Terran Dawn Campaign Guide [Progress, Questions]

[Sturn]

[Edit- Added a couple more paragraphs instead of making another post]​

You seem to've overlooked that a ship only costs 10% of its price per year to maintain.

I didn't overlook it, just didn't look it at all. I kept it simple by just looking at what Trillion Credit Squadron gave me (500 credits per person, 1 million dtons per 1 trillion credits). I may have to pump up the number of ships in my squadrons or add a few more squadrons per fleet. I like the actual Fleet organization I already have and don't wish to mess with (3 Navy Line Fleets and 3 Navy Reserve Fleets in addition to a Scout Corps). Fits well when placing HQ's and such for an under 10 system pocket empire with some worlds that are just outposts.

I'll have to take a look at Striker. I hadn't planned on actually working on a level of detail that gave me a budget for the OEU. But, it might be fun. I was just hoping for a smaller fleet (numbers and ship size) that was somewhat realistic in the Traveller universe.

Traveller canon (iirc) had a Numbered and Reserve fleet per Subsector. The Old Earth Union is around subsector size. That is only two fleets in comparison to the 6 fleets I had created for the OEU, which of course would not have the same dtons of the future TL 15 3rd Imperium fleets.

A possible fix that I had overlooked and was going to add are the local defense squadrons. Defense boats, fighters, etc. that are not part of the patroling fleet but stay-at-home forces still under Naval command. This could add a sizeable chunk to my spending.

TCS bases prices and income on the same TL. Ie. a TL15 world gets 500 TL15 credits and a TL12 world gets 500 TL12 credits. It balances out. It would only matter if the TL12 world was buying TL15 ships.

Thanks, I didn't realize this.

Yeah... I haven't commented on that so far, but I really don't see why an interstellar power that has been surrounded by rivals of comparable power for all its existence would ever lose TL12 capability in the first place. I know Vland and Sylea lost technology.......

There was some prior discussion on this. Perhaps it was on a different board? Economically Terra would have taken a huge hit during the Long Night. When outside markets for Terran goods (a cultural capital and major industrial world of the 2nd Imperium) disappeared, I reasoned that a depression or at least recession would have set in. Perhaps the "expensive" TL 12 industries would have withered until the end of the Long Night when Terra, IMTU, regained TL12 after slipping to TL11.

Here is one of my other "gray box" blurbs from my Terran Dawn history PDF:

Faltering Technology​

Terra and several other worlds of the 2nd Imperium began the Long Night at Tech Level 12. The Long Night did not strike the Rim as hard as the rest of the 2nd Imperium, but technology levels still faltered. Terra, for example, dropped to TL 11 during the Long Night and is just now creeping back to TL 12. But, why?

Economic recession, smaller markets due to faltering trade, and ever-increasing price tags for the latest technology.​

Take for example a farmer on Terra during the beginning of the Long Night. His ancestors had used Grav Tractors to farm the fields. When the tractor broke down, he faced the decision of ordering a very expensive grav module. Prices on the latest grav modules had sky-rocketed in the last few decades due to economic recession and dwindling markets.​

Or, the farmer could replace his grandad's Grav Tractor with a simpler wheeled version, that was greatly cheaper.​

Over hundreds of years, markets for the latest, highest technology items dried up. Manufacturing of these TL 12 items fell victim to the law of supply and demand. With shrinking demand, eventually it became economically unfeasible to manufacture the latest technology and Terra dropped to TL 11.​

I didn't like Terra keeping TL 12 while other major worlds (Vilani, Sylea) didn't. If Terra had kept so much of it's base, why didn't it rise out of the ashes long before Sylea did? One explanation was the political environment of the Solomani Rim (several splintered pocket empires), but this was pretty much the same environment Sylea came out of. Knocking out J3 until towards the end of the Long Night solved many issues for me and made the Solomani Rim politics and "they didn't trade much" canon more sensible.​

