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The Compleat "maybe we'll fix that" Requirements List

robject

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OK. I'd like to bring together the collective Traveller wisdom from the "Compleat Battleship" and "maybe we'll fix that" threads. Our collective experience represents a couple hundred years of Traveller gaming.

In your opinion (perhaps even IYTU), what are the requirements, for Traveller, for fleet and squadron, strategic, operational, and tactical, combat?

Assume that these are requirements which can, and should, feed into ship design.

For the purposes of discussion, Everything not immutably nailed down in canon is on the table. Even "securely nailed down" can be scrutinized and toyed with. Draw wisdom from any Traveller ruleset, and outside the Traveller rulesets. If it is useful to represent Traveller, post it. CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20, TH, MGT, T5, etc.

For example, the spinal gun is built into the keel of a ship, and is the biggest gun on the ship. Securely nailed down in canon. But: can a ship have multiple keels? Could a ship field a dozen spines? The real question, though, is how should Traveller combat work?.

As a counter-example, the jump drive is here to stay, and the maneuver drive and power plant is the norm. This can be a fuzzy line, but this thread is primarily about how Traveller combat works/should work on its various levels.
 
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Here's an example of some high-level combat assumptions:

Code:
             Can Defeat...
Mission      Fighter? Escort? Frigate?  Battleship?
Fighter         1       s        w          m
Escort          1       1        s          w
Frigate         1       1        1          s
Battleship      1       1        1          1

1 = single ship
s = squadron
w = "wing"
m = multitude, as in Biblical multitudes

Should a multitude of fighters be able to take down a lone battleship? Maybe, maybe not. Can they carry a single salvo of ship-busting torpedos?
 
Ship classes should be specified by their toughness, not just their firepower.

Battleships should be the toughest things around (except for planetary fortresses). They may or may not have more spinal gun firepower than other ships, but they should be able to soak up more damage than anything else in space. A battleship should be able to take three or even four hits from its own guns before being knocked out of action.

Cruisers (including most battleriders) should be able to take one blast from battleship/cruiser level firepower. Two such hits should take these vessels out.

Escorts can't stand up to even one blast of battleship firepower. Even half of such energy should take them out. Escorts rely on not getting hit (both from size/agility/ECM and from not being =worth= a battleship's firepower) as their main defense against the big ships.

Fighters get killed in numbers from even a fraction of a battleship's firepower. The main defense fighters should have is sheer numbers; you just can't get them all.
 
I have always wanted a 10-ton fighter that carries a pair of missiles in addition to its laser (my own reading of the CT bk2 rules has me thinking that a missile launcher includes reloads).
 
a really good job of fixing things, as opposed to slapping on crude patches, would also include changes/revisions to the chosen ship/vehicle design rules. In fact, I'd even suggest that most of the changes would be there.

performance based on F=ma as opposed to volume-based; this causes design trade-offs between performance and armor protection.
agility affected by ship's size and configuration such that a ship's moment of inertia is taken into account as opposed to just shoving more powerful p-plants into a hull. Configuration also affects surface area*.
Remove generic computer dm's and replace them with sensor and ECM dm's for target locks.

*Hardpoint numbers determined from a hull's surface area (which follows the square cube law).
The usual design systems tell us that you get a single hardpoint per 100 dtons. But this seriously shortchanges smaller ships when compared to larger ships.
For example, a 100dton cube ship gets a single hardpoint for its 732 square meter surface area, whereas a 100,000dton cube ship gets a hardpoint per 73 square meters of surface area. A million dton ship gets a hardpoint per 34 square meters.
This has carried over since the beginning with all versions following it except TNE.

I think hardpoints should be related to vol^(2/3) of a ship.
A quick way could be the usual number of hardpoints^(2/3) times 5 ( ignore the sixth side of the cube for the engines/thrusters ).

A 25,000 dton ship might have (250^(2/3))*5 = 198 hardpoints
A 325,000 dton ship might have (3,250^(2/3)*5 = 1,097 hardpoints.

