Terran Dawn Campaign Guide [Progress, Questions]

[Sturn]

Question

I was hoping for a “small ship universe” for my Terran Dawn campaign (Solomani Rim pocket empires towards the end of the Long Night).

Published Traveller products lists the largest known TL 12 Terran Confederation ship, just before forming the 2nd Imperium, at 30,000 tons. The much larger 2nd Imperium stayed at TL 12, but probably would have put out some larger ships before their fall into the Long Night. The Old Earth Union pocket empire centered on Terra held out a small pocket of civilization through the Long Night which lasted many centuries.

The Old Earth Union pocket empire at under 10 systems is a speck of dust compared to the 2nd Imperium and fell to TL 11, perhaps a little lower, before rising back to near TL 12 again.

What is a realistic largest ship for the Old Earth Union? TL 12 Terran Confederation was somewhat larger then the Old Earth Union when their best (known) battleship was 30,000 tons (Gurps Interstellar Wars). TL 12 Sylea when beginning to grow to sector size had the use of a 90,000 ton battleship (T4 Melieu 0 campaign guide). This makes me think I would be justified in making the TL 11-12 eight system Old Earth Union's largest battleship well under 30.000 tons. Perhaps 20,000 or even 10,000 tons?

Thoughts?

 

[Antony]

When I did my United Worlds Commonwealth universe which was set arounf TL9-11 with off 12 I basically set my larger battleships at around 20,000 dt, the bigger cruisers at half this and other classes scaling down from there. I found this worked quite well and also allowed fighters (always a bone of contention in Traveller) to actually have some use against the larger warships.

 

[splicer]

FWIW, GT:Sword Worlds p. 7 describes the OEU Loyalist Sword-class troop transport Gram as carrying 40,000 troops. Not sure how the math would work out in tonnage, but figure low berths, equipment, and vehicles + whatever size of ship, engines, fuel, etc. to carry it all. Maybe someone has done the math? A troop transport is not exactly the kind of warship you meant, but it might give some scale.

The campaign seed on p. 8 mentions the Kestrel, a 5000-ton OEU Loyalist destroyer escort. From the wording on p. 7, which mentions destroyers and escorts, I'm guessing this is a destroyer's escort and not an escorting destroyer.

Finally, pg. 96 describes the OEU Loyalist ship Robert the Bruce as being a 20,000-ton Rob Roy-class cruiser. P. 7 calls her a light cruiser.

From the text, these ships left Terra in -420. Hope this helps. BTW, nice project!

 

[Sturn]

FWIW, GT:Sword Worlds p. 7 describes the OEU Loyalist Sword-class troop transport Gram as carrying 40,000 troops. Not sure how the math would work out in tonnage, but figure low berths, equipment, and vehicles + whatever size of ship, engines, fuel, etc. to carry it all. Maybe someone has done the math? A troop transport is not exactly the kind of warship you meant, but it might give some scale.

The campaign seed on p. 8 mentions the Kestrel, a 5000-ton OEU Loyalist destroyer escort. From the wording on p. 7, which mentions destroyers and escorts, I'm guessing this is a destroyer's escort and not an escorting destroyer.

Finally, pg. 96 describes the OEU Loyalist ship Robert the Bruce as being a 20,000-ton Rob Roy-class cruiser. P. 7 calls her a light cruiser.

From the text, these ships left Terra in -420. Hope this helps. BTW, nice project!

Holy crap a nuggest of OEU information I didn't have. I had done tons of research and didn't think there was such detail in the Sword Worlds guide since it was 3rd Imperium era. I have almost every Gurps sourcebook, but not that one. I'm going to have to get a copy and change a few things to get in sink. I don't want to contradict anything already published on this era. I might have to change my "Expansionists" to "Loyalists" I was setting things up so if my time-line advanced it would in fact lead to the same civil war that the Gram fled from. I thought I had every source out there. Thanks Splicer!

Does anyone know if the Gurps Sword Worlds author frequents this board? Would love to get into contact with him. Hans one of the authors? I wouldn't want to step on any toes by using names of ships and such from their book in my free documents without his/their approval.

 

[rancke]

I might have to change my "Expansionists" to "Loyalists" I was setting things up so if my time-line advanced it would in fact lead to the same civil war that the Gram fled from.

The Gram fled in -420. If your campaign is set around 0, those events are as far behind as the 30 Year War is behind us.