Some might also counter-argue simply, the other major worlds of the 2nd Imperium dropped in TL, why didn't Terra? Yes I could come up with sensible reasons to explain Terra keeping its entire TL while others of the 2nd Imperium dropped several levels. But, I wasn't working towards that end. I actually wanted Terra to drop a TL. It did great things to the Solomani Rim map when J3 was lost (lots of walls and passages ). Canon dropped many worlds several TL's during the Long Night. Its comment on the Solomani Rim was that it basically "wasn't hit as hard", which also means "it was hit". I thus dropped Terra a single TL which was minor to what happened to other major worlds.​

 

[rancke]

I'll have to take a look at Striker. I hadn't planned out actually working on a level of detail that gave me a budget for the OEU. But, it might be fun. I was just hoping for a smaller fleet (numbers and ship size) that wsa somewhat realistic in the Traveller universe.

Realistically, a billion people can afford a lot of starships. And the smaller those starships are, the more of them they can afford.

A possible fix that I had overlooked and was going to add are the local defense squadrons. Defense boats, fighters, etc. that are not part of the patroling fleet but stay-at-home forces still under Naval command. This could add a sizeable chunk to my spending.

Sure. Planetary defenses will soak up a lot. I was just trying to give you a sense of the proportions involved.

Economically Terra would have taken a huge hit during the Long Night. When outside markets for Terran goods (a cultural capital and industrial world of the 2nd Imperium) disappeared, I reasoned that a depression or at least recession would have set in.

Quite possibly. But that was more than a thousand years earlier, as far back as the Vikings are from us. And it would affect the number of ships, not the kind. Especially for a place like Terra, which needs jump-3 for efficient communication with the trading partners that remained (There are several high-population worlds in the Dingir subsector alone).

Perhaps the "expensive" TL 12 industries would have withered until the end of the Long Night when Terra, IMTU, regained TL12 after slipping to TL11.

One of the points that have been made is that the whole concept of the Long Night is a Imperium-centric concept. The Long Night wasn't nearly as dark as the Imperium likes to paint it. You have pocket empires all over the place.

I didn't like Terra keeping TL 12 while other major worlds (Vilani, Sylea) didn't. If Terra had kept so much of it's base, why didn't it rise out of the ashes long before Sylea did?

Because it didn't. It's a historical accident. You only lose technology for one of two reasons: 1) Barbarians (inner or outer) smash your infrastructure and destroy your knowledge base, and 2) You stop using it. #1 didn't happen, and there's no good reason why anyone on Terra, Dingir, Muan Gwi, Easter, etc. would stop using it (And if they did, they wouldn't lose the knowledge). The odd part of the picture is, IMO, Vland and Sylea losing anything.

Edit: One difference between Sylea and Vland on the one hand and the pocket empires of the Rim on the other appears to be that for a considerable time Sylea and Vland didn't have any intersterstellar rivals at all. I don't realy think that the absence of rivals is a good enough reason to explain technological regression, but I do feel, very strongly, that the presence of rivals is a very good reason to NOT regress.


Hans

 

[rancke]

...I had no problem imagining a less then 10-world TL 11ish pocket empire would be around half that rate....

The Old Earth Union had 17 members and bases on three other worlds (all jump-3 from Terra).

http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Earth_Union


Of course, the real point is the population size of those worlds.


Hans

 

[Sturn]

Sure. Planetary defenses will soak up a lot. I was just trying to give you a sense of the proportions involved.

This could be a savior for me. I would imagine Terra itself would not have just wings of fighters and small defense boat squadrons, but might have mammoth jumpless ships for defense on par with the size of the largest cruisers.

.....Especially for a place like Terra, which needs jump-3 for efficient communication with the trading partners that remained (There are several high-population worlds in the Dingir subsector alone).

Canon points out that there wasn't much in the way of trading (if any at all) between the pocket empires of the Solomani Rim during the Long Night. There is a statement about Sylean Scouts of the rising 3rd Imperium coming to the Solomani Rim and helping the pocket empires begin trading amongst themselves again. One of my problems was, if J3 was common in the Solomani Rim through the Long Night, why the heck didn't they trade much or at all when they were right next door? This was yet another reason for me to want a drop to TL 11 and led me to expand on other reasons for lack of communication and trade (Dingir-Terra rivalry, civil war in the OEU putting an end to expansion and trade). In my Terran Dawn, Terra is on the verge of TL 12 (has prototype J3's, fusion guns, etc), and is attempting to expand. The civil war is the thorn that will put an end to this and help explain why Sylea became the center of the 3rd Imperium, not Terra. It adds a grandness to the campaign and makes your(?) OEU civil war an important historical event.