*732 m^2 is the total surface area of a 100 dton cube ship... 6*(100dtons*13.5)^(2/3), but I'd ignore one side of the cube to give room for the engines... let a 100dton cube have 5 hardpoints. Let sensors take up a hardpoint each too.... perhaps fixed mounts should only count as taking up 1/2 a hardpoint.
Other hull configuration are likewise affected. Different configurations should have mods relative to a base shape.
 
For example, the spinal gun is built into the keel of a ship, and is the biggest gun on the ship. Securely nailed down in canon. But: can a ship have multiple keels? Could a ship field a dozen spines? The real question, though, is how should Traveller combat work?.

As I already posted in another thread, I don't believe teh same concept of spinal weapon allows for multiple weapons (unless you want to fire them to the sam ship).

Spinals are fixed, relative to the hull, and to aim them you must turn the whole ship (in MT there's even a Pilot related Task to aim them), and, unless enemy is so kind to put its ships just in the precise angle they ar aimed, they can only aim one ship at once, regardless of how many spinals it has.

I see them as the fixed MGs/guns a WWII fighter had. One Spitfire Mk I (to give an example) had 8 MGs, but as all pointed forward, he could fire only one plane with all 8 MGs firing in tandem, he could not fire 8 aircarafts at once dividing its fire with one MG each.

Imagine a Tigress (its spheric shape would allow that) with 2 spinals angled 90º each other. Unless he has two ships just in 90º relative to its hull, one of them must be waiting while the other fires.
 
First thing that springs to mind is the ship type vs ship type matrix changes as you go through the TLs - this is a good thing IMHO.

Next - spinals. TNE and T4 gives us parallel mounts and janus mounts - another good thing IMHO.

More to come...
 
One thing that I think would be extremely useful would be to distinguish between a) things the rules disallow because the laws of nature of the universe prevent them from working, b) things the rules disallow because although they're possible, they don't work well, and c) things the rules disallow because that's not the way it's done in the Imperium.

An example would be the 'only one spinal' rule. I suspect catamaran designs are possible, but usually not worth it. 'Gatling spinal' designs may be impossible to get to work, and 'multi-barrel' designs may or may not have the spinals interfering with each other.

Category C rules ought to explain why it isn't done in the Imperium and provide rules for what happens if someone else does it anyway. Category B rules ought to explain why they don't work well enough use.

Another rule might be the one about computer models. Why can't you string together several factor 8 computers and make them perform like a factor 9? (Or get several factor 9 computers to provide a +10 bonus?)


Hans
 
An example would be the 'only one spinal' rule. I suspect catamaran designs are possible, but usually not worth it.

Hans

I think it could be useful to have a pair of type T mesons facing the same target, when that target is around the same size or larger than a Tigress... Then it might only take 2-3 hits to take that ship out, as opposed to the six+ (?) mentioned in an earlier thread.

Of course, sync-ing them to aim together properly could be just a bit of a nightmare... Then there's always the power requirements. Then the space needed.
The tradeoffs might make it worthwhile, or the ship may be a sitting duck. Someone who has more time than me would have to run the numbers... and it's been years since I've had a copy of High Guard. :(
 
The multi spinals and meson screen/armor rules I supposed don't really alter anything other than a couple of battleship designs. They return Battleships to their canonical place though.
 
If "Canon is as canon does" is a requirement, then the ever popular BR v BB debate will continue, since the Imperium (apparently, I'll let the canonistas argue those points) deployed and promoted both doctrines. I guess the new rule set will need to come up with mechanics and reasons why both are viable from a design point of view, and then why one is chosen over another from a doctrine/logistics point of view.

I believe the "Critical" nature of the combat system must be retained. Effectively ship design centers upon the basic premise of "lasting long enough to get a lucky", and larger ships "get lucky" more often against smaller ships than vice-a-versa.

At the same time, you don't want a free trader and a pirate ship exchanging blows and having one of them spontaneously explode after a single round of combat. At the small ship level it needs to be more about scraping weapons off of each other and reducing drive ratings etc than out and out killing blows.

This would likely be managed by the basic fact that the smaller ships can't carry anything "strong enough" to do that kind of instant damage to each other.

But the larger ships will certainly need that kind of firepower. The bay weapons and spinals being the most likely sorts to enable this capability.

