Terran Confederation/Solomani Imperium

[MJD]

By the way - an electromagnetic field can affect your non-electric wristwatch because of the MAGNETIC component of the electromagnetic field.

Electromagnetism is rather poorly understood in physics today. Who knows what parallels between the variosu forces and psionics might be in the process of being uncovered in the 58th century when gravity, weak & strong nuclear forces etc are all understood enough to make devuices that contoil them.

And repulsors too. Anyone know how they work? Anyone care to explain exasctly what they can or can not interact with?

 

[mike wightman]

My understanding of that adventure is the Virus subverted psionic effect duplicating machinery, much like the artificial psionics in the Regency that Martin mentioned, and was able to use the machinery to duplicate psionic effects. If you were to remove the Virus from the machinery it would no longer be able to produce these psionic effects because the Virus itself is not psionic. It does, however, probably remember the schematics of the machinery and so, if given the right equipment could reproduce it

.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by MJD:
Survival Marguin makes refernce to chips that can generate electromagnetic fields to levitate short distances.

I know of no means by which a piece of silicon with no external power source can generate enough lift this way. The phenomenon of psionic telekinesis, however, seems to invilve a simialr defiance of normal physical laws and conservation of energy.

There may be a connection.

There is an external power source though - the chips are solar powered aren't they?

I dunno though... I can just about swallow the idea of sentient, mobile silicon chips. But making them 'psionic' just utterly breaks suspension of disbelief for me. It's too wacko.

The 'move via magnetic fields' explanation is something more grounded in physics. I can picture these 'chips' storing power in a capacitor-like system and discharging it somehow to generate the magnetic field (I'm also imagining that Cymbeline has a bloody strong magnetic field, and the 'chips' are very light in weight). They don't move around like that all the time, but it's handy for rapid escapes to 'flip' out of the way of something.

But if you say they're moving around by psionic means, that just sound barmy to me. For one thing, it's like saying we move around psionically by willing our limbs to move using the Power Of Our Minds. I think the Chips' 'magetic movement' is equivalent to the way we move our limbs.

If you want to argue that 'psionics' is the manipulation of electromagnetic fields and signals by force of sentient will (or more precisely, some kind of strange arm-wavy magical ability that allows the brain to act as a transmitter and receiver of such signals), then I think that should only apply to organic minds. Silicon-based creatures like the Chips have the hardware built into them to transmit and generate those fields through normal physical means. Organic minds do not - so if they are capable of such feats then they are unusual and can be classed as 'psionic'.

 

[MJD]

Err, thanks Erik.

Now, can anyone tell me how organic brains make new neural pathways, in English?

And, can anyone tell me how Virus re configues silicon?

 

[MJD]

Virus is not psionic per se. However, it is known to be able to manipulate EM fields remotely. It probably recconfigures silicon by this kind of remote field creation.

The only parallel to this activity in human experience is psionics.

We do know that psionic activity is affected by EM fields, so a link is possible.

There is a possibility of actual psionic Virus. It is sentient and so little is understood about psionics that anything is possible. Esp since Psionics involves manipilulaiton of the world by remote force, which is something that chips seem to do.

So, virus is not a psionic thing in the strict sense. It displays some traits in common with some psionic activities and is considered by some to have psionic potential. But there are no hordes of telepathic Vampires runnig around.

 

[mike wightman]

How can the Virus re-configure silicon? Why would Imperial computers still be based on silicon in the first place?

The description of how the (tiny, wafer-like, no bigger than a square cm of paper) Cymbeline chips reproduce is they use silicon wafers and dopants found in the same area which they etch and deposit to make a copy of themselves using solar energy as the power source and electromagnetism for the manipulation and energy transfers needed. Sounds like nanotechnology to me.(Oops, we're not allowed the N word in Traveller. Psionics, yes. Nanotechnology, no.