 

[Sturn]

The Old Earth Union had 17 members and bases on three other worlds (all jump-3 from Terra).

http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Earth_Union


Of course, the real point is the population size of those worlds.


Hans

I mispoke when I said under 10, I completely based my map on the above which does contain these worlds. Terra is completely dominant in population over the other worlds.

I also considered this quote from your excellent TravWiki site (one of my best sources) that is in your link above: "Fleet bases were also maintained at Aggida, Markhashi, and Meshan - all within jump-3 of Terra -- but these systems were not considered part of the Union proper. Aggida was a balkanized world and thus unable to send representatives to the Union Council, and both Markhashi and Mendam had been abandoned during the recession that followed the fall of the Rim Province in -1690."

The bolded parts could also be used as indicators that jump-3 was indeed lost during the recession. It doesn't explicity state this of course, just goes hand-in-hand with what I was saying below about using recession to explain a drop from TL 12 to TL 11.

I would agree that the Terran Mercantile Community, later OEU, was at TL 12. The OEU lasted a long time though so it was helpful for my campaign to have it drop to TL 11 for a period before rising back to TL 12 again.

 

[rancke]

BTW, according to my calculations, 001-0420 PI corresponds to April 23rd 4101 (Revised Gregorian) or April 22nd 4101 (Gregorian).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Canon points out that there wasn't much in the way of trading (if any at all) between the pocket empires of the Solomani Rim during the Long Night. There is a statement about Sylean Scouts of the rising 3rd Imperium coming to the Solomani Rim and helping the pocket empires begin trading amongst themselves again.

Because they couldn't figure out how to do that themselves? Canon also mentions that the OEU was sufficiently in contact with the pocket empires of Magyar to get actively involved with the Aslan Border Wars. Maybe that statement is a little biased in favor of the Sylean Scouts?

One of my problems was, if J3 was common in the Solomani Rim through the Long Night, why the heck didn't they trade much or at all when they were right next door?

I'd say that they did. Really, it makes absolutely no sense that they'd stop trading for an entire millenium or more. Pirates may have made the spaceways unsafe around -1500, but pirates are parasites. No merchants, no pirates. So if pirates makes trade impossible in -1500, trade will be possible again by -1480. Besides, no pirates are going to stop Terra from trading with Dingir.

This was yet another reason for me to want a drop to TL 11 and led me to expand on other reasons for lack of communication and trade (Dingir-Terra rivalry, civil war in the OEU putting an end to expansion and trade).

to sum up what I said before, if Terra trades with Dingir, it can use jump-3. If it's at war with Dingir, it needs TL12.



Hans

 

[Sturn]

BTW, according to my calculations, 001-0420 PI corresponds to April 23rd 4101 (Revised Gregorian) or April 22nd 4101 (Gregorian).


Hans

Hey be quiet! Future players might be listening.

 

[Sturn]

Canon also mentions that the OEU was sufficiently in contact with the pocket empires of Magyar to get actively involved with the Aslan Border Wars.

I've never come upon this at all, which would make the fledgling OEU unbelievably far ranging. Magyar is past the Dingir League and past pirate infested areas depending on the exact dating. Could you point me to where you found this? Perhaps this was the much earlier in the Long Night TMC/OEU that the Rim fleet was turned over to? As in before Terra pulled in its borders to its old colonies of the small OEU?

I'd say that they did. Really, it makes absolutely no sense that they'd stop trading for an entire millenium or more.