I believe the TNE system is actually pretty close to this, the biggest failing of the stock system is that the missiles don't work well against larger ships, as missiles are basically a bunch of close range lasers, and lasers don't have the capability to crit large ships. In TNE lasers are "death by a thousand cuts". Dangerous to small ships, not so much to larger ships. If you can't crit it, you can't kill it -- at least not quickly.

Mind, save for Battle Rider, TNE is pretty much a "small ship" game, since there was nothing published in terms of large ships. Even the Regency Source Book's ships enforcing the quarantine are were, what, 700-1000 tons? No large 10-20K ton cruiser or riders or BBs documented by the time it all ended. FF&S could make them, of course.

There needs to be crossover between ships weapons and ground vehicles. While T-Factor spinals may not be shooting at TL-15 Intrepid grav tanks, it would be good to know how they work from in the Ortillery role. And, again, while we may not be shooting spinals at tanks, I can easily see wanting to beset a laser turret on one while trying figure out what will happen when the tanks main fusion gun starts trying to punch holes in to the side of my ship. Can a RAM grenade breach a Free Trader hull or airlock hatch?? Things like that.

I don't have a real issue with the abstract combat systems. Folks talk about movement, 2D, 3D, etc. But maneuver offers so little value in current Traveller combat. Maneuver only makes sense when their's something to maneuver around, that is, it only matters when terrain is involved.

In deep space, there is no terrain, save for planets, maybe asteroids. Fighting in asteroids is, despite the excellent piloting of Han Solo, either insane due to density, or irrelevant, again due to density. If the rocks are dense enough to get in the way, they're likely dense enough to destroy the ships flying among them. And if they're not that dense, well, they don't matter anyway.

Range matters, ship facing ALMOST matters (it doesn't matter to meson guns, for example). TNE used whiteout from missile explosions as, effectively, "chaff pods" affecting detection. Blobs of energy blocking "line of site" for detection DMs. But ships aren't stealthy enough to really take advantage of these whiteouts. They certainly help, but more like smoke for a squad of infantry. It's difficult for a ship to duck behind such a whiteout and then "vanish" from the EM spectrum and break lock. Fire a missile, blow it up for noise and then go dark so as to be mostly undetectable when the noise clears. And against multiple ships, its utterly worthless. Ship A loses lock, Ship B has lock, gives lock to Ship A -- Fire when ready griddly.

The rules simply don't work very well for that, but it could be an interesting mechanic.

Maneuver can possibly be used with these mechanics, but as realistic as vector movement is, it's really not very agile. It's hard to turn, hard to stop, etc. It's awkward enough that even if there was a planet in play, you're either behind it or you're not, and you're certainly not going to "pop up", take a shot, and then "pop down", ducking and dodging behind it.

Space combat is a game of riflemen in a bull ring.

This ties in to the other issue: the likely pre-determination of the result, and how little there is the players can do about it.

HG's abstract system is mostly pre-destined. When the fleets show up, the result is pretty much pre-determined. We as players may not immediately see who is going to win, but at the same time, we, as players, if played reasonably, can't do much to affect the outcome. The fleet organization and composition decided that for us up front. One fleet has enough of an advantage early on with which to prosecute the battle, or the fleets are even enough that the decisions are up to the dice alone.

It's kind of like the card game "War". That game is decided when the deck is shuffled. We as players don't know the result until we play it out, but as participants, we can only really watch it unfold without really affecting the outcome. An HG fleet battle is similar.

Even the more detailed maneuver based systems are well determined just by showing up, since the systems of play aren't really deep enough to give the players options in how to conduct the battle. In range? Blast away. Out of range? Decide whether to close or run.

TNE mixed that up a little with limited fuel, and G-turns, etc. But, again, you're either in range or you're not.

I have no idea what can be done about that, I think it's simply the nature of "realistic" space combat. Consumables can be important, as they effect decision making. "Use it now, or use it later but possibly lose it completely". Limitation affect choice. But energy weapons don't have that problem, pretty much only missiles and sand caster have "ammo". And Sand Casters are basically ablative armor, giving your ship time to run away. But if the attacker is faster than you, you're basically a dead duck unless you have somewhere to run to or cavalry coming. Eventually he can laser your ship out of sand casters. At that point it's almost a race against the dice.

