The Chemical Rocket Third Imperium

[Thot]

This is fun.

[...]
To put as example FFW, IMHO, the main differences would be:

1. Imperial ships would travel at J6, while Zhodani at J5, giving yet another advantage to the Imperials (in OTU both move at J3-4, with some ocasional J5 cruiser squadrons, as higher jump reduces payload too much). This would have been also important in communications.
2. Imperials, playing defensively, would have a clear advantage on fuel availability, as they would fight mostly in friendly terrain.
3. Reserves coming from elsewhere in the Imperium could no longer perform 3+ jumps a month (I always assumed they fiind the tankers ready in any spot to move as quick as posible), again due to the cooling down time.

So two jumps at jump-6 in CR3I vs 3 jumps at jump-4 in OTU? I'd say that might cancel each other out.

But it's true,. for later era, the speed gaps would make some difference. Enough to change the outcome of the war, though?

• I already talked about interface/landing problems. The Zhodani reembarcation in Jewell would probably have been quite disastrous.

Hm. Or maybe more expensive, with a fleet of tenders dropping interface craft behind the Zhodani lines in case they must retreat?

• The Imperial ambush to the retreating Zhodani from Rhylanor would probably also have been a true disaster, as most ships could jump out system, while in this universo they would have been out of fuel to maneuver and could not have jumped (again the 7 days cooling down).

Sure there would be some more differences I cannot think about right now.

Would that be enough to change the war? not sure, though I think in overall gives a small advantage to the Imperials, being on defensive.

But the Zhodani (and everybody else) would have been used to the defender being in that advantageous position. It may be that this would just mean that attackers use bigger support fleets in addition to their regular space combattants.

 

[mike wightman]

Let's say a world of interest to your polity is three jump 4 from your frontier and the same for me (12 parsecs) but I have the jump 6 drive.

Let's for the sake of argument we arrive in the system within a week of each other or so and begin fighting maneuvering etc.

You realise you can not win unless you get reinforcements, likewise I come to the same conclusion as out actual battle fleet capabilities are evenly matched.

You send for reinforcements - 3 jumps home, 3 jumps for the reinforcements - 6 weeks minimum.

I send for reinforcements at around the same time - 2 jumps home, 2 jumps fro reinforcements.

My now reinforced fleet now has a fortnight to wipe you out and then probably also have a nasty surprise for your reinforcements...

ok this scenario is incredibly contrived but the point is if I can jump further than you it soon adds up to my fleets being several weeks 'ahead' of yours.

 

[McPerth]

So two jumps at jump-6 in CR3I vs 3 jumps at jump-4 in OTU? I'd say that might cancel each other out.

But it's true,. for later era, the speed gaps would make some difference. Enough to change the outcome of the war, though?

Even this can be missleading, as a J6 ship usually may choose better his route to avoid stellar gaps, probably being even faster in the end. This is still increased if you need some special (non Lox/Lhyd) fuel, as you must choose only good quality starports. If you make your stops in middle space (empty hexes), the speed will be increased in any case, as you can ignore those stellar gaps and the star distribution, that uses to reduce efective jump capacity in those long trips.

Hm. Or maybe more expensive, with a fleet of tenders dropping interface craft behind the Zhodani lines in case they must retreat?

So, in the best case, it is more expensive and needs more payload capacity, and this money must come from somewhere (probaly reducing the combat fleet)...

But the Zhodani (and everybody else) would have been used to the defender being in that advantageous position. It may be that this would just mean that attackers use bigger support fleets in addition to their regular space combattants.

Same than above. This will increase the tail-to-tooth ratio, so again reducing the combat fleet...

-----------------------------------------

Another difference with OTU that can have a major impact:

As jump does not require fuel, and I guess Power Plants fuel last for a long time, the rifts are no longer a barrier for space navigation. You can cross the rift easily with several jumps, stoping in the middle of nowhere and waiting there for the drives to cool down.

The major impacts of this I can right now think about in OTU history would have been:

• FIrst Imperium would not have been shieded from the Vargr by the Whindhorn rift
• Aslan colonization of the Coreward part of the Hierate would have been quite easier, even with lower Jump capacity
• Imperium could have sent more reinforcements to FFW, as fleets from Gushemerge and the rimward parts of Corridor and Vland could cross the rift to reinforce
• Behind the Claw would not have been isolated during the rebellion
• The Regency would not have been shielded by the Rift against the Virus

So, I guess yes, it would have affected OTU history.

 

[Thot]

So you two would propose to change the adjustment of the jump drive in order to get a more 3I-like result? How could that be achieved without making the delta V of starships basically nonexistent?

 

[Thot]

[...]
So, in the best case, it is more expensive and needs more payload capacity, and this money must come from somewhere (probaly reducing the combat fleet)...
[...]

But isn't it conceivable that a chemical rocket engine will be cheaper to build than a gravitic drive?