I agree its unbelievable, but this would go against what was stated in some published sources so I didn't want to contradict it. If I had large open borders with active trading going on between Terra and Dingir, someone else would have popped in and said I was contradicting canon. It isn't just the Sylean Scouts statement about spurring trade, there are some other statements out there that limits trade and contact in the Solomani Rim during the Long Night.

to sum up what I said before, if Terra trades with Dingir, it can use jump-3. If it's at war with Dingir, it needs TL12.

Even though in my campaign Terra is not actively trading with Dingir, it could do so easily with Jump 2 (two J2 routes from Terra to Dingir). My Terra does actually have Jump 3, they are just rare and expensive prototypes built by the government currently. If you meant Dingir is TL 12, I have the League dropping to TL 11 also during the Long Night. The Solomani Rim was at TL 12 as part of the Rule of Man, dropping to TL 11 during the Long Night in my campaign guide (that is not canon at all, just trying not to contradict anything in case others want to use it). As I've said TL 11 helps with the unbelievable "no trade" statement by creating large J3 gaps (such as one cutting off Easter and Vega from the OEU after they drop to TL 11).

 

[Sturn]

Here is a low-quality version of my Old Earth Union map for "The Old Earth" pocket guide I'm currently working on (needs a few updates). This is in a time period after Meshan and Markhashi were abandoned. I included Aggida within the drawn borders, even though it's not a voting member. Even though it's not a full member, I still considered it a territory or colony and so included it within the border.
[EDIT: Added another link below this map to a sector one showing pocket empires and J3 gaps].

If you zoom in on this map (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/images/6366/1_sector_history50.jpg), you can see the various jump 3 gaps (the dotted lines) and why I really, really wanted J3 to be rare. It creates a fun sector map.

 

[rancke]

I also considered this quote from your excellent TravWiki site (one of my best sources) that is in your link above: "Fleet bases were also maintained at Aggida, Markhashi, and Meshan - all within jump-3 of Terra -- but these systems were not considered part of the Union proper. Aggida was a balkanized world and thus unable to send representatives to the Union Council, and both Markhashi and Mendam had been abandoned during the recession that followed the fall of the Rim Province in -1690."

I'm not saying there wasn't a recession. I'm saying there's no good reason why a recession would cause technological regression. TL12 is more efficient, and thus cheaper, than TL11. A recession might cause nine out of ten factories to close, but the tenth that stayed open would still be TL12 -- especially on a world that has been solid TL12 for two millenia. If any TL11 equipment was being manufactured on Terra at the time, it's a safe bet that it was being manufactured with TL12 machines.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I've never come upon this at all, which would make the fledgling OEU unbelievably far ranging. Magyar is past the Dingir League and past pirate infested areas depending on the exact dating. Could you point me to where you found this?

It's in Cats&Rats. I'll see if I can dig up some quotes.

You could say the same thing about the China Trade during the Age of Sail. Unbelievably far from Europe and past pirate-infested waters. The thing is, trade isn't either or. There's luxury trade and there's bulk trade and there's a multitude of degrees in between. Quite possibly the Sylean Scouts brokered some deals that hadn't been considered profitable before. But that they opened up trade between those pocket empires sounds like self-serving braggadocio.

And you don't have pirates unless you have merchants.

Perhaps this was the much earlier in the Long Night TMC/OEU that the Rim fleet was turned over to? As in before Terra pulled in its borders to its old colonies of the small OEU?

It has to be after the Aslan Border Wars start. It could be after -420, of course; but it sounds most unlikely that it isn't before the Sylean Scouts show up.

I agree its unbelievable, but this would go against what was stated in some published sources so I didn't want to contradict it. If I had large open borders with active trading going on between Terra and Dingir, someone else would have popped in and said I was contradicting canon. It isn't just the Sylean Scouts statement about spurring trade, there are some other statements out there that limits trade and contact in the Solomani Rim during the Long Night.

Limits is not the same thing as complete absence. You (generic you) could easily reconcile that statement (where is it from, BTW?) with a reasonable amount of luxury trade prior to the Big Brotherly Scouts showed up and Set Things Straight for the Poor Benighted Pocket Empires of the Rim.

