OTU Only: T5SS Semi-Official Thread

[rancke]

From Page 90 of the Mongoose Solomani Rim book:

Terra’s population live in a mix of giant arcologies and more traditional cities and towns. There are many underwater cities and a large population of uplifted dolphins.

How large is 'large'? IIRC you need at least 1% of the population to be noted in the notes. On Terra, 'phins would need a population of 400 million to qualify. Yet wouldn't 300 or 200 or 100 million or even just tens of millions be a large population?


Hans

 

[Garnfellow]

How large is 'large'? IIRC you need at least 1% of the population to be noted in the notes. On Terra, 'phins would need a population of 400 million to qualify.

Don't know: large enough to be specifically noted in the text, I guess.

EDIT: To be more helpful, the Mongoose book lists Terra's 1105 population at 40 billion, but the T5SS data has it at 10 billion, which I take to mean 10-19 billion. GURPS Traveller: Rim of Fire lists the 1120 population at 18 billion.

Rim of Fire says that "Oceania is a wide territory, including Indonesia, Australia, and the scattered islands of the Pacific Ocean. Almost 3 billion people live here, most of them in great shallow-water arcologies or even in undersea cities. This is the part of the world most devoted to aquaculture, with vast kelp and fish farms stretching for thousands of miles" (p 107). I really wouldn't blink at 100, 180, or even 400 million dolphins in that context. 180 million dolphin would represent just 6% of Oceana's population.

The next page states that "millions of Vilani, Aslan, Hivers and others make Terra their home. Perhaps 8% of the planet’s population is of mixed or non-Solomani descent, even after centuries of repression during the Solomani era."

 

[Garnfellow]

Consider this totally hypothetical breakdown of Terra's non-Solomani population, assuming 18 billion:

Population	Sophont	% of Total Pop
726,000,000	mixed human	4.00%
363,000,000	vilani	2.00%
181,000,000	dolphin	1.00%
91,000,000	vargr	0.50%
45,000,000	aslan	0.25%
23,000,000	hiver	0.13%
11,000,000	vegan and other	0.06%

Those numbers don't look too crazy to me.

 

[rancke]

Consider this totally hypothetical breakdown of Terra's non-Solomani population, assuming 18 billion:

18 billion? What happened to the other 22 billion?

"Terra has a population of 40 billion." [AM6, p. 3]​

Hans

 

[Garnfellow]

18 billion? What happened to the other 22 billion?

See above. If you prefer 40 billion, just double the hypothetical breakouts. Bottom line, 400 million dolphins -- in context -- doesn't seem incredible to me.

 

[rancke]

See above. If you prefer 40 billion, just double the hypothetical breakouts. Bottom line, 400 million dolphins -- in context -- doesn't seem incredible to me.

It doesn't sound incredible to me either, but that wasn't my point. I was expressing the opinion that Terra could have a 'large population' of dolphins without said population necessarily exceeding 1% of Terra's population.

Whether the dolphin population mentioned by Mongoose is, in fact, more or less than 1% is up to Don and Marc; there's no canon conflict either way.


Hans

 

[aramis]

It doesn't sound incredible to me either, but that wasn't my point. I was expressing the opinion that Terra could have a 'large population' of dolphins without said population necessarily exceeding 1% of Terra's population.

Whether the dolphin population mentioned by Mongoose is, in fact, more or less than 1% is up to Don and Marc; there's no canon conflict either way.


Hans

Earth has several canonical minor races... chimps, orang utan, dolohins, killer whales, and humans. T20 added Ursa,

 

[DonM]

Earth has several canonical minor races... chimps, orang utan, dolohins, killer whales, and humans. T20 added Ursa,

Yes, and TNE added Ithklur according to some people. Marc already ruled on that one though. And the Ursa definitely were not created on Terra and have not settled there, based on their T20 background.

 

[DonM]

I will put in another plea to revert the T5SS changes to subsector capitals in the Solomani Rim:

Subsector	Previous Capital	T5SS Capital
Ultima (Subsector A)	Thamber (0704 A554898-C)	Iddamakur (0110 A7799AB-A)
Suleiman (Subsector B)	Suleiman (1504 AA6598B-E)	Ascalon (1207 A562AAF-E)
Concord (Subsector C)	Eleusis (2109 A789831-D)	Ephemir (2308 A675999-E)
Banasdan (Subsector H)	Banasdan (2920 A653A54-F)	Murphy (2517 A5449BE-E)
Albadawi (Subsector I)	Gaea (0722 A986986-E)	Eneldun (0326 A31498A-E)
Sol (Subsector K)	Lagash (2121 A667A8B-F)	Agidda (1824 A974979-C)
Arcturus (Subsector L)	Jael (2821 A55789A-C)	Tewfik (2528 A524945-D)

While the new capitals do reflect more Important worlds per the T5 Importance mechanic, they also override established canon -- including the recent Mongoose Traveller: Solomani Rim book. The canonical sources for the Rim are all very good, and often include reasonable rationales for why, through various quirks of history, these particular worlds were chosen as capitals.