The capacity of the Gram was based on the size I wanted for the initial colony. I deliberately didn't specify the size, but for comparson, RbS has a 50,000T TL13 Aslan transport capable of carrying 10,000 ihatei. This includes 1.5 dT of colony equipment per colonist, though. How much equipment would a troop transport carry? GF has the Keith-class 30,000 T troop transport, a TL 12 ship that carries a tad less than 4,000 troops, but those are not in low berths but in bunkrooms.

Somewhere in the back of my mind I have the figure 100,000 T for the Gram, but that's a complete guess.

Does anyone know if the Gurps Sword Worlds author frequents this board? Would love to get into contact with him. Hans one of the authors?

Yes.


Hans

 

[Sturn]

The Gram fled in -420. If your campaign is set around 0, those events are as far behind as the 30 Year War is behind us.

I set my campaign not at 0, but at a short time before the civil war in the Old Earth Union. I had been trying initially to make the date vague because I didn't want a player looking at a canon timeline then saying, "oh X is going to happen a year from now!". The entire idea of the civil war that led to the exodus to the Sword Worlds erupting in the near future was supposed to be a secret.

Somewhere in the back of my mind I have the figure 100,000 T for the Gram, but that's a complete guess.

Yikes. I was hoping for a "small ship universe" for my campaign. 100k surpasses anything I was planning by far. Especially for a transport. Hmm..what to do?

Yes.

Hans

Just ordered me a Swords World copy (sorry used). I may be bugging you again when it arrives. The ships Splicer described were just mentioned, not fully described I assume? If that is the case I would be asking permission to use the same names and general descriptions in my free guide and keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[Sturn]

......OEU Loyalist Sword-class troop transport Gram as carrying 40,000 troops. Not sure how the math would work out in tonnage......

......Kestrel, a 5000-ton OEU Loyalist destroyer escort.....

....OEU Loyalist ship Robert the Bruce as being a 20,000-ton Rob Roy-class cruiser. P. 7 calls her a light cruiser.

If the Gram would have to be as large as Hans predicted, it would ruin what I had planned for ship sizes.

A 5,000 ton Kestrel destroyer fits in well however, just a matter of replacing a ship I had already planned with a different class name.

A 20,000 ton Rob Roy-class ship would also fit in well, but I would have hoped it was a "battleship" instead of a cruiser for the target range I was looking at.

Bah, you've thrown my plans into a condundrum with the added information. I'm torn between my plans and my set goal of not contradicting anything else previously published on the melieu.

 

[rancke]

A 20,000 ton Rob Roy-class ship would also fit in well, but I would have hoped it was a "battleship" instead of a cruiser for the target range I was looking at.

You could assume that the description is from the POW of someone writing a historical note in the Year 1120. As such, the writer may have superimposed his own preconceptions ("20,000 T warships are light cruisers") on the historical reality (In -420, 20,000 T warships were considered to be heavy cruisers/light battleships/whatever).

(Yes, in retrospect I think I made a mistake referring to a 20,000 T ship as a light cruiser).


Hans

 

[splicer]

I set my campaign not at 0, but at a short time before the civil war in the Old Earth Union. I had been trying initially to make the date vague because I didn't want a player looking at a canon timeline then saying, "oh X is going to happen a year from now!". The entire idea of the civil war that led to the exodus to the Sword Worlds erupting in the near future was supposed to be a secret.

Sturn,

Poop! My keen eye led to a spoiler. Sorry about that. I put 2 and 2 together and came up with GT:SW after reading your campaign guide. Not that it's a Bad Thing; I rather like the concept.

Yikes. I was hoping for a "small ship universe" for my campaign. 100k surpasses anything I was planning by far. Especially for a transport. Hmm..what to do?

I'm afraid I can't help you there (I'm not really a ship guy) other than to say "Anything you want IYTU." Although I realize you are trying to stick close to the OTU.

The ships Splicer described were just mentioned, not fully described I assume?

Just mentioned, no full specs. Unless I missed something. It took a bit of page flipping to dig up those numbers.

 

[splicer]

You could assume that the description is from the POW of someone writing a historical note in the Year 1120. As such, the writer may have superimposed his own preconceptions

Nice save!

 

[Sturn]

You could assume that the description is from the POW of someone writing a historical note in the Year 1120.....

Hans

Nice save!

I second that.