Just kidding, honest.)
Some predator chips force other chips to etch their pattern onto themselves instead. And some are so powerful they can manipulate EM fields to do this at a distance.
My understanding of Virus was that it is a signal, a code, that makes a Deyo circuit "wake up" and re-configure itself into a malevolent entity. I could not understand how it could affect any other computer system until Erik mentioned ERCs( hey, they're named after him

) and I thought about how logical it would be if Imperial computer cores were re-configurable(like many of their starship and vehicle control systems). The Virus can now use any high tech re-configurable computer core to duplicate itself, provided it can find a way to transmit the re-configuration code either by radio or the good old fashioned Cymbeline way . It can also use the direct contact method to infect low tech silicon chips that aren't re-configurable.
And no, as a Chemist and Physicist I don't believe this is possible in the real world either. But sometimes you've got to suspend disbelief.
I happen to agree that if Viral entities are sentient then they should have the same psionic potential as organic races. But who's going to test and train them?
I look forward to reading about your take on all this.

 

[Erik Boielle]

00000Err, thanks Erik.

Now, can anyone tell me how organic brains make new neural pathways, in English?00000

Hmm. Well, your brain is a network of cells called neurons, right?

See figure 1 for a picture of a neruon:-

http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBackgrounders/communication.htm

Note the short arms Dendrites, through which the neruon recieves inputs.

And the long Axom, through which the neuron sends its signal.

Each neuron recieves signals from other neurons. It takes each input it gets, performs an operation on it, say, multiply it by 2 or something, sums the total of all inputs it gets, then, if this value is higher than its magic number, it sends a signal down its arm to another neuron.

This ouput is fed in to a new neuron, along with outputs from another bunch of neurons. And on, and on, and on...

By having 100 billion connections like this, you can get the funky outputs we all know and love.

Now, neurons can form new connections by growing new arms like any other cell. The brain releases chemicals that the neruons can detect, and they grow towards, or away from these chemicals.

But I think the important part is changing the weighting of it inputs - how relatively important each input is in the little sum each neuron does to see if it is on.

Cause that changes which combination of inputs triggers an out and so changes the flow of information through the net. Without modifying the connections.

Those, I'd imagine are also modified by chemical processes, but, like, this aint my field so I don't really know.

And neruotransmitter chemicals modify how signals pass between neurons. Which is no doubt part of the weighting process.

Controlling and directing this beast is so it provides meaningful output is, I think, not a task that deserves a just. I mean, how the hell did this come about. Its almost worth a higher power because, like, wow man.

--

In the Erik model virus this etching is done either by some kinda high tech dodad that holds a holds a lattice in place in a fluid bath with, like, magnets, or something, then fixes the matrix somehow or some other dodgy nanotech technique.

But it makes bugger all difference really - nanoscale manipulators to burn billions of connections or small scale psionics.

But vague is good. Avoids possible trigger words like Psionics around those who are sensitive.

--

For what its worth, I've rather enjoyed the material up so far.

I have my Viking and other related issues obviously (but then I would), but overall theres good stuff.

So I object to some of the implementation (come see the oppression inherent in the system Help Help!), but, like, the concept I quite like.

I am always unsure of what people will like, but it seems to continue far more stories from CT/MT than TNE did, and that ought to go down well.

Really given me something to daydream about during my running, so it has.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by MJD:
Electromagnetism is rather poorly understood in physics today.

Giggle. Electromagnetism is very well understood; all the uncertainties lie at energy levels exceeding those which can reliably be produced on earth, or at occurrence levels that are ridiculously low.

 

[Erik Boielle]

I didn't object to River from firefly.

I quite liked Greg Mendel of the mindstar brigade*.

I was thinking how I enjoyed the teleporting death commandos from that broadsword adventure far more than trying to think of excuses for crew skills to have an impact on space combat**

Shrug. Maybe it bothers one more in principal than in practice.

*But he was british and rock, so I wouldn't.

