Terran Dawn Campaign Guide [Progress, Questions]

[Sturn]

A new question or two. Why did Sylea drop from TL 12 to TL 10? Why did it take Sylea so long to return to it's lost TL's? I'm drawing similarities here of course to my suggestion that Terra did in fact drop a TL (or two even). Canon explicity states Sylea "maintained" only TL 10, to later recover TL 12 at the end of the Long Night. In retrospect this is very similar to what I did with Terra (almost back to TL 12 from TL 11 or even 10 only a few hundred years from the end of the Long Night). If the answer is Sylea did not in fact drop to TL 10, then that isn't an answer I can accept since I don't want to contradict anything previously published. Whatever justifies Sylea's drop and slow recovery can help with the same happening to Terra.


On another note, here are some adjustments I'm going to be making to my Terran Dawn notes based on the helpful discussions here:

• Make it clear that the Rim Province and Terran Mercantile Community stayed in communication at the start of the Long Night (as stated in canon). Worlds that would have dropped farther in TL did not due to support from their neighbors. This helps explain similarities in how much TL's dropped in the Solomani Rim before it later fragmented into pocket empires (note that at the end of the Long Night in Terran Dawn, all of the pocket empires aren't TL 11 as may have been inferred in this discussion - some small/isolated ones are TL 9 and 10, and these stated TL's are the maximum's for the pockets, not the TL of every world).
• Increase the size of the OEU Navy in terms of number and size of ships. Alter some names and descriptions of ships to keep them in line with what I will find in Gurps Sword Worlds.
• Give Expansionists the official title of "Loyalist Party". Give Isolationists the official title of "XXX Party" (what I find in Gurps Sword Worlds).
• Reinforce the idea that Terra has now recovered from a long-lasting recession. Already stated in Terran Dawn, just make it more clear.
• Make it clear in the History chapter, that the Terran Mercantile Community was far-ranging, even trading with Magyar, before it became more isolated around 3320 AD. This is already somewhat clear in other sources, bring mine in line.
• Vastly increase the size of the OEU Army. Not discussed here, but this discussion spurned me to find a source in MT describing ground force sizes much larger then what I had for Terra.

Thanks Slicer and Rancke.

 

[Whipsnade]

Below is a lengthly blurb copy and pasted from a rough draft section on my Old Earth Union Navy that was recently updated after discussion here.

Sturn,

That's a nifty blurb, very well written like all that you've shared with us with nice descriptions.

The descriptions in that blurb are also completely backwards.

You're still fixated on tonnage and displacement when you should be focusing on mission and roles. Tonnage and displacement are only weakly linked to mission and role. You should first be listing the role each class fills and mentioning the tonnage range of each class much later.

A navy doesn't sit down and say We've X amount of MCr to spend so we'll build so many ships of this size, so many ships of that size, and so many ships of this other size as if they're ordering from the lunch menu at a chop suey palace.

Instead, a navy sits down and says We've X amount of MCr and these are the jobs we need to do as a navy. This is the equipment and capabilities are required to do those jobs. What sort of hulls do we need to build that can house that equipment, perform at that capability, and do that job?. Tonnage and displacement are a result of the design choices made to meet the ship's mission and are not some predetermined factor.

Envision a job, build the ship that can do the job, and then assign a class with regards to the job.

You've heavy cruisers right? What's the job they do? You've got them listed as the OEU's "heaviest capital ships" so, presumably, they're meant to meet and defeat a prospective enemy's heaviest capital ships. That means they aren't cruisers. They're SOLs, battleships, dreadnoughts, or whatever term you want to use, but they aren't cruisers.

Next are the light cruisers. Again, you've only the vaguest of roles for them. Like true cruisers, you say they are "quicker" then other cruisers but being "quicker" in Traveller - quicker in maneuver, jump, or agility - comes at a great cost in displacement. These light cruisers could very well be larger than their "heavy" counterparts due to fuel and engineering concerns and especially given the TL of the setting, just occurred in history with the Triumph and Lion classes I wrote about earlier.

You've then got destroyers listed as "capital" ships, something that's neither supported in history or Traveller. In Traveller, "capital ship" usually equates "spinal mount", but you won't be putting any spinals aboard ships in that displacement range.

The blurbs concerning "frigates" and "corvettes" are the least troublesome because in them you've correctly differentiated those two classes by the mission they perform and not by their size. In your OEU setting, frigates are multi-purpose patrollers while corvettes are fast attack craft.