Even though in my campaign Terra is not actively trading with Dingir, it could do so easily with Jump 2 (two J2 routes from Terra to Dingir).

Jump-2 trade between Terra and Dingir is more than twice as expensive as jump-3 trade. I'm not saying you can't trade with just jump-2. I'm saying that if you have jump-3 and is trading with Dingir, you have one bonzer incentive to hang on to jump-3 instead of switching to jump-2.

My Terra does actually have Jump 3, they are just rare and expensive prototypes built by the government currently. If you meant Dingir is TL 12, I have the League dropping to TL 11 also during the Long Night.

I imagine you would. And Vega dropped to TL 11 too, right, and the Easter Concord and the Near Bootes worlds, and everybody else around. My objection is that IMO there's no good reason for ANY of them to lose TL12, and very good reasons (to wit, each other) to keep it.


Hans

 

[Sturn]

I imagine you would. And Vega dropped to TL 11 too, right, and the Easter Concord and the Near Bootes worlds, and everybody else around. My objection is that IMO there's no good reason for ANY of them to lose TL12, and very good reasons (to wit, each other) to keep it.

Easter 11 yes, Bootes and Vega 10 if I recall correctly.

Couldn't you use this same argument for the entire 2nd Imperium that fell into the Long Night? I mean this is Traveller, and the Long Night is supposed to have been a very bad thing. You could argue that all of the pocket empires throughout the Long Night kept TL 12 because there was a good reason to keep that better quality stuff around. But, if the Long Night doesn't hurt TL's by even one level around the Rim (which is all I did), then it begins to no longer be the Long Night of Traveller. I don't think the definition of the Long Night accepted by most Traveller fans is it was just a long period of economic recession with a bunch of pocket empires that didn't falter in technology even one level because there was no good reason to lose it?



My campaign is set during the Long Night.....

"It was a period where worlds were cut off from one another, technology was lost and the population on many worlds simply failed to survive." - TravWiki

"Some worlds banded together in pocket empires, mere shadows of the former glory that was the 1st Imperium" (which was TL 11-12 at its height) - Classic Traveller

"Interstellar trade ceased in most areas" - Classic Traveller

"Most worlds lost technology to construct starships" (TL 9) - Classic Traveller


....in the Solomani Rim...


"The Solomani Rim suffered less then most areas. The (pocket empires) survived by trading within themselves..." (note only "less" then the horrors listed above, not "none" of these horrors) - Classic Traveller

I don't think I'm stretching anything at all within the Solomani Rim to have only pockets of trade and the maximum TL dropped a single level during the Long Night. If anything I didn't go far enough.

EDIT: I agree with you Hans that much about the Long Night as is doesn't seem plausible. But this is a Traveller campaign guide I'm working on and I'm not for altering canon, especially CT. Oh and thanks for the input (really) it makes my campaign guide only stronger by suffering through criticisms.

 

[rancke]

Just to be clear, Sturn, I'm merely defending an opinion here, not laying down the letter of the law. I wouldn't want you to think I'm laying down the letter of the law (In this particular instance ).

Couldn't you use this same argument for the entire 2nd Imperium that fell into the Long Night? I mean this is Traveller, and the Long Night is supposed to have been a very bad thing.

I think you could say that losing 90 or 99% of all trade with the rest of the galaxy would be plenty bad in itself.

You could argue that all of the pocket empires throughout the Long Night kept TL 12 because there was a good reason to keep that better quality stuff around. But, if the Long Night doesn't hurt TL's by even one level around the Rim (which is all I did), then it begins to no longer be the Long Night of Traveller.

Why not? You're mixing up quality and quantity here. Loss of trade would hurt a lot of worlds a lot worse than it hit those few worlds that survived unscathed throughout the whole period. Some worlds undoubtedly regressed technologically all the way down to pre-Stellar and only slowly recovered. My point is that Vland and Sylea to the contrary notwithstanding, those that didn't decivilize really shouldn't lose what technology they already had. Give me a world that was conquered and pillaged by reavers, and I'll agree that it's perfectly reasonable that it had regressed technologically. Give me one that philosophically turned its back entirely on the universe and I'll agree that it might have lost all interstellar capability (though there would be no reason why it'd lose other technologies too). Give me a world with medium population that got cut off from trade and I'm sure it would lose its technology because it really didn't have it in the first place. But those pocket empire kernels are the worlds that didn't get overrun, did have the population and the infrastructure, that didn't lose interstellar capability.