**Although

http://www.adastragames.com/downloads.html

Attack Vector! is still fun, for different reasons.

 

[kaladorn]

FPGAs and a number of other similar reconfigurable technologies use a sea of gates (or if they're things designed to be burnt once and stay, fusable links). This 'sea of gates' allows a layout of a particular lattice to be 'burnt on' with particular areas being made conductive or non-conductive (or perhaps that is semi-conductive and insulative or something). This can be re-configured by reapplying the burn in process that was used initially, which was an electrical (or perhaps electromagnetic) one.

I'm assuming high tech chips are some super advanced version of this. Reconfigurable digital circuits actually aren't too hard.... it would be reconfigurable analog chips that would be a right sonofagun.

And I have to agree with Anthony, its an old tired bit of folklore that we don't understand electromagnitism, high energy physics, etc. We understand quite a bit, except some of the very high or low (miniscule) energy stuff. And even that we have some strong indicators about, just haven't proved them yet (or disproved...).

To me the chip's reproduction is a little interesting because the implication is they can self etch on blank silicon. That's kind of a neat power and implies they could lay down a variety of analog and digital chip patterns or composite ones. And a well laid out chip could be quite capable, using and adding extra space to its 'neural network' as it ages and grows.

The whole maglev thing should only be
- for short distances
- with prodigious (relative) power expenditures

In the long run, chip mobility is linked to the parasitic ability to get latched onto a bot or ship or some such other mobile entity. But that' something chips would be very good at and they could even co-exist with bot AI in some strains, and make for a symbiotic rather than parasitic relationship.

And I hope when they do get to the 58th century, we can afford to get MJD a spell checker... <yes, I am running for the bunker... I can hear the ortillery coming down now....>

 

[Malenfant]

The fact that the chip can etch itself on blank silicon also implies that there is actually lots of that lying around on the surface of Cymbeline.

There can't be, though. AFAIK Silicon is never found in an elemental form on planets, it's always locked up in the rocks as... well, as the rock formuing minerals (silicon dioxide (quartz), feldspars, mica, etc). So something odd is going on if there's actual 'naked' silicon lying around - unless they somehow extract that from the rock-forming minerals.

That makes me wonder if the 'chips' are not actually 'silicon chips', but are actually proper silicon lifeforms (I always had this image of an actual silicon chip walking around on its little metal legs, which can't be right

), with 'natural' capacitors, diodes, and transistor like things along with chemical extractors and other things. Maybe the 'chips' are actually the brains of the lifeform? Someone mentioned nanites earlier - if the chips rely on those to reproduce and do other 'natural' things, then it does make them a hell of a lot more reasonable IMMO.

 

[kaladorn]

We don't have too many planets to base our assumptions about what exists where on...

It may well be that some sort of process (volcanism, plate tectonics) exposes the silicon from buried or embeded strata, thus allowing the reproduction. Or maybe the chips do in fact get the silicon by working it out of the rocks, or perhaps something else does that (some other Cymbeline life form) and the chips merely make use of the unused silicon the other entity leaves behind perhaps as a waste product.

It is possible the chips really are the core engine of something like nanomachinery and nano-engines. I think the chips are a silicon life-form. In much the same way bacteria and conventional virii are living, chips may well be living (and below naked-eye visibility levels). A single chip might actually be a nanomachine or nanocprocessor network or hive mind.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
[QB] We don't have too many planets to base our assumptions about what exists where on...

You greatly underestimate what we know about the universe - chemistry works the same everywhere. Silicon isn't found in it's free form anywhere in a natural environment - it would have to be extracted by an artifical process.

It may well be that some sort of process (volcanism, plate tectonics) exposes the silicon from buried or embeded strata, thus allowing the reproduction.