I just don't think any of the new capitals are dramatically better choices, and in cases like that I would strongly recommend staying with established canon.

Reviewing. At the moment, for the Solomani Rim only, I'm using an older source than the Mongoose book (because this source was not available then). The only sources I'm aware of that would be valid would be the CT Solomani Rim supplement, the CT Solomani book and the Mega Solomani & Aslan (although technically this source is older than S&A). But unless you can point me at specific pages, investigating this will be delayed.

 

[DonM]

It doesn't sound incredible to me either, but that wasn't my point. I was expressing the opinion that Terra could have a 'large population' of dolphins without said population necessarily exceeding 1% of Terra's population.

Whether the dolphin population mentioned by Mongoose is, in fact, more or less than 1% is up to Don and Marc; there's no canon conflict either way.


Hans

Reviewing. Will consider a 'Dolp0' detail for Terra.

 

[Garnfellow]

Reviewing. At the moment, for the Solomani Rim only, I'm using an older source than the Mongoose book (because this source was not available then). The only sources I'm aware of that would be valid would be the CT Solomani Rim supplement, the CT Solomani book and the Mega Solomani & Aslan (although technically this source is older than S&A). But unless you can point me at specific pages, investigating this will be delayed.

OK.

CT Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim (1982) has almost no in-text discussion of the capitals, but the subsector data tables are all consistent with my recommendations.

CT Alien Module 6: Solomani (1986) has even less in-text discussion, and the data tables use a cumbersome cross-reference to show subsector capitals. If you work through that, the capitals are consistent with Supplement 10, except for this slight discrepancy: the “Solomani Rim Data” table has Lagash as the capital of Sol Subsector (consistent with Supplement 10), while “World Index” table has Terra.

Mongoose Traveller: Solomani Rim (2012) also agrees with S10, and is the best source of in-text discussion of the capitals, giving explicit discussions of all capitals except Eleusis (2109) and Jael (2821).

You didn't mention GURPS Traveller: Rim of Fire (2000) as a viable source, but the subsector capitals agree with CT S10. The book has good in-text discussions of most of the capitals, including Jael.

Looking through all of these sources, table references support reverting all the subsector capitals, and explicit in-text references support reverting all capitals except Eleusis (2109), where the support is oblique at best.

Here are the page references for the recommended reversions:

• Ultima (Subsector A): Thamber (0704 A554898-C). See CTS10 p8 (table), MGT: SR p46.
• Suleiman (Subsector B): Suleiman (1504 AA6598B-E). See CTS10 p10 (table), MGT: SR p53-54.
• Concord (Subsector C): Eleusis (2109 A789831-D). See CTS10 p12 (table), MGT: SR p55 (oblique), GT RoF 77 (oblique).
• Banasdan (Subsector H): Banasdan (2920 A653A54-F). See CTS10 p22 (table), MGT: SR p78.
• Albadawi (Subsector I): Gaea (0722 A986986-E). See CTS10 p26 (table), MGT: SR p83.
• Sol (Subsector K): Lagash (2121 A667A8B-F). See CTS10 p30 (table), MGT: SR p14, 89, CT Adventure 13 Signal GK p33.
• Arcturus (Subsector L): Jael (2821 A55789A-C). See CTS10 p32 (table), MGT: SR pCT Adventure 13 Signal GK p33, GT: RoF p113.

 

[DonM]

OK.

CT Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim (1982) has almost no in-text discussion of the capitals, but the subsector data tables are all consistent with my recommendations.

CT Alien Module 6: Solomani (1986) has even less in-text discussion, and the data tables use a cumbersome cross-reference to show subsector capitals. If you work through that, the capitals are consistent with Supplement 10, except for this slight discrepancy: the “Solomani Rim Data” table has Lagash as the capital of Sol Subsector (consistent with Supplement 10), while “World Index” table has Terra.

Mongoose Traveller: Solomani Rim (2012) also agrees with S10, and is the best source of in-text discussion of the capitals, giving explicit discussions of all capitals except Eleusis (2109) and Jael (2821).

You didn't mention GURPS Traveller: Rim of Fire (2000) as a viable source, but the subsector capitals agree with CT S10. The book has good in-text discussions of most of the capitals, including Jael.

Looking through all of these sources, table references support reverting all the subsector capitals, and explicit in-text references support reverting all capitals except Eleusis (2109), where the support is oblique at best.