I don't think the definition of the Long Night accepted by most Traveller fans is it was just a long period of economic recession with a bunch of pocket empires that didn't falter in technology even one level because there was no good reason to lose it?

Maybe not. It's the definition that makes the most sense to me, though. (Hey, everybody else! Feel free to jump in and agree with me or with Sturn!)

"It was a period where worlds were cut off from one another, technology was lost and the population on many worlds simply failed to survive." - TravWiki

TravWiki hopefully got that quote from somewhere . Yes, worlds were cut off from each other and the population of many worlds simply failed to survive. But the worlds of the various pocket empires wouldn't be included in that number.

"Some worlds banded together in pocket empires, mere shadows of the former glory that was the 1st Imperium" (which was TL 11-12 at its height) - Classic Traveller

The 1st Imperium was also 15,000 worlds in 10,000 systems (or something like that). Wouldn't you say that 12 or 17 systems constituted a mere shadow of that?

"Interstellar trade ceased in most areas" - Classic Traveller

We've talked about that. Besides, most isn't all.

"Most worlds lost technology to construct starships" (TL 9) - Classic Traveller

Right. In the Solomani Rim only a handful kept the technology. The rest lost it.

"The Solomani Rim suffered less then most areas. The (pocket empires) survived by trading within themselves..." (note only "less" then the horrors listed above, not "none" of these horrors) - Classic Traveller

I don't think you'd say that England survived by trading with India and China, but it sure did trade. The trade that I think would remain/resurface would be luxury trade.

I don't think I'm stretching anything at all within the Solomani Rim to have only pockets of trade and the maximum TL dropped a single level during the Long Night. If anything I didn't go far enough.

As I said, it's an opinion I'm expressing.


Hans

 

[splicer]

My Cr0.02, I think one can postulate that a temporary drop in TL by the Terrans, followed by an eventual rise, occured in this way:

During the excitement of the Rule of Man, the Terrans neglected some parts of their tech base, which were closer to home, in favor of new trading partners farther afield. During the Long Night, they became cut off from the newer sources and had to rebuild their infrastructure closer to home again. Recession slowed this process. The TL 12 knowledge wasn't lost, but reliance on outsourcing meant that when the planet which was the source of widget components (A) was smashed by it's neighbor, the planet which was the source of raw materials (B) succumbed to a barbarian revolution, and the planet which was the source of skilled technicians (C) was suddenly the province of an enemy polity, the factories were low on resources A,B, & C for the TL 12 finished products. The Expansionists and Isolationists have different ideas about what needs to be done to regain TL 12 and progress beyond. The former engage in foreign adventures to secure new resources while the latter attempt to rebuild the independent infrastructure that Terra & Co. started out with in the first place. Everyone believes they are doing the Right Thing.

Maybe. This doesn't take into account the fact that the resources weren't all lost overnight, but faulty decisions along the way (such as a stubborn refusal to believe the party was over, for instance) could fill in some gaps. Anyway, just some speculative speculating.

 

[Sturn]

Just to be clear, Sturn, I'm merely defending an opinion here, not laying down the letter of the law. I wouldn't want you to think I'm laying down the letter of the law (In this particular instance ).

Completely understood, the reason I added a note that I was actually appreciating the criticism even if we were debating over certain points.

Some worlds undoubtedly regressed technologically all the way down to pre-Stellar and only slowly recovered. My point is that Vland and Sylea to the contrary notwithstanding, those that didn't decivilize really shouldn't lose what technology they already had.