Nope. The best you can do that way is to expose quartz veins (SiO2). The problem is, it's very difficult to separate the silicon from the oxygen (which is why you don't get Si on its own anywhere). Apparently, we heat SiO2 (in the form of sand) with coke (carbon) in an electric furnace to extract the silicon. That means the Chips need to have a carbon source too, and probably use their own power sources to power internal furnaces to convert silica grains into silicon. Which is kinda interesting.

Or maybe the chips do in fact get the silicon by working it out of the rocks, or perhaps something else does that (some other Cymbeline life form) and the chips merely make use of the unused silicon the other entity leaves behind perhaps as a waste product.

That might be possible... but then I'd imagine that since it's so hard to extract, silicon-based life wouldn't really excrete pure silicon as a waste product - they'd use it all up themselves.

It is possible the chips really are the core engine of something like nanomachinery and nano-engines. I think the chips are a silicon life-form. In much the same way bacteria and conventional virii are living, chips may well be living (and below naked-eye visibility levels). A single chip might actually be a nanomachine or nanocprocessor network or hive mind.

I think they're stated to be quite large (ie visible).

 

[mike wightman]

Kaladorn wrote:

The whole maglev thing should only be
- for short distances
- with prodigious (relative) power expenditures

Signal GK gives the movement rates as 10mm per hour for levitation and 10m per hour for gas current riding. Most are solar powered and require direct sunlight to move, others have developed capacitors and can hunt at night.
"Don't worry chip, the nasty Vampire can only get you in the daylight...argh erk eek"

In the long run, chip mobility is linked to the parasitic ability to get latched onto a bot or ship or some such other mobile entity. But that' something chips would be very good at and they could even co-exist with bot AI in some strains, and make for a symbiotic rather than parasitic relationship.

Combining the increasing chip intelligence (see earlier post) with Book 8 Robots I would add the apparent Int of the robot or AI to the Int of the chip, with a limit of doubling the chip Int.
Note that in the adventure the chip hooked up to the ship's computer gets smarter and can use the computers functions but it doesn't graft itself to the computer or overwrite it. Someone with electronics skill has to provide the link.

Oh, and the adventure stresses that these things are lifeforms.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Oh, and the adventure stresses that these things are lifeforms. [/QB]

What, these things *are* actually little ambulatory silicon wafers?!

 

[mike wightman]

Well, they haven't got the little legs you mentioned earlier , but yes they match all the general characteristics of a living thing:

Movement- by electrostatic levitation;

Respiration- a better definiton is probably energy transfer and re-distribution within one's own body in this case, theirs comes from sunlight;

Sensitivity to environment- they can detect EM radiation of a variety of wavelengths and can detect volcanic gases and analyse them for useful dopants;

Growth- they can expand their circuits and build library chips to extend their abilities;

Reproduce- we wouldn't have Virus if they couldn't

, some reproduce asexualy, some sexualy ;

Excrete- not mentioned, but as they are burning new circuits there must be waste gases released.

Nutrient requirement- to grow and reproduce they need silicon and dopants from their environment.

They also have predator/prey relationships, parasites and symbiotes.

They are no bigger than a square centimetre wafer and have a mass of less than one gram.

All from Signal GK.

 

[MJD]

Since it caused giggles, it would appear that I've missed something obvious.

How/why does magnetism occur?

BTW: I've referred to Silicon a lot because TNE materials do. Virus must by definition be capable of reconfguring other materials that are used in computers.

Indeed, 1248 has references to Viral invasion of non-silicon computers.

 

[mike wightman]

How/why does magnetism occur?

The simple explanation is it is a force effect field produced when electrons move in the same direction,e.g. in a current carrying wire.
In magnetic metals such as iron, cobalt and nickel the simple model is a bit different. You have to imagine the bar is made up of tiny magnets, or domains, which can line up so as to produce an overall magnetic field. Each domain is a tiny crystal made of atoms joined in such a way that their outer electrons can flow around the crystal to produce this small magnet. You can actually produce a magnet by taking an unmagnetic iron bar, orientating it north to south and then braying the dickens out of it witha hammer.