 

[mike wightman]

You could go back to the original CT paradigm of jump drives being the larges of the three drives within the ship. If more of the jump ship is jump engine then riders will make more sense.
Another few things to think about:
how is the jump drive powered? Does it need a week to recharge the jump capacitors? Can you do this with solar and or fission power?
How do you get rid of waste heat?

The waste heat thing may actually be a way to rationalise the jump ships - their fission power plant will require extensive radiators that chemical rockets can do without.
Solar powered jump capacitors will take longer to recharge.
They - the chemical rocket ships - will still need radiators to get rid of waste heat eventually but during combat the riders can rely on internal heat sinks.

 

[mike wightman]

But isn't it conceivable that a chemical rocket engine will be cheaper to build than a gravitic drive?

I would say so.

 

[Thot]

You could go back to the original CT paradigm of jump drives being the larges of the three drives within the ship. If more of the jump ship is jump engine then riders will make more sense.
Another few things to think about:

Maybe I'll build two fleets with the two different design paradigms (BB vs BR) and let them fight each other to see what is superior...

how is the jump drive powered? Does it need a week to recharge the jump capacitors? Can you do this with solar and or fission power?
How do you get rid of waste heat?

The waste heat thing may actually be a way to rationalise the jump ships - their fission power plant will require extensive radiators that chemical rockets can do without.
Solar powered jump capacitors will take longer to recharge.
They - the chemical rocket ships - will still need radiators to get rid of waste heat eventually but during combat the riders can rely on internal heat sinks.

I'd go for solar, personally, or maybe just chemical "reactor", like a fuel cell or the like. Energy consumption of a fantasy thing like the jump drive is arbitrary anyway.

 

[mike wightman]

Solare panels won't be much use to ship that has jumped to Pluto, fuel cells. fission plants or RTGs would be needed.

Hmm, fuel cells use hydrogen and oxygen, of which you have an abundant supply for your rocket engines...

 

[Thot]

I am considering doing a Mongoose TAS PDF with this variant OTU. Would anyone be interested in an elaborate document about the concept of the CR3I?

 

[McPerth]

So you two would propose to change the adjustment of the jump drive in order to get a more 3I-like result? How could that be achieved without making the delta V of starships basically nonexistent?

Probably the easiest way would be to disallow the jump into empty space (maybe the cooling down needs gravity, as in 2300AD, or something like this)

But isn't it conceivable that a chemical rocket engine will be cheaper to build than a gravitic drive?

The chemical engine, probably, the whole ship, not so sure (at least to compensate the increased shipping tonnage needed for the fuel).

 

[McPerth]

I am considering doing a Mongoose TAS PDF with this variant OTU. Would anyone be interested in an elaborate document about the concept of the CR3I?

I'm afraid you will have (at best) a hard time to convert 3I to non-gravitic setting, as it is quite dependent on gravitics and the jump as it is described.

That does not mean you cannot make a very interesting ATU with your chemical rockets setting...

 

[mike wightman]

I am considering doing a Mongoose TAS PDF with this variant OTU. Would anyone be interested in an elaborate document about the concept of the CR3I?

Yes, I find the whole concept fascinating.

 

[Thot]

I'm afraid you will have (at best) a hard time to convert 3I to non-gravitic setting, as it is quite dependent on gravitics and the jump as it is described.

That does not mean you cannot make a very interesting ATU with your chemical rockets setting...

That is already in the making (for some idea about how the politics might end up, look into the "An Old Galaxy" thread). Currently I have 39 A4-sized pages (some 14,000 words; without illustrations safe for the map of local space around Sol), with more to come. It is being developed in German, but there will be an English version, too. It'll probably be based either on the MgTrav1 OGL or the Cepheus engine, and does contain conversion rules for using all kinds of existing Traveller spaceships.

But the CR3I might also be worth doing. And I am also thinking about doing a Chemical rocket Star Wars and Chemical Rocket Star Trek version (saucer section is for gravity generation!). But those would be purely free fan works and thus much smaller, I guess.

Aynway, many people seem to believe that history would turn out totally different if you remove gravitics and the jump fuel requirement. Maybe that idea isn't as good as I thought.

 

[Thot]

It's funny what came of this. I made up my own setting, Raketenstern, that uses some of the premises of this thread.

No third Imperium, though, but the technology and infrastructure is basically as discussed here. Seems to work fine, I'd say.

 

[mike wightman]

I have adapted a lot of what has been in this thread for my next Culture campaign - the PCs are off to a world that has discovered relic hypergate technology - similar to a jump gate in concept - but are stuck with near future levels of spaceship technology.

The world in question is expanding into its local pocket of stars but is unaware of the much more advanced civilizations in the galaxy at large.

The PCs have to go and find out if the world in question is ready for their introduction to the wider galaxy, or if they are yet another suicidal warmongering race.


There are of course other complications...

 

[HanleyTucks]

I like Wendell Chung's comment that a scifi authour is allowed one bit of magic technology for their scifi as a free pass.

Now, do we choose fusion drives burning 1/60th of 1kg a second to produce 9.8m/sec of change in velocity each second, Jump drives, or gravitics, hmm... It seems like the OP has chosen the second one!