MT Referee's Companion pg. 34 has Sylea "maintaining" TL 10 at the start of the Long Night, recovering to TL 11 at the founding of the Sylean Federation (-650), then finally recapturing TL 12 just before founding the 3rd Imperium. It's these kind of canon references (that I agree do not seem very realistic without some other catalyst) that justified me dropping Terra to TL 11 during the Long Night. Terra was the center of a pocket empire like Sylea that weathered the storm. Even so, Sylea dropped a couple TL's, Terra only one.

(Rancke's post below editted by Sturn to reduce it's size)

...a world that was conquered and pillaged by reavers.....
...one that philosophically turned its back entirely on the universe....
...a world with medium population that got cut off from trade...
...and I'll agree that it might have lost all interstellar capability...

.....But those pocket empire kernels are the worlds that didn't get overrun, did have the population and the infrastructure, that didn't lose interstellar capability...

I completey agree with you on these. But, my intention is to go with canon first even if it's non-sensical.

During the excitement of the Rule of Man, the Terrans neglected some parts of their tech base, which were closer to home, in favor of new trading partners farther afield. During the Long Night, they became cut off from the newer sources and had to rebuild their infrastructure closer to home again. Recession slowed this process. The TL 12 knowledge wasn't lost, but reliance on outsourcing meant that when the planet which was the source of widget components (A) was smashed by it's neighbor, the planet which was the source of raw materials (B) succumbed to a barbarian revolution, and the planet which was the source of skilled technicians (C) was suddenly the province of an enemy polity, the factories were low on resources A,B, & C for the TL 12 finished products.

Can I pilfer this? An example based upon this would go hand-in-hand in my History or Gazetteer chapter alongside my "grav tractor" example below. I would give you credit.

 

[rancke]

During the excitement of the Rule of Man, the Terrans neglected some parts of their tech base, which were closer to home, in favor of new trading partners farther afield. During the Long Night, they became cut off from the newer sources and had to rebuild their infrastructure closer to home again. Recession slowed this process. The TL 12 knowledge wasn't lost, but reliance on outsourcing meant that when the planet which was the source of widget components (A) was smashed by it's neighbor, the planet which was the source of raw materials (B) succumbed to a barbarian revolution, and the planet which was the source of skilled technicians (C) was suddenly the province of an enemy polity, the factories were low on resources A,B, & C for the TL 12 finished products.

First of all, this assumes that Terra relied on entirely on imports to support an infrastructure of six (or however many) billion people. It also assumes that although Terra was unable to muster the resources and skilled technicians to maintain an established TL12 infrastructure, it did have the resources and skilled technicians to replace it with an entirely new TL11 infrastructure. What, the Society of Creative Anachronism had enough skilled TL11 technicians to pitch in?

There are several ways to lose a lot of tech levels relatively fast. Relying on outside supplies that are cut off is one of them. But how do you lose just one tech level? The only way I can see that happening is for the world to lose all its infrastructure, tumbling it down to subsistence farming and cottage manufacture, then slowly build the tools to build the tools to work its way back up to a level below where they used to be (At which point, of course, they're going to go on building the tools to build themselves back up to where they were originally).

Think about our Earth today. We all know about ways to bring it back down to TL 3 or 4, but what scenario can you come up with that would bring it back down to TL6?

The Expansionists and Isolationists have different ideas about what needs to be done to regain TL 12 and progress beyond.

That's the next point. Timing. This decline you're talking about takes place around -1500. That's a thousand years before the period Sturn is talking about. Even if, somehow, Terra is brought down to TL 11, why in the Universe would it stay there? The knowledge isn't lost, and it would be an unbelievably big coincidence if every other -- I'm going to coin the tern 'backbone world' to denote the worlds that become the backbones of pocket empires -- backbone world in the vincinity were also reduced to TL11.

But let's say they were. Now you have the military after you to get your military-industrial capacity up to TL12 before one of those neighbors gets there. They're just not going to be satisfied with their Factor B meson guns when they know that it's possible to build Factor D meson guns. Or jump-2 when they know that jump-3 is possible. And you have the plans to build all that stuff right there in your archives. And you know that your rivals have plans of their own in their archives.

Losing just one TL is implausible. Everyone losing a TL at the same time is really implausible, and everyone losing a TL and just leaning back and going with the flow is really, really implausible.


