, but I don't see any reason why a character moving at Speed-1 couldn't move the same distance in twice the time. Just double the number or rounds needed.

Disregard the above. Looking at the rule above, I realize that I did not report it correctly.

 

[Reban]

As I read it, to run to band 3 will take three rounds and in that third round you can move to band 4. You can't move to band 2 until the next round.

To run to band 4 will take four rounds and in the fourth round you can move to band 5 or 3.

To run to band 5 takes five rounds and in the fifth round you can move back to band 4 but I'm not sure that you can move to band 6 or at least if you do you should be deemed to have left personal combat.

Moving down the bands should go as follows: From Band 5 to Band 3 will take 3 rounds (you spend rounds equal to the destination band) and you can move to band 4 in the third round. You can't move to band 2 until the next round.


[EDIT] corrected moving from band 3 to 2. Added an example of moving down the bands.

 

[Reban]

If I have the above explanation right it gives rise to some weird but not unbelievable time and space issues.

Running from Band 3 (150m) to Band 4 (500m) will take 4 Rounds or stated in another way it takes 4 minutes to run about 350m.

but

Running from Band 4 (500m) to Band 3 (150m) will take 3 Rounds or stated in another way it takes 3 minutes to run about 350m.



Okay so its no big deal in the overall scheme of things, but its interesting that sodiers will always be faster running towards the enemy

 

[BytePro]

Disregard the above. Looking at the rule above, I realize that I did not report it correctly.

No prob - thanks for doing it anyway!

Mistakes are important to understanding and, without examples from the source, this stuff is naturally so intertwined most of it is probably still clear as mud even after several reads...

As I read it, to run to band 3 will take three rounds and in that third round you can move to band 4. You can't move to band 2 until the next round.

To run to band 4 will take four rounds and in the fourth round you can move to band 5 or 3.

Uh ... huh?

Yeah, I read that 3 times and still ain't got it!

 

[Reban]

Darn I thought I was being clear.

The basic rule for Bands 3-4-5 is: you spend rounds equal to the destination band.

So say you want to run to Band 4. Your destination is Band 4 which equals 4 rounds spent to get there. It doesn't matter if you are starting from Band 3 or 5 it will always take 4 Rounds to get to Band 4.

Once you arrive there, in the final 4th round, you are allowed move to one of the adjacent bands.

Example: I'm in Band 5. I want to go to Band 4. I'll take 4 rounds to get there. I arrive in Band 4 in the 4th round and in that round I can move to Band 3 if I choose to or stay in Band 4.


I bet I just confused you further, because I've just confused me

 

[BytePro]

Speaking of re-reading...

Making an attack in this game is as simple as rolling a task. Target range gives you the difficulty: The number of dice you throw is equal to the Range Band number of your target.

Is that 2D plus Range Band difference?

 

[BytePro]

Darn I thought I was being clear. ...

I bet I just confused you further, because I've just confused me

Well, I can be pretty dense (and technical and verbose) - so don't take that hard - and Thanks for trying!

The basic rule for Bands 3-4-5 is: you spend rounds equal to the destination band.

So say you want to run to Band 4. Your destination is Band 4 which equals 4 rounds spent to get there. It doesn't matter if you are starting from Band 3 or 5 it will always take 4 Rounds to get to Band 4.

Once you arrive there, in the final 4th round, you are allowed move to one of the adjacent bands.

Okay, that first line makes sense .. er .. not so much the later ones...

Ex: I spend 3 rounds to move to Band 4 from Band 3, but then decide to go to Band 5 with no cost?

Maybe 'you are allowed to move to one of the adjacent bands in a following round'? I.e. cost is one round just like the actual cost difference between 3-4-5 as if the new, new Band was the original destination. Abstractly that would make a certain sense because you may have actually moved to almost the adjacent band while spending the 3 to 5 rounds? Next moves would revert back to the original 3-4-5 expense.

That works for me, except where you started could fall under that same assumption, so I would start with 1 round on first move if already in 3-4-5 band and going to an adjacent one. Er, and moving right back. Eh... yeah I'm seeing mud puddles again...