Sit down and think about the missions and jobs the OEU navy needs to perform, next design ships to fill those missions and do those jobs at your setting's TL, and finally assign class names with only the jobs and missions in mind. Let tonnage and displacement be the least of your worries.

You might find it helpful to look over Ty Beard's Commonwealth setting. It has a similar TL to your setting and Ty built his navy in the many real navies get built. He determined the jobs, filled those jobs with designs, and then assigned classes rather than merely plugging ships into some artificially derived progressive tonnage grid. Because of that, Ty's navies seem much more "real".


Regards,
Bill

 

[Sturn]

Thanks Whipsnade.

That blurb is just a piece of a larger document. In so, it doesn't cover missions of my Battle Squadrons, Cruiser Squadrons, or individual ship descriptions which do speak of their specific roles in the fleet. Yes I should put more of those same details in the blurb.

The reason I've been concerned with dtons, not just roles, is I started with CT's Fighting Ships which did the same thing. I've mixed that with modern research. I'm trying to meld both since this is a Traveller product, not a completely new setting like Commonwealth. CT's Fighting Ships lists ship types with a definite dton range for each. I can try to put more role details in each class like I did with some of them and possibly make the dtons more generic - "Ships of this class are normally in the low ten-thousand dtons" as opposed to "Ships of this class are 10,000 to 30,000 dtons".

Yes I should have a Battleship above Cruiser. I orignally did. I had scrapped that when trying to reconcile with the information I had recenlty received from Gurps Sword Worlds that had a 20,000 dton Cruiser. I had my largest Battleship also at 20,000 dton. So I melded the two, changed my name to that of the Gurps Sword Worlds ship, and called it a Battlecruiser which from my research is sometimes similar to a Battleship. I'm now planning on putting back in an even larger ship above the 20,000 dton Cruiser, so this issue will be corrected soon.

On capital ships. I'm also using MGT as a resource since it seems at least half of my current target audience is doing so. MGT High Guard lists capital ships at over 2,000 dtons. I couldn't find anything in a very brief flip through my CT books that defines a capital ship. If CT capital ships are based completely on a spinal mount as you said, does that mean if someone actually designed a CT ship of 500,000 dtons without a spinal mount it wouldn't be called a capital ship? Since there may be more then one definition of a capital ship in Traveller rulesets I can remove some references to the word so it doesn't conflict.

Thanks for the criticisms (really*).

*I'm always worried that when I thank someone for criticising my work they may think I was being sarcastic when I'm not.

 

[rancke]

Enough theorizing. Here's a practical suggestion:

Have a war between the OEU and the Dingir League about a generation earlier, say around -450. By monumental bad luck, Dingir and Terra whaled the tar out of each other (the OEU Grand Fleet and the DL Great Armada slipped past each other and each pasted the other capital, causing a great destruction of infrastructure and loss of life). The secondary worlds got off a lot easier and have been carrying the two pocket empires for the past 30 year. And they were mostly TL11. Now both Terra and Dingir has climbed back up to <whichever TL and population gives you the budget you want> and some of the secondary worlds have begun building TL12 ships. Terra and dingir are still important -- their populations are still in the billions -- but their infrastructures still haven't recovered completely, so a lot of their resources have to be plunged back into reconstruction.

Vega and the Easter Concord are both TL12, but they're further away, so it doesn't matter so much (Or they may actually sell ships to Terra and Dingir).


Hans

 

[Sturn]

Made some adjustments to ship types:

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Battleship: A battleship is meant to engage other capital ships without being destroyed themselves. Thus, they are heavily armed and armored. Battleship are normally the largest ships in a Navy. The only current example in the Union Navy is 30,000 tons. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Cruiser: Cruisers are designed to hunt down other ships to destroy them in a quick engagement. They are used alongside battleships, in raids, and in a defensive role by destroying enemy ships before they can destroy the protected. Cruisers do not have the staying power of a battleship. Cruisers are capital ships normally between battleships and destroyers in size. Cruisers are sometimes further differentiated by being called Light Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers, or Battlecruisers (which are often similar to battleships). Note that the Union's new Heavy Scout Cruiser is somewhat of a misnomer, but it is classified thus due to its size and ability to destroy large non-meson armed enemy ships if needed. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Destroyer: Destroyers are intended as escorts to capital ships, convoy protectors, or for destroying smaller enemy ships. Destroyers are sometimes referred to as “Escort” ships, but this is only a role they often play and not restricted to this class. Destroyers are typically smaller then a Cruiser.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Frigate: Frigates are a very general purpose craft, the “work horse” of the Navy which can be found serving many varied roles. Frigates are often found reconfigured from their original design. Since, unlike their larger brethren, frigates are not assigned to one specific role, the type has begun to refer to any ship in the low 1,000's of tonnage.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Corvette: Corvettes are light fast attack craft. Corvettes' speed benefits them whether they are in a defensive picket harassing enemy ships or taking part in a raid. Corvettes are usually under 1,000 tons in size.[/FONT]​

 

[Sturn]

An adventure for the Terran Dawn setting is available. Not my creation, an excellent contribution of Paul Dutton's. A detailed adventure. CT stats included. Set just outside the Old Earth Union.

