The Spinward Marches Campaign shows it as M3 II on page 23, I have no idea if it was perhaps updated for T5 for some reason.
OTU Only: T5SS Semi-Official Thread
- Thread starter DonM
- Start date
The Marches have a number of deliberate stellar changes in T5SS, as some of the older canonical stellar data did not easily match the worlds. No review.
Noted, and I really need to slide the Dagudashaag project up on my list, if just because it involves other people's work, rather than my own.
Trojan Reach
Hi Don,
I have been advised the following TL's have been changed in the Trojan Reach
Floria 0213
Insec 0317
Vadada 0523
Theev 2116
Drinax 2223
Tech-World 2624
Auitawry 3140
I am disturbed at this change of canon as Floria and Auitawry have both got functioning ancient sites and if anything should be higher than F. (I appreciate the 3I might not know, but those of us that have spent months designing the Florians military would have wasted our time and effort).
If you are changing Drinax to the sustainable TL, it should be 4.
I can live with reduced TL for Theev as a pirate planet and Tech World as insufficient population to sustain the tech.
Kind Regards
David
Hi Don,
I have been advised the following TL's have been changed in the Trojan Reach
Floria 0213
Insec 0317
Vadada 0523
Theev 2116
Drinax 2223
Tech-World 2624
Auitawry 3140
I am disturbed at this change of canon as Floria and Auitawry have both got functioning ancient sites and if anything should be higher than F. (I appreciate the 3I might not know, but those of us that have spent months designing the Florians military would have wasted our time and effort).
If you are changing Drinax to the sustainable TL, it should be 4.
I can live with reduced TL for Theev as a pirate planet and Tech World as insufficient population to sustain the tech.
Kind Regards
David
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Just because a world has an ancient site doesn't mean the world gets a higher TL. Yes, a lot of non-Imperial TL 15s were lowered to 14 (or lower, depending on the circumstances) because Marc really impressed that TL 15 needed to mean something more. This meant that a lot of the DGP MegaTraveller TL15/16 worlds were reined in. And yes, if this were a different Milieu, and we were running to determine sustainable TLs, there would be substantial changes to a lot of worlds.
The UWP changes across the Trojan Reach were intended to restore it to its canon written status... as a frontier, that a lower TL group of Aslan clans might aspire to conquer.
At TL 15, the Florians should turn the Aslan invaders into atoms; canon tells us it's a difficult, hard fight and the Florians lose some worlds to a series of TL 12 foes. That's more excusable at TL 14 than TL 15.
Question: Can spectral type M 0 through M 7 Giant stars exist in the Traveller Universe? From what I'm able to glean from the Internet (not the most reliable source I know!), it seems that if the universe is only approximately 16 billion years old, and it takes approximately 56 to 60 Billion years for a spectral class M star to finish its main sequence, it would seem that we shouldn't be allowing for M III classifications in Traveller. Affected stars in the Spinward Marches would be:
3021 Brodie C410468-7 Ni O:3124 -2 631-2 4257 B 114 15 ImDd M1 III M7 V
2701 Lablon B646589-A Ag Ni 2 A46+3 676B BC 503 14 ImDd M2 III M4 V
1932 Mithras C8B5568-8 Fl Ni Px -2 942-2 5358 B 302 6 ImDd M2 III M0 V
1116 Frenzie A200436-A Ni Va Cp 1 734+1 3549 B N 110 5 ImDd M3 III M2 V
2411 Keanou C792348-7 He Lo -2 521-2 3157 B S 213 12 ImDd M3 III M2 V
1402 Farreach A200400-B Ni Va Da 2 C35-2 1616 KM A 415 10 ZhCo M3 III M0 V
1733 Lydia E310430-7 Ni -3 631-5 1112 B 902 11 ImDd M4 III M0 V
2134 Caledonia C541636-5 He Ni Po -2 852-3 5444 B 910 10 ImDd M4 III M0 V
2935 Murchison B544433-6 Ni Pa -1 632-4 1323 Bc N 305 8 ImDd M5 III M3 V
1825 Zaibon B000544-B As Ni Va 1 945-1 3639 B 502 9 ImDd M6 III M3 V
1204 Mongo A568685-A Ag Ni Ri 4 B58+2 4A38 BCf NS 603 7 ImDd M6 III M0 V
2232 Crout E4359CA-7 Hi -1 B88+1 B879 BE 314 9 ImDd M7 III M2 V
2933 Raydrad E99467A-6 Ag Ni -2 852+1 8478 BC 303 10 ImDd M7 III M2 V