I think folks would enjoy a larger strategic system, ala TCS or Pocket Empires. Again, HG is perfect for this because the game is a logistics challenge to get the fleets in the right places at the right times, vs the details of ship v ship action. When the Big Fleet shows up against the Small Fleet, Big Fleet wins, takes some damage, roll to see if the admiral was killed.

Anyway, those are my thoughts of overall issues with ship combat in Traveller.
 
Ship classes should be specified by their toughness, not just their firepower.

I have always wanted a 10-ton fighter that carries a pair of missiles in addition to its laser [...]

Missile salvos, not unlike High Guard 1's salvo rule?

[...] ship type vs ship type matrix changes as you go through the TLs [...]

[...] parallel mounts and janus mounts [...]

One thing that I think would be extremely useful would be to distinguish between a) things the rules disallow because the laws of nature of the universe prevent them from working, b) things the rules disallow because although they're possible, they don't work well, and c) things the rules disallow because that's not the way it's done in the Imperium.

This is a good guiding principle. I'd amend it by suggesting what Mike said: tech levels might favor certain design features over others.

Hans said:
Another rule might be the one about computer models. Why can't you string together several factor 8 computers and make them perform like a factor 9? (Or get several factor 9 computers to provide a +10 bonus?)

Another general principle worth considering.

the ever popular BR v BB debate will continue, since the Imperium (apparently, I'll let the canonistas argue those points) deployed and promoted both doctrines. I guess the new rule set will need to come up with mechanics and reasons why both are viable from a design point of view, and then why one is chosen over another from a doctrine/logistics point of view.

[...]

I believe the "Critical" nature of the combat system [mainly for Big Ships -rob] must be retained.

[...]

At the small ship level it needs to be more about scraping weapons off of each other and reducing drive ratings etc than out and out killing blows.

[...]

There needs to be crossover between ships weapons and ground vehicles.

[...]

Range matters, ship facing ALMOST matters (it doesn't matter to meson guns, for example). TNE used whiteout from missile explosions as, effectively, "chaff pods" affecting detection.

[...]

[HG combat is essentially deterministic]. Even the more detailed maneuver based systems are well determined just by showing up, since the systems of play aren't really deep enough to give the players options in how to conduct the battle. In range? Blast away. Out of range? Decide whether to close or run. [You're either in range, or you're not. What else is there?]

[...]

I think folks would enjoy a larger strategic system, ala TCS or Pocket Empires. Again, HG is perfect for this because the game is a logistics challenge to get the fleets in the right places at the right times, vs the details of ship v ship action. When the Big Fleet shows up against the Small Fleet, Big Fleet wins, takes some damage, roll to see if the admiral was killed.

Well said.
 
First of all, any changes should be kept to an absolute minimum to avoid activating the rule of unexpected consequences.

Secondly, handwaves to stretch canon are tolerable (if undesirable), outright changes are not. To this end: battleriders should be a better investment in a straight credit on credit battle, but battleships should be a viable option if deployed as a holding force (here I think there is no rule change needed, just a slight handwave to explain why the Imperium builds such suboptimal battleships). The J meson should not be a better investment than the T meson (here I think the solution is not in making bigger ships tougher, its in making little guns less lethal).
 
One thing that I think would be extremely useful would be to distinguish between a) things the rules disallow because the laws of nature of the universe prevent them from working, b) things the rules disallow because although they're possible, they don't work well, and c) things the rules disallow because that's not the way it's done in the Imperium.

An example would be the 'only one spinal' rule. I suspect catamaran designs are possible, but usually not worth it. 'Gatling spinal' designs may be impossible to get to work, and 'multi-barrel' designs may or may not have the spinals interfering with each other.

Category C rules ought to explain why it isn't done in the Imperium and provide rules for what happens if someone else does it anyway. Category B rules ought to explain why they don't work well enough use.