Here are the page references for the recommended reversions:

• Ultima (Subsector A): Thamber (0704 A554898-C). See CTS10 p8 (table), MGT: SR p46.
• Suleiman (Subsector B): Suleiman (1504 AA6598B-E). See CTS10 p10 (table), MGT: SR p53-54.
• Concord (Subsector C): Eleusis (2109 A789831-D). See CTS10 p12 (table), MGT: SR p55 (oblique), GT RoF 77 (oblique).
• Banasdan (Subsector H): Banasdan (2920 A653A54-F). See CTS10 p22 (table), MGT: SR p78.
• Albadawi (Subsector I): Gaea (0722 A986986-E). See CTS10 p26 (table), MGT: SR p83.
• Sol (Subsector K): Lagash (2121 A667A8B-F). See CTS10 p30 (table), MGT: SR p14, 89, CT Adventure 13 Signal GK p33.
• Arcturus (Subsector L): Jael (2821 A55789A-C). See CTS10 p32 (table), MGT: SR pCT Adventure 13 Signal GK p33, GT: RoF p113.

And that's the info I needed. Reviewing.

 

[DonM]

Numerous fixes at TravellerMap...

 

[Garnfellow]

Numerous fixes at TravellerMap...

Don, thank you so much!

We have a conversion for the GURPS climate references for the T5SS data (as we have a full conversion from T5SS to GT... but the validity of those climate references has been raised. But you remind me of the open issue, and since I'm already generating the data, we might as well use it. I had forgotten about the issue of using the regenerated GT data to tweak the T5 data again. Noted!

If it were helpful, I'd be glad to go through the existing GURPS climate data for the Solomani Rim. I would just need to know how to convert the GURPS categories to T5 categories.

 

[DonM]

Don, thank you so much!



If it were helpful, I'd be glad to go through the existing GURPS climate data for the Solomani Rim. I would just need to know how to convert the GURPS categories to T5 categories.

I've got such a conversion, but dalthor is discussing a method for applying the T5 categories to the whole set of data, and I'd like to 'bring in' the GURPS data at the same time.

Let's move that discussion to another thread.

 

[Hal]

I've got such a conversion, but dalthor is discussing a method for applying the T5 categories to the whole set of data, and I'd like to 'bring in' the GURPS data at the same time.

Let's move that discussion to another thread.

One thing I'd like to bring up - you guys probably already thought about this, but I just want to be sure...

GURPS when it did its Spinward Marches data, did so using the stellar types listed in THE SPINWARD MARCHES. With the new revised star types for the various worlds, this will change some of the write ups in BEHIND THE CLAW (not that I would advocate using these!) because they were based on stars being M class stars instead of G class or K class stars.

 

[DonM]

One thing I'd like to bring up - you guys probably already thought about this, but I just want to be sure...

GURPS when it did its Spinward Marches data, did so using the stellar types listed in THE SPINWARD MARCHES. With the new revised star types for the various worlds, this will change some of the write ups in BEHIND THE CLAW (not that I would advocate using these!) because they were based on stars being M class stars instead of G class or K class stars.

I believe it's been mentioned several times that Behind the Claw isn't considered definitive canon. That being said, it is considered when it doesn't conflict, and I already have a definitive work that delineates the differences (as does Avery, GDWLoren and MongooseMatt). That is also not canon, but it has references...

Because references are everything. :rofl:

 

[Hal]

Thank the stars you added the rolling on the floor, or I'd have been worried.

 

[whulorigan]

Undesignated Canon Worlds in Traveller

I seem to recall that somewhere this question was raised before, but I can't seem to find the thread/post. So I'll put it here.

This is a list of worlds that are mentioned in Traveller canon sources that are not located anywhere on TravellerMap. When looking over the T5SS data and/or Library Data, perhaps some of these should be nailed down as to their actual location ^*:

WORLD NAME	REFERENCE	ASSOCIATED WITH
Tricanus 5	CT:LDAM, p.45-46 & MT:IE, p.9-10	(Emperor Ramon)
Rakakaka	CT:LDAM, p.45-46 & MT:IE, p.9-10	(Emperor Nicolai)
Markatch	CT:LDAM, p.45-46 & MT:IE, p.9-10	(Emperor Joseph)
Arakoine	CT:LDAM, p.45-46 & MT:IE, p.9-10	(Emperor Donald & Emperor Usuti & Empress Marava)
Nivzhine Belt	CT:LDAM, p.45-46 & MT:IE, p.9-10	(Empress Jacqueline II)
Sulgami	CT:LDAM, p.45-46 & MT:IE, p.9-10	(Emperor Ivan)
Zhimaway	CT:LDAM, p.45-46 & MT:IE, p.9-10	(Emperor Martin VI & Empress Arbellatra)

* - It is of course possible that some of these worlds might be secondary worlds in existing star systems, and not Mainworlds.
​

Are there any other worlds that have never been placed on TravellerMap/T5SS, that perhaps should be considered?

 

[Septic]

1. Farreach Spinward Marches 1402
2. TravellerMap has the Primary Stellar Type as M3 III
3. Traveller Wiki has Primary Stellar Type as M3 II
4. Other sources (Zhodani Base) which I know are not canon list the Stellar Type as M3 II as well.
5. I do not have current access to The Spinward Marches Campaign.
6. I am using the TravellerMap as my source, however it may be a misprint.
Thank you for your attention.
Max