3021 Brodie C410468-7 Ni O:3124 -2 631-2 4257 B 114 15 ImDd M1 III M7 V
2701 Lablon B646589-A Ag Ni 2 A46+3 676B BC 503 14 ImDd M2 III M4 V
1932 Mithras C8B5568-8 Fl Ni Px -2 942-2 5358 B 302 6 ImDd M2 III M0 V
1116 Frenzie A200436-A Ni Va Cp 1 734+1 3549 B N 110 5 ImDd M3 III M2 V
2411 Keanou C792348-7 He Lo -2 521-2 3157 B S 213 12 ImDd M3 III M2 V
1402 Farreach A200400-B Ni Va Da 2 C35-2 1616 KM A 415 10 ZhCo M3 III M0 V
1733 Lydia E310430-7 Ni -3 631-5 1112 B 902 11 ImDd M4 III M0 V
2134 Caledonia C541636-5 He Ni Po -2 852-3 5444 B 910 10 ImDd M4 III M0 V
2935 Murchison B544433-6 Ni Pa -1 632-4 1323 Bc N 305 8 ImDd M5 III M3 V
1825 Zaibon B000544-B As Ni Va 1 945-1 3639 B 502 9 ImDd M6 III M3 V
1204 Mongo A568685-A Ag Ni Ri 4 B58+2 4A38 BCf NS 603 7 ImDd M6 III M0 V
2232 Crout E4359CA-7 Hi -1 B88+1 B879 BE 314 9 ImDd M7 III M2 V
2933 Raydrad E99467A-6 Ag Ni -2 852+1 8478 BC 303 10 ImDd M7 III M2 V
The universe has been confirmed (by best current estimates of the Hubble Constant) to be 13.8 billion years old.
You seem to be making the presupposition that a star that starts as an M5 V (for example), turns into an M5 III as it becomes a Red Giant. This is not the case.
When a star enters the Giant Branch on the HR-Diagram, as it expands its outer layers cool, so that an M5 III star might in origin have been a G5 V (for example). In fact, most Type-III Red-Giants were originally stars on the A-K spectral range when they were on the Main Sequence.
As an A-K star ages, the rate of proton-proton fusion in its core starts to decline as the Helium "ash" from the reaction builds up in its core over time. This means that the outward pressure due to fusion declines as well, resulting in the core gradually collapsing over time, consequently becoming more dense and heating up. As the core heats up, the outer layers are driven outward due to thermal pressure and cool (due to the Virial-Theorem), resulting in a star with a very hot, dense core and a low-density, cool atmosphere.
A-K stars eventually generate enough heat/pressure in their cores to initiate helium-fusion (via the triple-alpha process) in the "core-ash", which re-establishes the outward pressure due to fusion, resulting in a stable configuration as the helium-fusion continues. Eventually the same processes will cause the helium fusion rate to slow (due to the build-up of Carbon and/or Oxygen "ash" in the stellar core, and core collapse slowly begins again as the fusion rate gradually drops off. If the mass of the stellar core is less than 1.4 solar masses, the star does not have enough self-gravitation to initiate carbon or oxygen fusion, and the core will contract into a very hot carbon-oxygen white "degenerate" dwarf, the outer layers of the star becoming gravitationally unbound due to the heating up of the dead core as it contracts, and drifting off into space as a "planetary nebula".
Red Main-Sequence Stars ("Red Dwarfs"), on the other hand, do not generally have enough mass or self-gravitation to initiate helium-fusion. So when the fusion reaction rate begins to slow (which can take up to 100 billion years, so it should not have happened yet in the lifetime of the universe), the red dwarf will transition directly from red dwarf to white "degenerate" helium-dwarf. Note that this is also because at the low temperatures of red dwarfs, the heat-transfer mechanism is largely convective rather than radiative, as it is in more massive stars. What that means in practice is that all of the hydrogen gets cycled around the star, meaning that the situation never arises in which helium "ash" builds up in the core, as the convection cycles the helium around in the star as well. Thus, red-giant expansion will not typically occur in Red Dwarf stars as they age.
A'niaqoro / Zeda (Dagudashaag 0723) - System: M2 V K4 V
K4 V star larger than M2 V stars, therefore shouldn't the K4 V star be the primary?
K4 V star larger than M2 V stars, therefore shouldn't the K4 V star be the primary?
I've been told that in these cases, the parsing would asterisk the M2 V star. So I've been holding off fixing the order until we deal with the parsing issue, which unfortunately has dropped so low in priority...
In response to others...