Another rule might be the one about computer models. Why can't you string together several factor 8 computers and make them perform like a factor 9? (Or get several factor 9 computers to provide a +10 bonus?)

Hans

A lot about why the Imperium does things can be explained away as "they're so huge they can afford to trade cost effectiveness for individual superiority". ForEx: In HG, a jump 4 you can get two and a half agility 5 ships for every agility 6 ships (which is very definitely not two and a half times as effective). Yet the Imperium regards agility 5 ships as obsolete and in need to replacement.

The most cost effective size for an A6 J3 battleship is around 75-80Kton, but the Imperium builds in the 200Kton range.

The single rider jump shuttle is just as cost effective as the multi rider tender and considerably more strategically flexible, yet the Imperium only seems to build multi rider tenders (yes I do now have an explanation for this one, the Imperium does it to prevent admirals ignoring doctrine).

Though why on earth the Plankwell's only have a factor 3 meson screen still eludes me.
 
The single rider jump shuttle is just as cost effective as the multi rider tender and considerably more strategically flexible, yet the Imperium only seems to build multi rider tenders (yes I do now have an explanation for this one, the Imperium does it to prevent admirals ignoring doctrine)..

Want to open this debate again?

As you know, I have several reasons more to keep with the multi-raider tender (most of them quite difficult to reflect on the rules, but I cannot take out of my mind this comes from a roleplaying game and tries to reflect reality), from command and control to squadron integrity...

Though why on earth the Plankwell's only have a factor 3 meson screen still eludes me.

In MT it's no strange to see published battle ships have multiple redundant screens. The only use I see for that is just in case a critical destoys your screen, or to compensate for the screens -1 results. Even so, if you're receiing criticals or interior explosions, I don't believe that would help you too much...
 
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Though why on earth the Plankwell's only have a factor 3 meson screen still eludes me.

With the factor-3 screen it is agility-5, with factor-8 it is agility-4, factor-9 it is agility-3. Part of the overall trade-off to get J4.

Meson screen-3 is also sufficient to be immune to meson bays.

But that was from a quick look at Fighting Ships. As we know, its not a very reliable document.
 
First of all, any changes should be kept to an absolute minimum to avoid activating the rule of unexpected consequences.

The J meson should not be a better investment than the T meson (here I think the solution is not in making bigger ships tougher, its in making little guns less lethal).

Which is done better though making meson screening better, which can be done without changing any tables.
 
Some have suggested in several threads about this theme to reduce the effectiveness of MG by allowing meson screens to act as armor against them.

Maybe this idea is just garbage, and feel free to consider it as such if you so think, but I thought another possibility would be to use them as armor, but reduce this armor depending on the success in the penetration table.

So, if you fire a J rated MG against a ship equipped with 7 rating meson screen you need a 8+ to penetrate. If you roll an 8, the screen acts as armor 7. If you roll a 12 (4 over what you need), the screens act as armor 3 (7-4). If you roll a 4 (4 less than needed), screens act as armor 11 (7+4).

This way, screens are not anymore an all or nothing affair (either you are unscratched or dead, in case of meson spinals), but act more as real world defenses.

Also, this way, a big ship that avoids automatic critical hits is really quite more survivable in battle than a lesser ship.

That was my proposal in the thread 'make battleships work' to reduce the effect of meson guns or perhaps would be better to say reinforce the effect of meson screens, so that a J meson gun is quite less powerful than a T meson gun.
 
That was my proposal in the thread 'make battleships work' to reduce the effect of meson guns or perhaps would be better to say reinforce the effect of meson screens, so that a J meson gun is quite less powerful than a T meson gun.
You still have to make it proportionally more expensive for a small ship to carry a big screen than for a big ship. As it is, the biggest expense of carrying a screen is the power requirement, which is directly proportional to the size of the ship. Unless you change that, your heavy cruiser is going to be as well armored as your battleship, leaving us with our original conundrum; why build battleships at all?

Giving TL15 ships something equivalent to armor versus meson weapons is necessary, yes, but size has to be a significant survival factor in itself. And, yes, I know size helps against bonus criticals, but a ship only needs to be mission killed once before becoming useless.


Hans
 
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