 

[Spartan159]

As I see it:

Starting at range band 4, you need to move away, spend 5 rounds moving.
You are now range band 5.
You are now able to decide to move to another range band, in this case back to 4 or on to 6. To get to band 6 you spend another 6 rounds. It has taken you 11 rounds total to move from range band 4 to range band 6.

If you headed back to range band 4 from range band 5 then it takes you another 4 rounds, or 9 rounds total to move from 4 to 5 then back to 4.

Or this could be mud.

If someone changes their mind mid move then make them spend the same number of rounds moved getting back to where they started?

 

[Supplement Four]

Speaking of re-reading...


Is that 2D plus Range Band difference?

No. Movement doesn't happen until after all the attacks are made. So, whatever Range Band your target is in before he moves that round will give you your range...and the number of dice to throw.

 

[BytePro]

Ah - sorry, the word 'difference' was not what I should have written... my question wasn't regards movement, but rather what dice to roll when Range Band to target is 1.

My take on that is Range-1 is nominally 5m (so 'contact' upto 25m or so)...

Then the roll is 1D? Which I'd expect not to hold up well against roll under attrib + skill, making success within ~15 feet (or ~75 feet!) pretty automatic... o:

 

[Reban]

Ex: I spend 3 rounds to move to Band 4 from Band 3, but then decide to go to Band 5 with no cost?

You spend 4 rounds to move to Band 4.

Round 1: From Band 3 start running to Band 4
Round 2: Moving...
Round 3: Moving.....
Round 4: Arrived and in the movement phase of this round you may move to Band 3 or 5.

Bands 3-4-5
A Character (minimum Speed=2) can spend Rounds equal to the destination Band and then move one Band between Bands 3 - 4 - 5 in the Movement Phase of that final counted Round.

Abstractly that would make a certain sense because you may have actually moved to almost the adjacent band while spending the 3 to 5 rounds? Next moves would revert back to the original 3-4-5 expense.

I think this is the right concept. When we say Band 4 = 500m what we really mean is 500m is the "Zero point" of the Range Band. The width of Range Band 4 is 300m to 750m so you could be half way to the next Range Band.

Lets see if we can do the same movement in meters and minutes:

From Range Band 3 to Band 4 is ~350m
It takes us 4 minutes to run ~350m
And in that 4th minute we can run another 250m to 500m to end up in Band 5

That last minute is a problem as its about twice the speed that T5 assumes a human runs. But if we go back to abstract rounds it still seems plausible.

This is the most confusing bit of the rule: "and then move one Band between Bands 3 - 4 - 5 in the Movement Phase of that final counted Round". Am I interpreting it right? Or does it mean you're only considered to have moved to your destination band in the last counted round? Other useful info: This rule does not apply to moving in Bands 0-1-2 or Band 6. This all happens at Speed 2, a vehicle uses the same rule unless it moves at Speed 3 allowing it to move one band per round.

Help, more brains needed!

 

[BytePro]

...
Round 4: Arrived and in the movement phase of this round you may move to Band 3 or 5.

How, exactly, is this part written? I suspect you could only move to Band 4 - unless you declared, or were stopped, prior to the end of Round 4.

This is the most confusing bit of the rule: "and then move one Band between Bands 3 - 4 - 5 in the Movement Phase of that final counted Round". Am I interpreting it right?

Not if its your reasoning for above!

Or does it mean you're only considered to have moved to your destination band in the last counted round?

This.

I think you are reading into the rules something that isn't there.

Consider, you cannot logically skip Bands that take more than a round to cover. Marc's style of writing 'codifies' things, so 'Band 3 - 4 -5' is treated as one phrase representing the group of these Bands. So, that rule, as worded, means to me - for movement requiring over one round, you can only move one Band at a time, and Band change occurs only at the end of the last expended round.