I'll let the author post a synopsis of The Stolen.

 

[Taythorian]

May I ask, what you used to draw the Sector Maps?

I have been searching for something friendly to use for a while now.

 

[Sturn]

I used Campaign Cartographer to make the maps. Not free and not overly simple I'm afraid.

Edit: There are lots of other sector map makers out there which are free and simple. Hopefully someone else may chime in.

 

[Sturn]

Minor updates to the Gazetteer and History chapters posted today. Just minor error corrections in the Gazetteer. History changes included a couple small things to bring it in sync with the Old Earth Union campaign guide.

May have a very rough draft (not pretty, but all the info is there) of the Old Earth guide uploaded soon.

 

[Peter Schutze]

>You could say the same thing about the China Trade during the Age of Sail. Unbelievably far from Europe and past pirate-infested waters. The thing is, trade isn't either or. There's luxury trade and there's bulk trade and there's a multitude of degrees in between. Quite possibly the Sylean Scouts brokered some deals that hadn't been considered profitable before. But that they opened up trade between those pocket empires sounds like self-serving braggadocio.

or you could do what ancient yemen and ethiopia did in the roman empire days .... be the middleman

the sylean reference could easily be them pointing out that the curry and other spices didnt come from yemen but from goa and other indian cities

thus Terra could be trading with a middleman for items stamped "made in regina" but not have merchants in direct contact across the whole of the collapsing 1st/2nd imperium and syleas scouts could tell them where exactly regina/spinward marches was

 

[sabredog]

If CT capital ships are based completely on a spinal mount as you said, does that mean if someone actually designed a CT ship of 500,000 dtons without a spinal mount it wouldn't be called a capital ship?

If you use the spinal mount as the only definition it wouldn't be...also, a lot of really big ships can be built that are not going to be capital ships: tenders, battle rider tenders, fleet "oilers" (or fuel ships), munitions and personnel transports...etc..

...none of these would be a "capital" ship. That designation is really for the cornerstone fighting vessel of your strategic doctrine. Whether or not your strategic doctrine (think power projection) means it has to have a spinal mount or not is up to you. It could just as easily mean the ship is just a big battlewagon, or a carrier (as it means today).

 

[Sturn]

QUESTIONS

#1

When doing research I had divided up UWPs for easier viewing thus:

B 356 899 - A

As in I put a spaces between the physical and social characteristics for easier reading. I accidentally left this format of UWPs in some PDFs I released. I believe I need to correct this due to some sort of copyright rule I read once, but don't recall?

#2 Long Traveller tech question

I have a pocket empire in Terran Dawn (Old Earth Union) that is on the verge of TL 12 and fielding some "prototype" technologies. One of these are "bounce belts" used by some elite infantry. These are non-full strength grav belts. I currently have their ability described as being able to negate a large portion of the user's weight, but not allow full flight. This results in an ability to travel or jump akin to moon-walking. I'm thinking of switching this ability to one that allows leaps, but not flight. A.i. the weak grav module allows a jump and safe landing every so often.

My problem is deciding over the two and giving a sensical reason for the limited prototype. The weak "bounce belt" could be described as unable to negate full gravity at their small size. The technology is not there yet to create a miniaturized grav belt powerful enough to allow flight. If I used the "jump belt" version instead, it gets more complicated. Early TL 12 in the Old Earth Union limits the minimum size of a fusion powerplant to vehicle size (no fusion+ or miniaturization yet). So, power is limited to weaker sources such as a hydrogen fuel cell. Possibly the power for long-duration flight with a grav belt is limited by weak powerplants at such a small size. A fuel cell charges an internal battery that allows a spurt of extreme power to allow a short flight (a jump) and a safe landing. The user then must wait a few minutes (?) as the fuel cell recharges the capacitors for another leap.

Thoughts?