I've been redoing some of my ship lists, altering the tonnage, seeing where the list below would fit nicely. It still seems very doable. The only stickler would be if a 100k ship is indeed required to haul around 40k personnel with equipment. It would seem you would need a mammoth ship. I might have to glance over a couple versions of starship construction rules and see how many people under the worst conditions you could cram into perhaps a 50k ship? I already have put togather some ideas explaining the need for such a ship that fits quite well into what I have already done. If I can get 40k troops into 50k of ship I've got some added flavor for my campaign that still works well with Hans's work.

 

[splicer]

Sturn,

Maybe I can help after all with some final thoughts before bedtime.

According to Wikipedia, cruisers are the largest gunships currently in operation. Only four nations use them, the largest ships in most navies today are destroyers. Your campaign is set 20 years prior to the Gram exodus, with tensions rising between the Expansionists and the Isolationists. The events leading to the GT:SW civil war probably include the construction of ever larger warships. 20,000 ton cruisers might be supplanted by 25,000-30.000 ton "heavy" cruisers by -420, leading to ships of the old size being refered to as "light." Perhaps a larger battleship or two gets built during this time as well. All good background to your campaign. They don't have to be fully operational yet, but a few could come online here and there over the years. This keeps you between 10,000-20,000 tons in the beginning of your campaign, at least.

Also, I don't think the Kestrel is a destroyer. I believe she is an escort to a destroyer, but probably Hans can clarify this. If so, 10,000 or so tons would probably be the size of a destroyer.

The only breakage I see here might come from the size of the Gram herself. Hans stated that, in print, he deliberately left the size vague. This gives you a little wiggle room. Even if she's 60,000-70,000 tons, she's not a fighting ship. She's a transport. A big fat target, perhaps, but that would explain a sizable escort squadron. This leaves the size of warships which normally engage each other a little smaller.

The construction of huge invasion ships and the ambitious build up of troops to fill them might be the straw that breaks the camels back IYTU's OEU. I don't have GT:Rim of Fire, just SW, so I don't know what it has to say about any of this, if much.

FWIW, that's all I got. Maybe some of the ship building gearheads on here can offer better guidance. Good luck.

P.S. Almost forgot! http://www.bitsuk.net/Archive/archive_background/101Starships/101Starships.html might be of some use to you.

 

[Sturn]

Thanks Splicer. Some of what you are thinking is what I was toying with also. Great minds think alike? Several ideas I was working on:

1. I imagined, like Hans was suggesting, that the dton range of different classes of ships would be quite smaller then those used by the later, much larger, 3rd Imperium. I would have no problem calling the Kestrel a 5,000 ton Escort Destroyer instead of a Destroyer Escort if that fits well with Gurps SW.

2. In retrospect, "Loyalists" actually fills in a gap for me. I have Expansionists vs. Isolationists in the OEU government leading up towards a civil war. Isolationists call themselves the "Prosperity Party". Isolationists is to Prosperity Party what Liberal is to Democratic Party. I didn't have a like name for Expansionists. So, Sword Worlds fills in a gap for me by making Expansionists to Loyalist Party similar to Conservatism to Republican Party (sorry if not US, used the references I know).

3. From Traveller and modern Navy research I came up with from large to small classes, Battleship (aka Battlecruiser), Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate (sometimes not used), Corvette. I had left out Escort which seemed more of a role then a class and was akin to Corvette in a modern Navy.

4. In my recent history, I had already come up with the Expansionist/Loyalist and Isolationist/Prosperity Parties battling over the construction of a new, TL 12ish Hiroshi-class battleship that was much larger then anything that had come before. Stewing over this, I thought I could expand this into greater detail by describing a dispute over a "Naval Capitalization Doctrine" proposed by the Expansionists/Loyalists. The "NCD" was proposed to fund construction that would greatly increase the size of the largest capital ships in the OEU Navy. Three ships were planned: The Hiroshi-class 20k or 40k Battlecruiser (I may be changing the name to Rob Roy-class if allowed and if I stay with 20k), a 10k or 30k Scout Cruiser meant for aggressive exploration/expansion, and a mammoth Gram-class transport able to move several divisions (openly or secretly perhaps the mammoth transport's purpose was to help with a future campaign to knock out the Dingir League). All three ships would be built with some of the new TL 12 technology including prototype Jump 3 drives. When the campaign starts, only one Battlecruiser and two Scout Cruisers were completed before the Isolationists won a stay of the program and put an end to the funding. I had plans (spoiler) that one of the future disputes that leads to the civil war includes the discovery of the Expansionists illegally producing a couple more of these ships at a secretive shipyard using fraudulent money funneling. So, the Gram could be one of the ships being built secretly that is discovered, furthering the civil war, and finally leads to a grand exodus of 40,000 Loyalists aboard the mammoth transport. Sounds spectacular and hopefully isn't contradicted by anything when I get a copy of Han's Sword Worlds in my hands.