What I'm being told elsewhere is that M class main sequence stars never enter into the giant phase.
What is called a Red Giant phase isn't based upon the M class main sequence star going into the expansion phase, but some other like as mentioned, a G2 class. But that would mean what, that it is a G2 III when it enters the Giant phase?
As for parsing things out, I can try to come up with a means for doing just that if you'd like. It would be a trivial issue compared against say, taking the wording of checks, and converting it from One Hundred twenty thousand, two hundred thirty one dollars and 56/100 into 120,231.56. I should be able to get you an excel macro to do it for you, on a line by line basis of any of the files that can be downloaded directly from TravellerMap.com.
In the meantime, there are OTHER issues that come into play when it comes to Giant class star systems. Large massed stars burn their hydrogen quickly and have a shorter lifespan than do the lesser main sequence stars. Any world that started to develop any life such that it could generate an oxygen breathable atmosphere would have been burnt to a crisp when the star entered its Giant phase - wiping everything out. Anything else that was in the cold zone and is now able to perhaps sustain life, will die out when the Giant phase extinguishes in a matter of millions of years. In short, it doesn't have sufficient time to develop (evolve) life forms before the sun either enters its death throes, or enters into a nastier expansion phase due to burning the next element up from Helium (or so it seems from what I'm reading).
In short? Those worlds that have a Giant for a star, aren't viable candidates for life. That makes any of those agricultural worlds an anomaly (ie, something that should not exist).
Gotta run.
What I'm being told elsewhere is that M class main sequence stars never enter into the giant phase.
What is called a Red Giant phase isn't based upon the M class main sequence star going into the expansion phase, but some other like as mentioned, a G2 class. But that would mean what, that it is a G2 III when it enters the Giant phase?
As for parsing things out, I can try to come up with a means for doing just that if you'd like. It would be a trivial issue compared against say, taking the wording of checks, and converting it from One Hundred twenty thousand, two hundred thirty one dollars and 56/100 into 120,231.56. I should be able to get you an excel macro to do it for you, on a line by line basis of any of the files that can be downloaded directly from TravellerMap.com.
In the meantime, there are OTHER issues that come into play when it comes to Giant class star systems. Large massed stars burn their hydrogen quickly and have a shorter lifespan than do the lesser main sequence stars. Any world that started to develop any life such that it could generate an oxygen breathable atmosphere would have been burnt to a crisp when the star entered its Giant phase - wiping everything out. Anything else that was in the cold zone and is now able to perhaps sustain life, will die out when the Giant phase extinguishes in a matter of millions of years. In short, it doesn't have sufficient time to develop (evolve) life forms before the sun either enters its death throes, or enters into a nastier expansion phase due to burning the next element up from Helium (or so it seems from what I'm reading).
In short? Those worlds that have a Giant for a star, aren't viable candidates for life. That makes any of those agricultural worlds an anomaly (ie, something that should not exist).
Gotta run.
A G2 V star would enter the sub-giant phase (IV) and slowly progress down the G-range toward K, and eventually reach M sometime later as it continues to expand and cool, entering the giant phase (III) sometime between K and M.
A poor candidate for native life, yes. But not necessarily a poor candidate for life transplanted from elsewhere. (especially with a little help from terraforming).
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
As the star goes through its phases from G through giant then M class, some planets that started off in the habitable zone will be incinerated. Planets further out, where life may have been stifled, will bloom, as the star swells.
Just because the galactic survey says a planet is habitable today, says nothing about how long its been habitable.
I stand corrected. A G2 Main sequence star starting at a temperature of about 5,800 K will eventually reach a temperature of about 3,000 to 3,500 K - making it match the description of an M class star by temperature.
However, using Earth's star system as an example, the sun would begin to expand out to mar's orbit for a period of about 1 billion years. The new life zone will be from about 50 AU to about 71 AU distant. Unless someone "terraforms" the planetoids further out from Pluto (which will be in too close for the life zone) - we're not looking at mainworld sized planets with a ready made atmosphere, etc.
In all? I would SERIOUSLY doubt that you're going to find worlds such as Lablon or Mongo way out in trans pluto orbits for a G2 star that went into a Giant phase.