PROGRESS

The text for the Old Earth Union campaign guide is pretty much done. But, it needs graphics, maps, a large amount of editing, etc. My document looks ugly as is, but the information is in there. It's a rough draft and I'm concerned at releasing it in an ugly, unedited, form without all of the needed graphics completed (vehicles, weapons, planet maps). But, it will take some time to get to a better looking releasable stage and I'm considering putting the very rough version out there. Worried that some will look at it in its current stage and be put off, not giving a second glance when I release something cleaned up and finished.

Oh and its grown to 239 pages (yikes!). Once I put in more planetary maps and format much of the text into two columns, this thing will be massive. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing.

A Technical Manual of vehicles, equipment, starships is next. Doing a Mongoose version first. Hope to be able to do a T5 version someday. Some of the graphics for the OEU guide will have to wait until I make them for the tech manual.

 

[Peter Schutze]

#2 "A fuel cell charges an internal battery"

just use batteries and recharge from support vehicles and require a turn or 5 for the circuitry to cool down

"I'm thinking of switching this ability to one that allows leaps"

maybe something simple like triples movement range

"I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing."

depends on the fluff to crunch ratio .... Pocket Empires often uses 2-3 paragraphs to say what in GT would be a simple sentence. An entire P/E chapter would be asingle LBB page

from what Ive seen thats not going to be a problem in your writitngs

 

[Sturn]

A rough draft "beta" version of "The Old Earth" pocket campaign guide is available. It is rough with missing graphics, yellow highlights of what I need to look at, needs editing, etc, but 239 pages of information.
Sorry, the file is large at 13 mb. I tried zipping it, but it only reduced to just under 11 mb. If someone with dialup wishes me to, I can divide it up into pieces.

Get it from the Terran Dawn website (scroll down to pick items to dowload).

It's huge, I don't expect anyone to comment on all of it. If you would like, pick a piece and tell me what's wrong so I can improve it.

As I complete graphics and read through it all again to more propertly edit it, I will post updates.

 

[shadowdragon]

*snip*
1. I imagined, like Hans was suggesting, that the dton range of different classes of ships would be quite smaller then those used by the later, much larger, 3rd Imperium. I would have no problem calling the Kestrel a 5,000 ton Escort Destroyer instead of a Destroyer Escort if that fits well with Gurps SW.

/QUOTE]

I apologize if this was covered, and again if you have moved beyond it but its just bugging me :smirk:. Escort Destroyer and Destroyer Escort would actually be the same thing if you are using modern navy parlance. The way it is read is Destroyer - Escort, as in:
Tomato - Red, 1 dozen
Tomato - Green, 5 dozen
Pistol - Colt 1911, 1
Its just how the military likes to make their lists (Item, Description, Number)

Destroyers were escorts. That was their main function other than destroying submarines. In naval terminology, a destroyer is a fast and maneuverable yet long-endurance warship intended to escort larger vessels in a fleet, convoy or battle group and defend them against smaller, short-range but powerful attackers (originally torpedo boats, later submarines and aircraft).
A Destroyer Escort (DE) is the classification for a smaller, lightly armed warship designed to be used to escort convoys of merchant marine ships, primarily of the United States Merchant Marine in World War II. It is employed primarily for anti-submarine warfare, but also provides some protection against aircraft and smaller attack vessels employed in this application.
As I said, I apologize if this was already covered or you have moved on. I feel better now. :rofl:

 

[Sturn]

Uploaded Beta1.02 after reading through the entire document and making a ton of grammatical corrections. Found several references that were outdated and updated them also. Added prototype battledress. Added hyperlinks to the index.

Still need to work on graphics (new ones) and updating the old ones hoping to make them look better and reduce the size of the overall document.

Find it in the website in my signature or direct link here.

 

[Sturn]

PROGRESS

A small, 5-page Introduction to Terran Dawn is available. It's a quick read for those wanting to get a feel for the setting without having to read through the much larger chapters.

Available here or at the Terran Dawn website in my signature.

 

[Sturn]

Paul Dutton has released a free new Terran Dawn adventure, The Ice Fortress. The 29 page adventure involves a combat drop to infiltrate a fortress and rescue a captured agent. Perfect for a mercenary, military, or espionage campaign. It includes maps, starships, deckplans, and vehicles. It is designed for CT and includes some house rules involving vehicle combat.

Find The Ice Fortress in the Terran Dawn link in my signature.

 

[ssgbryan]

Nifty, I look forward to reviewing it over the weekend.

 

[Cryton]

Still loving your work Sturn. Keep up the good work!