5. On the "20 years before Gram leaves". I've never been able to resolve all the conflicts between dates and dating systems used through Traveller products (a.i. MT has some issues with others, etc). I've been using modern AD dating to gloss over some of these issues. It seems in different places you get a different conversion from 3rd Imp dating to AD. Others have interpreted my starting campaign date of 4090 AD as much closer to -420 Imperial then 20 years. I have a long list of both AD and Imperial dates from various published sources and my end result is a merge that didn't conflict too much with any one source. But yes, it leads to different versions of the exact date when converting to Imperial. This could be good though since my players might not know exactly when the civil war cometh. :smirk:

Thanks Slicer and Hans for the help, the high hurdle thrown before me seems a little shorter now.

 

[splicer]

Others have interpreted my starting campaign date of 4090 AD as much closer to -420 Imperial then 20 years.

You are correct and I was mistaken. GT:SW has a date conversion of 4000A.D. = um, well.. to avoid more spoilers we'll just say I used sleepy math.

 

[rancke]

1. I imagined, like Hans was suggesting, that the dton range of different classes of ships would be quite smaller then those used by the later, much larger, 3rd Imperium. I would have no problem calling the Kestrel a 5,000 ton Escort Destroyer instead of a Destroyer Escort if that fits well with Gurps SW.

I suggest that working out ship designs from the bottom up for a variety of ship classes at TL12 would give you a reasonable range of ships. Better yet, enlist half a dozen TCS enthusiasts and have them make up fleets for the OEU's chief rivals (Dingir League, Easter Concord, Vega, Near Bootes <Whatever>, maybe one or two to Trailing). That would give you the benchmarks that the OEU's fleet would have to match.

2. In retrospect, "Loyalists" actually fills in a gap for me. I have Expansionists vs. Isolationists in the OEU government leading up towards a civil war. Isolationists call themselves the "Prosperity Party". Isolationists is to Prosperity Party what Liberal is to Democratic Party. I didn't have a like name for Expansionists. So, Sword Worlds fills in a gap for me by making Expansionists to Loyalist Party similar to Conservatism to Republican Party (sorry if not US, used the references I know).

I simply needed names for the two sides of a civil war. The names I came up with are the ones each side used for itself. Beyond the fact that the losers were trying to invade Chernozem when the fit hit the shan, I have no idea about how the conflict arose or was resolved.

5. On the "20 years before Gram leaves". I've never been able to resolve all the conflicts between dates and dating systems used through Traveller products (a.i. MT has some issues with others, etc). I've been using modern AD dating to gloss over some of these issues. It seems in different places you get a different conversion from 3rd Imp dating to AD.

You do. So Jon Zeigler, Constantine Thomas, and I spent quite a lot of effort on straightening them out. We selected one of the few authoritative dates that contained not only year but also day and month (292-950 Imperial (13 March 5471 Terran), the date Margaret chose for decreeing the reintegration of the Solomani Sphere into the Imperium. The reason why we chose that date instead of, say, 001-0000, is that I overlooked that one when I searched for suitable dates) and calculated everything from that single date. Thus everything you'll find in GT (barring mistakes ) will be internally consistent. Hopefully future authors will cleave to the same standard.

For more information, see here: http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Date_Conversion


Hans

 

[rancke]

Sturn, I've been trying to figure out a solution to your problem, and it seems to me that it's essentially insoluble because you're trying to achieve two mutually incompatible goals.

You're trying to make your campaign essentially "small ship" (though from what I've seen it's more like "medium ship") while at the same time remain faithful to the OTU. But the OTU is a large ship universe. At TL12 the largest ship you can theoretically build is 900,000 T. The only way you're going to get a small ship campaign is to set your campaign in a time and place where planetary populations are in millions and tens of millions instead of billions and tens of billions (The Sword Worlds during the Five States Era might suit ).