Indeed, 1248 has references to Viral invasion of non-silicon computers.

Good. So long as the CPU can be re-configured to match the Viral neural structure by software I can't think of a reason why non-silicon computer systems couldn't be infected. Of course the chips won't be able to reproduce by direct physical contact with these non-silicon systems .Shame to spoil their fun

.

 

[Elliot]

POTENTIAL SPOILER IF YOU WANT TO PLAY SIGNAL GK (and rant)

So that we have our beloved canon open to all I thought a bit of typing would help ((c) of FFE) - sorry for those who have the book currently open but I think a selection may assist this discussion.

Signal GK p.42

'The most common form of life is carbon based . . . On Cymbeline, natural processes have produced a silicon based life form instead: life that is based on microscopic circuits randomly and naturally etched into silicon crystals. . . . volcanic gases etched silicon crystals and doped them with various elements to form small circuits. . . . at least one was capable of reproducing itself, and it did. . . . many millions of distinct chip types evolved.'

'Chip biology on Cymbeline is based on the utilization of radiant energy from the system's star . . . neatly bypassing the need for food intake and waste elimination.'

'Chips have two different forms of mobility. Some accumulate electric charges and use them to levitate themselves across short distances ['up to 10mm per hour(in a series of short hops) as long as sun light is available' (p.43)]. Others have developed ways to steer and maneuver using those same charges while riding currents of volcanic gases ['up to 10 meters per hour'(p.43)].'

p.43

'chips have one basic sense that sees or hears accros the wavebands through visible light to the radio waves. Chips also radiate in this spectrum: some emit light, others radio waves. Higher forms of chip communicate with brief pulses of energy'.

'The naturally occuring chips of Cymbeline are very small in size'

p.44

'Most chips are below 1 gramin weight and no larger than 1 square centimeter'

p.45

'The individual chips have an intelligence in the range of 6-11 (1D+5). This intelligence is increased when several chips band together (average their intelligence and add +1 for each chip in the group; maximum six chips). One chip in a group will be the dominant and control the intelligence of the group; the others will simply contribute their processing powers.'

As many have said - this is science FICTION. THe whole thing was balony in 1985 when Signal GK came out. Virus in TNE was a deus ex machina for Dave Nilsen and Loren Wiseman and the GDW gang to rescue Traveller from MT.

That rescue involved a change in the direction of T2K, a big seller among GDW's paying public at the time (who in my experience were predominately military or ex military) (- by the way this is not criticism ). From reading Challenge and the Digest at the time, it appears to me, that Mr Nilsen and Mr Wiseman were also more into writing military based adventures than Mr Miller or Mr Fugate sr were in days gone by. The Traveller environment therefore changed.

TNE mk1 was a good STORY line. However, it lacked the depth of adventure available in CT/MT and many players ran from it - mine included. It is my hope that 1248 corrects this problem (which, from what I have seen it does).

Others ran from TNE because Traveller had ceased to be a hard science ficton game. We have to live with that now, but in my view Virus cannot be made hard science no matter what. It is baloney and always was. The best we can hope for is that Virus can be made as plausible as possible (hence the value of these debates).

I dont see that Virus was psionic but I am prepared to accept that it may use energies that are akin to the energies generated by psionic minds and that there may be cross interference. This would explain the psionic special that allows for computer telepathy.

I think we should aim at accomodating Virus within our suspension of disbelief rather than trying to give it a true hard science feel.

 

[Erik Boielle]

00000Others ran from TNE because Traveller had ceased to be a hard science ficton game.00000

You mean theres another set before the CT reprints that was hard science?

Or just that time has moved on making traveller in to a retrofuture kind of setting?

Thing is, Revelation Space has pretty much a Virus in the form of a nanoplague. And TS could find a home for it.

I'd still prefer to see Virus remain Jump Drive style technomagic rather than teleporting death commandos psioncmagic.