Hans

 

[rancke]

MT Referee's Companion pg. 34 has Sylea "maintaining" TL 10 at the start of the Long Night, recovering to TL 11 at the founding of the Sylean Federation (-650), then finally recapturing TL 12 just before founding the 3rd Imperium. It's these kind of canon references (that I agree do not seem very realistic without some other catalyst) that justified me dropping Terra to TL 11 during the Long Night. Terra was the center of a pocket empire like Sylea that weathered the storm. Even so, Sylea dropped a couple TL's, Terra only one.

Canon is a tool, not holy writ. It's purpose is to preserve the self-consistency of the setting. To do that properly, you need to do two things: 1) Don't change it if it isn't broken; 2) DO change it if it IS broken.

I completey agree with you on these. But, my intention is to go with canon first even if it's non-sensical.

But you don't need to drop the TL of Terra and the other Rim empires to 11 in order to stick to canon. You're using canon to justify doing so, which is something entirely different. A corollary to the 'canon rules' I propounded above (for those of us who aren't in a position to change canon) would be "If it doesn't work, don't perpetuate it".


Hans

 

[splicer]

During the excitement of the Rule of Man, the Terrans....

Can I pilfer this? An example based upon this would go hand-in-hand in my History or Gazetteer chapter alongside my "grav tractor" example below. I would give you credit.

Sure, if you like. I wouldn't say something in a public forum with an expectation that it not be "pilfered" by anyone, credit or no. But as I acknowledged briefly in closing, and as Hans has pointed out in detail, the scenario has flaws. Heh, maybe I should say "No!" instead, to avoid another piece of faulty reasoning propagating through the Internet with my name attached to it.

Think about our Earth today. We all know about ways to bring it back down to TL 3 or 4, but what scenario can you come up with that would bring it back down to TL6?

The only thing I can come up with offhand is the automobile. If, somehow, a factory was cut off from supplies of advanced electronic components it might be able to gear down to produce cars without them but only at a TL 6 level of sophistication. Probably this argument is a little thin.

In any case...

This decline you're talking about takes place around -1500. That's a thousand years before the period Sturn is talking about. Even if, somehow, Terra is brought down to TL 11, why in the Universe would it stay there?

...that's where it all falls down, I agree. 1000 years is a really long time. That scenario might have some chance of being somewhat plausible on a shorter timescale, but a millennium requires other factors added to make it work. Adding other factors might fix things, or it might just make the whole thing way too clunky to be believable.

Honestly, Sturn, I find the more plausible scenario is one in which the Terrans didn't lose any TL during the Long Night. Or, at least, not for very long. They were advancing just fine by themselves before the Interstellar Wars and gained more after consolidating when faced with the need to fight a new enemy. So, to argue from the other side, being cut off from a wider region of space wouldn't really hurt them that much because they didn't rely on the furtherest worlds to get where they were to begin with. Square one (maybe I should say square two?) for them was the old Terran Confederation -- a more local area roughly analogous to the OEU. As I'm sure you're discovering, it's going to take a fair amount of mental exercise to make your scenario work. Not to burst your bubble or anything.

 

[splicer]

I suggest that working out ship designs from the bottom up for a variety of ship classes at TL12 would give you a reasonable range of ships. Better yet, enlist half a dozen TCS enthusiasts and have them make up fleets for the OEU's chief rivals (Dingir League, Easter Concord, Vega, Near Bootes <Whatever>, maybe one or two to Trailing). That would give you the benchmarks that the OEU's fleet would have to match.

This is very good advice. I would suggest adding T4: Pocket Empires to the mix for help in working out some out some of the other issues being discussed here.

Canon is a tool, not holy writ. It's purpose is to preserve the self-consistency of the setting. To do that properly, you need to do two things: 1) Don't change it if it isn't broken; 2) DO change it if it IS broken.

A corollary to the 'canon rules' I propounded above (for those of us who aren't in a position to change canon) would be "If it doesn't work, don't perpetuate it".

And this is the best advice of all. Sagely, in fact.