What's the population of Old Earth? Say, 6 billions? At TL12, that'll give you a GPP of around MCr100,000,000. If the naval budget is 1% of that (a very low figure for a state with several nearby rivals), Old Earth alone can support 550 30,000 warships. So it seems to me that you'd really want a few squadrons of 100,000 T ships to soak up some of that budget. YMMV, of course.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Sturn,

In addition to Han's several excellent points and observations, may I suggest that you not perpetuate the all too common and wholly faulty assumption that size equates class in warships?

It's a natural misconception that has unfortunately been repeated for years across the 'Net and one that has no basis in naval history. It is a ship's mission or role that determines it's class, nothing more.

The equipment and capabilities any ship needs to fulfill it's mission or role will effect that ship's size. After all, spinal mount or large gun battery demand a certain volume, so size does come into play. However, because size is effected at one remove, it is only weakly linked to class and is rather poor predictor of class.

In the 1890s, Britain built the Powerful class of cruisers that were larger than any battleships afloat, including those in the RN. Why were they so big? The cruisers' mission required a certain speed and endurance, so their engineering plants and coal bunkers were relatively huge. Before you think that was an exception, the Lion-class battlecruisers built by Britain just before WW1 were larger than the Orion-class dreadnoughts being built by Britain at the same time. Why? Again, because of the capabilities demanded by the battlecrusiers' mission.

Spinning a Traveller example here, the jump rating, jump fuel, maneuver rating, and linked power plant requirements demanded by a high-jump, high-gee, highly agile frontier cruiser could very well mean that that cruiser is larger than a battleship.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Sturn]

What's the population of Old Earth? Say, 6 billions? At TL12, that'll give you a GPP of around MCr100,000,000. If the naval budget is 1% of that (a very low figure for a state with several nearby rivals), Old Earth alone can support 550 30,000 warships. So it seems to me that you'd really want a few squadrons of 100,000 T ships to soak up some of that budget. YMMV, of course.

Hans

Not knowing of any others, I did some math recently using very rough figures from Trillion Credit Squadron - 500 credits per person for a budget and every trillion credits amounting to approximately 1 million dtons. The result was in the ballpark for the Naval and Scout fleets I came up for the OEU (details below). It was nowhere near the figures you stated above. Where did you get those from? Do I have a very large error in my computations or are we using two different sources?

My math from Trillion Credit Squadron: Around 15 billion total population for OEU at 500 credits each = 7.5 trillion budget. 7.5 trillion budget translated very roughly to 7.5 million dtons. Adding up my fleet, I came up with a figure close to 3 million dtons, a little less then half. Since Trillion Credit Squadron was based upon rates for the TL 15 3rd Imperium, I had no problem imagining a less then 10-world TL 11ish pocket empire would be around half that rate. It leaves room for a large, almost military-organized OEU merchant marine and room in the budget for an even larger fleet if the two factions in the government would just get along.

I simply needed names for the two sides of a civil war. The names I came up with are the ones each side used for itself. Beyond the fact that the losers were trying to invade Chernozem when the fit hit the shan, I have no idea about how the conflict arose or was resolved.

Hans

Another wrench that fits nicely. From my possible storyline, new large J3-capable ships are being built. One side is hoping to use them for further expansion. The other side doesn't wish to expand. The Near Bootes Cluster (soon to be the Near Bootean League due to OEU aggression) has turned down any attempts at peaceful expansion when the OEU contacted them through a J2 route. Chernozem is on the flank of the Near Bootes Cluster and a very short hop from the OEU when using the new J3 ships. :smirk: Fits nicely.

But oh, you said "names". I was using "Prosperity Party" for the other half. My Gurps: Sword World book is still in the mail and I can't find anywhere to buy a PDF for it. I can easily change a name to keep things consistent.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[Sturn]

In addition to Han's several excellent points and observations, may I suggest that you not perpetuate the all too common and wholly faulty assumption that size equates class in warships?