But, as Don indicated, this may be more of a planetary system generation issue than a Second Survey issue. I only brought it up here for consideration that whereas other worlds have been retconned for reasons involving Garden worlds need hotter suns than a spectral class M main sequence class, so too should those worlds lose their "Giant" classification for their stars. It took more time for earth's oceans to develop organisms capable of photosynthesis and constantly free oxygen into the atmosphere, than a Giant class star has time to "live". If most of the planets in the outer orbits of stars are the left overs of the accretion process, then they're not likely to be large ones, and hence the issue of size 6 worlds worth terraforming. If you want to say the Ancients or precursors did the dirty deed, that's fine. In a universe where travel between stars is relatively easily accomplished by the Ancients - one wonders why they needed to terraform anything. But, that's speculation that won't go very far, about as far as how many angels on a pinhead
Hi guys!
Just chiming in.
Like Hal said, while the Ancients didn't need to terra form planets, they were certainly guilty of it. In fact they were guilty of several types of anomalies according to published works.
Rosettes: Multiple worlds sharing a single orbit. Thus proving they were capable of moving entire worlds to where they wanted them to be in a star system.
Ring Worlds: Ala-Larry Niven, though apparently none were completed in known space. This alone proves that they had the ability to demolish whole worlds, move the debris and put it back together in physics defying materials that could stand the stresses of such construction.
Pocket Universes: They also had the ability to pinch off whole sections of the fabric of space-time to make pocket-universes. The energy required to do this little trick is mind-boggling unto itself, and probably required some form of ZP generators of unlimited output.
SO, for charted space, anomalies of Garden worlds around giant stars with full bio-spheres is easily explained. The Ancients did it. The real question would be why did they do it. Was it a test of their world moving technologies, or did they move the world for some other purposes? Could they have been studying something of such importance that that they decided that they needed to move an entire world so that resources would be available close at hand? Were they saving some special project from being destroyed? Was it simply proof of concept, a test showing they could do it? You never do just one proof of concept. With universe pinching capabilities, the energy requirements involved in changing the primary star of a system would be trivial at best.
The truth? Who knows. Well, I'm sure those few Ancients still at large DO know, but they aren't talking as the war is still going on. (Yes, I know that saying more than one Ancient is still at large irks some people, but that's how it is. Thank you very much MgT: Secret of the Ancients.)
All that said, I also realize that nothing I have postulated fixes any of the anomalies that crop up in world generation. But it might keep the Traveller map from being changed any more than it has to be.
Just chiming in.
Like Hal said, while the Ancients didn't need to terra form planets, they were certainly guilty of it. In fact they were guilty of several types of anomalies according to published works.
Rosettes: Multiple worlds sharing a single orbit. Thus proving they were capable of moving entire worlds to where they wanted them to be in a star system.
Ring Worlds: Ala-Larry Niven, though apparently none were completed in known space. This alone proves that they had the ability to demolish whole worlds, move the debris and put it back together in physics defying materials that could stand the stresses of such construction.
Pocket Universes: They also had the ability to pinch off whole sections of the fabric of space-time to make pocket-universes. The energy required to do this little trick is mind-boggling unto itself, and probably required some form of ZP generators of unlimited output.
SO, for charted space, anomalies of Garden worlds around giant stars with full bio-spheres is easily explained. The Ancients did it. The real question would be why did they do it. Was it a test of their world moving technologies, or did they move the world for some other purposes? Could they have been studying something of such importance that that they decided that they needed to move an entire world so that resources would be available close at hand? Were they saving some special project from being destroyed? Was it simply proof of concept, a test showing they could do it? You never do just one proof of concept. With universe pinching capabilities, the energy requirements involved in changing the primary star of a system would be trivial at best.
The truth? Who knows. Well, I'm sure those few Ancients still at large DO know, but they aren't talking as the war is still going on. (Yes, I know that saying more than one Ancient is still at large irks some people, but that's how it is. Thank you very much MgT: Secret of the Ancients.)
All that said, I also realize that nothing I have postulated fixes any of the anomalies that crop up in world generation. But it might keep the Traveller map from being changed any more than it has to be.
Dark Nebula 2601
This system is a notorious Solomani prison world, described in Solomani and Aslan and Traveller's Digest 17. It is notable as the only name as it appears on star charts is its location. The T5SS data now gives the name as "541-668," and has it owned/controlled by Reaver's Deep 2540. Would remove the control note, as I assume the world is directly controlled by the Confederation. Is 541-668 a location? If so, it's an Imperial usage and probably not appropriate.
This system is a notorious Solomani prison world, described in Solomani and Aslan and Traveller's Digest 17. It is notable as the only name as it appears on star charts is its location. The T5SS data now gives the name as "541-668," and has it owned/controlled by Reaver's Deep 2540. Would remove the control note, as I assume the world is directly controlled by the Confederation. Is 541-668 a location? If so, it's an Imperial usage and probably not appropriate.
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