Corollary: I would think that for Band 0-1-2, one could use Speed to move more than one relative Range Band by the end of a round. So if at Speed 2, Round 1 you could be at Band 0, while at the start of Round 2, Band 2. Or start at Band 2 and move to Band 0 by the end of a Round.

Re: more brains - none of this takes into account the movement of an opponent, nor a combination of opponents at differing ranges and speeds from different directions in conjunction with the non-linear nature of the distance scale.

(P.S. - I recommend against using minutes when referring to individual rounds. Given the actual rule, this is misleading and it is incorrect to refer to rounds = minutes, except in calculating the total estimated time. Individually the round times are undefined. From the RAW, a round could even involve doing 'nothing' and be of indeterminate length within the total combat time.)

 

[Reban]

This is the actual rule for movement between bands:

Bands 0-1-2
A Character (minimum Speed=1) can move one Band per Round between Bands 0 - 1 - 2.

Bands 3-4-5
A Character (minimum Speed=2) can spend Rounds equal to the destination Band and then move one Band between Bands 3 - 4 - 5 in the Movement Phase of that final counted Round.

Band 6
A Character at Range Band 6 or greater cannot change Range during a battle.

How, exactly, is this part written? I suspect you could only move to Band 4 - unless you declared, or were stopped, prior to the end of Round 4.

You see I'm declaring that I'm moving to Band 4, thats why it takes me 4 rounds. Reading the rule I deem that you arrive in the "final counted round" ie. the 4th round in this example. But the rule goes on to say "and then move one Band between Bands 3-4-5 in the movement phase of that [4th] counted round"

Corollary: I would think that for Band 0-1-2, one could use Speed to move more than one relative Range Band by the end of a round. So if at Speed 2, Round 1 you could be at Band 0, while at the start of Round 2, Band 2. Or start at Band 2 and move to Band 0 by the end of a Round.

As you'll see from the rule above a character can move one Band per Round. It doesn't account for a person who is running (Speed-2) covering more than one Band. Running will affect the Attack Type but doesn't seem to affect the number of Bands covered. Vehicles, regardless of speed also only move one Band per round.

Its actually fairly easy to understand multiple opponents using Range Bands as long as you remember you are at the center of concentric rings.

While I agree with you about separating rounds and minutes, I have been advocating this up thread, it is nevertheless useful to compare action in rounds to the suggested equivalent period to make sure that the abstract round is not allowing you to accomplish tasks in an unreasonable time frame.

 

[HG_B]

No. Movement doesn't happen until after all the attacks are made. So, whatever Range Band your target is in before he moves that round will give you your range...and the number of dice to throw.

So, if both are out of ammo and are using bayonets (you are 2 bands away) and ya both charge at each other you can't run until you stab each other.

Interesting rule.

 

[Reban]

You spend 4 rounds to move to Band 4.

Round 1: From Band 3 start running to Band 4
Round 2: Moving...
Round 3: Moving.....
Round 4: Arrived and in the movement phase of this round you may move to Band 3 or 5.

I believe I've spotted a fault in my example. If "I" were to move to Range Band 4 I'd be starting from Range Band 0. Likewise any character or npc will start from their personal Range Band 0.

So from Range 0 to range 4 will take 4 Rounds.

Now what about in the case of an observer and target. If the target and observer start combat in contact, Range 0, and the target moves to Range 5 the target will take 5 rounds to get to Range 5. Say the target changes to Range Band 3, that takes 3 Rounds. Next the target approaches the observer and takes 3 Rounds to cover Bands 2, 1 and 0.

I've pinned all the Ranges above as relative to the observer who is always Range 0. But from the Targets point of view the Ranges are the same as the target's is measuring range relative to itself.

 

[Supplement Four]

So, if both are out of ammo and are using bayonets (you are 2 bands away) and ya both charge at each other you can't run until you stab each other.

You won't run out of ammo with T5. There's no ammo tracking!

 

[HG_B]

You won't run out of ammo with T5. There's no ammo tracking!

:rofl:

But seriously. This combat system needs more playtest and then, a rewrite before it is ready to sold as a finished product.