Below is a lengthly blurb copy and pasted from a rough draft section on my Old Earth Union Navy that was recently updated after discussion here. I had previously looked over the ship classes (or types) listed in Fighting Ships, looked at example ships in Traveller sources (that may times contradicted themselves), and modern examples:

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The Union Navy contains over XXX capital ships and XXX's of smaller craft. The following ship classes are currently in common use as of 4090 AD:[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Heavy Cruiser: The largest capital ships at 10,000 tons or more. Most are combat ships which are called Battlecruisers. Sometimes Battlecruisers are referred to as Battleships. Other Heavy Cruisers in the Union include a Heavy Scout Cruiser and plans for a Heavy Transport Cruiser. Since the term Cruiser is most often used to describe combat vessels, the Heavy Transport Cruiser is usually just referred to as a Heavy Transport.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Light Cruiser: Between 5,000 and 10,000 tons. Light Cruisers tend to be quicker then their more heavily armed and armored brothers. Most combat Light Cruisers are used in a quick strike, raiding, or escort role.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Destroyer: The smallest of the capital ships at 2,000 tons to 5,000 tons are the Destroyers. They are used in a variety of roles including convoy escort and raiding. Destroyers are sometimes referred to as “Escort” ships, but this is only a role some Destroyers play, and not restricted to this class.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Frigate: Frigates are the largest of non-capital ships which are typically near 1,000 tons. Frigates are a very general purpose craft, the “work horse” of the Navy which can be found serving many varied roles.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Corvette: Fast attack craft under 1,000 tons, but at a minimum around 500 tons. Corvettes are used for speed, whether in a defensive picket harassing enemy ships or as part of a raid.[/FONT]

I also have this in a "shadow box" that I use for design notes and such:

Terran Dawn Ship Classes vs. the 3rd Imperium

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The classes listed above vary somewhat from the types listed for the 3rd Imperium. While researching, the author discovered that class names of ships and their size ranges changed greatly in only a few hundred years of naval warfare on real-life Earth. Classifications would likely change over the vast time-line of Traveller. The size of a 3rd Imperium Cruiser built at TL 15 would likely be far greater then a Cruiser built by a fledgling pocket empire nearing TL 12. The class of Escort later found in the 3rd Imperium was dropped for Corvette and Frigate to add some flavor and add to era differentiation. Escort was relegated to a role, not a class, which is quite realistic when considering how the term was first used.[/FONT]

 

[rancke]

Not knowing of any others, I did some math recently using very rough figures from Trillion Credit Squadron - 500 credits per person for a budget and every trillion credits amounting to approximately 1 million dtons. The result was in the ballpark for the Naval and Scout fleets I came up for the OEU (details below). It was nowhere near the figures you stated above. Where did you get those from? Do I have a very large error in my computations or are we using two different sources?

I'm using Striker's figure of a per capita income of Cr16,000 at TL12 (this assumes Old Earth is not Industrial -- if it is, the figure is 40% higher).

My math from Trillion Credit Squadron: Around 15 billion total population for OEU at 500 credits each = 7.5 trillion budget. 7.5 trillion budget translated very roughly to 7.5 million dtons. Adding up my fleet, I came up with a figure close to 3 million dtons, a little less then half.

A budget of 7.5 trillion credits will maintain a fleet of 75 trillion credits. TCr75 = BCr75,000 = MCr75,000,000. According to FS, a Gionetti class cruiser (30,000 T) costs MCr18,306. So you could maintain about 4,000 of them at the budget you're talking about.

You seem to've overlooked that a ship only costs 10% of its price per year to maintain.

Since Trillion Credit Squadron was based upon rates for the TL 15 3rd Imperium, I had no problem imagining a less then 10-world TL 11ish pocket empire would be around half that rate.

TCS bases prices and income on the same TL. Ie. a TL15 world gets 500 TL15 credits and a TL12 world gets 500 TL12 credits. It balances out. It would only matter if the TL12 world was buying TL15 ships.

In any case, TCS's Cr500/person is a gross simplification that ignores things like trade classifications. It does give results in the same ballpark as Striker, though. For instance, Cr500 is 3.125% of an income of Cr16,000.

Another wrench that fits nicely. From my possible storyline, new large J3-capable ships are being built.

Yeah... I haven't commented on that so far, but I really don't see why an interstellar power that has been surrounded by rivals of comparable power for all its existence would ever lose TL12 capability in the first place. I know Vland and Sylea lost technology, because canon says so, but it seems to me that usually you'd either lose interstellar capability entirely or not at all. IMO Vland and Sylea must be exceptions rather than the norm. But here we're far into opinion country. All I can do is point out that in all the (admittedly very few) periods we know about Terra and/or Dingir have retained TL12.


Hans