The Imperial Army

[rancke]

What difference does it make if the Imperium does have an organized Army?

It affects how much of the material in GT:Ground Forces that can be used directly and how much a referee has to modify it before use. It affects the background of the setting; the Imperial Army's 1197th Separate Light Infantry Brigade headquartered on Regina will have a different composition of officers and men than the Regina Army's 1197th Separate Light Infantry Brigade on loan to the Imperium. It could affect game play; the officers and men of the IA 1197th would probably have different loyalties than the officers and men of the RA 1197th and a player might play an ex-officer from Mora that had served in the IA 1197th on Regina differently from an ex-officer from Regina that had served in the RA 1197th.

It might also affect how a hypothetical future Traveller writer uses the 1197th in a future adventure.


Hans

 

[rancke]

[/SIZE]¶Reliable sources in the defense establishment have admitted in private that the Imperial Army's 1197th Separate Light Infantry Brigade has been engaged in counter-insurgency operations in the Vandere district of Kormoron (Efate's northern continent) for the last eight months. When asked to comment on Rear-Admiral Lord Santanocheev's recent claim that no Imperial army or marine units had been committed, they declined

¶One official did explain, however, that the brigade was only employed in mopping up operations and had been inserted only to allow rotation of indigenous troops out of combat. "Once all the local units in Vandere have had a spell in the rear, the 1197th will be pulled out," he said. Ω
[/INDENT]That seems awfully specific to be attributable to an act of overzealous journalism.

The 1197th could be a unit of the Regina Army on loan to the Imperium and erroneously (or traditionally) referred to as belonging to the Imperium's army while serving under its auspices.

Not to mention the fact that there is at least one mention of just such a central standard:

204-1107 ⑆Rhylanor (Spinward Marches 2716)

¶Army Vice-Marshal Adam Lord Bryor today announced that a presumed state of war now exists between the Imperium and the Sword Worlds, following receipt of word that Lanth (Spinward Marches 1719) was under attack by fleet and ground elements of that state. Characterizing the Sword Worlds' action as "a perfidious betrayal", Bryor dismissed any suggestion that Rhylanor was vulnerable to a Sword Worlds attack

¶"In addition to the Imperial Marines on-planet, Rhylanor has 25 active divisions equipped to Imperial standards", Bryor explained. "Even if a Sword Worlds squadron could fight its way through Rhylanor's boats, there's no conceivable way a Sword Worlds army could gain a foothold on-planet. Since Rhylanor is one of the foci for naval reinforcement from Deneb Sector, a Sword Worlds fleet would be courting disaster to strike here."
​

That depends on what Imperial standards are. It could just be equipped to TL15, which all of Rhylanor's troops would be. Though admittedly Lord Bryor is off in his numbers by a factor 8 or thereabouts if so (IMO a world with 8 billion people would have something in the neighborhood of 8 times as many troops as a world with a population of 1 billion).

One might reinterpret the 25 divisions to be the portion of its troops that Rhylanor's membership treaty obliges it to loan to the Imperium on demand. But since Lord Bryor was speaking of the defenses a hypothetical invading Sword Worlds force would face, it would IMO be a better retcon to say that '25' was a misprint for '200'.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The Imperial Army is those world's regiments that meet the "imperial standards" and are available to the 3I for use off-world. There IS a standard - but if one looks closely at the counter mix in Invasion Earth, all the impies have homeworld based names.

Otto, any chance that you could add those homeworld based names to your list of Imperial units?

Very much 19th C UK army.

Funny, I think of the 19th Century British Army as a useful analogy of having both an Imperial Army and planetary armies. The King's troops would be the analog of the Imperial Army and Company troops would be the equivalent of planetary forces. (Note that the analogy is impaired by the difference in the relationship between the Imperium and member worlds vs. the relationship between the King and John Company. It will be further strained if there exists a third tier, duchy armies, similar to duchy navies).

 

[Gray Pennell]

It affects how much of the material in GT:Ground Forces that can be used directly and how much a referee has to modify it before use. It affects the background of the setting; the Imperial Army's 1197th Separate Light Infantry Brigade headquartered on Regina will have a different composition of officers and men than the Regina Army's 1197th Separate Light Infantry Brigade on loan to the Imperium. It could affect game play; the officers and men of the IA 1197th would probably have different loyalties than the officers and men of the RA 1197th and a player might play an ex-officer from Mora that had served in the IA 1197th on Regina differently from an ex-officer from Regina that had served in the RA 1197th.

It might also affect how a hypothetical future Traveller writer uses the 1197th in a future adventure.


Hans

Then we are arguing over whats more Canon GURPS ground forces or CT Supplements. I am all about trying to get things to work together. So how about this.

GT is set 25 years in the Future from CT and the 5FW so lets just say the army was disbanded post 5FW in order to appease Nobles who were afraid of Fleet Emperors appearing. The Emperor agrees to this as long as the Grand Dukes keep the Domains in the Imperium. This keeps GT and CT background in place. If your an MT fan the Army dissolves to the strongest power. Some go to the Grand Dukes others stay loyal. Is this perfect no but it wont wipe out whole canons.

 

[Whipsnade]

What difference does it make if the Imperium does have an organized Army?

So, how does the Imperium conquer worlds again?

You know, places like Terra during the Rim War...

 

[Gray Pennell]

Well I dont know maybe they used near C rocks launched from some god like technology ancient tech captured from space pirates than sent in a battalion of jump marines to mop up. or they just an imperial army which ever one doesnt break YTU works for me!

 

[Dragoner]

The constant renaming units from say Regina to the Imperial would hurt their esprit de corps. I'm not sure Marc Miller being a former army officer would want to represent the Imperium as having some horrible and degraded army.

 

[Duke Craig]

Re: Imperial Army

IMTU (circa 1115) there is The Imperial Army and also The Colonial Army. These are both Imperial Offices based at Vland. By Emperor’s decree, these units are paid for by collectively:
1. Planetary Military Budgets, 90%
2. the local Imperial Duke, 1%
3. the Arch Duke, 1%
4. the client state, 7.975%
5. The Emperor. 0.025%
The Imperial Army is an enormous organization, much larger in manpower than the Imperial Navy or the Imperial Marines (which is actually a branch of the Imperial Navy).
Imperial Army units are equipped to TL 12-15 depending on the member world supporting the Imperial unit. Thus the Imperial Army maintains garrisons on high technology member worlds.
This has occurred since the beginning of the Third Imperium when Sylea maintained small cadres on numerous member worlds and member worlds provided battalions for training by the Imperial Army. (See T4 Milieu 0 Campaign)
The organization of these units vary widely and are called Imperial Army Units or Colonial Army Units depending on whether the member world is first tier (TL 13-15) or second tier (TL9-12). The actual mission of the Imperial Army is probably to promote smooth accession of client states into member worlds by both the threat of police action against rebellious states and the offer of training and technology for friendly states.
The Imperial Army often act as cadres for Colonial or planetary forces. Other missions of the IA are to act as reserves in the event of a planetary invasion and to show the flag to member worlds to keep them in line.
Finally, the Imperial Army Command is subsector based at its lowest level. This maintains a cohesive functional purpose as directed by the Emperor and the Imperial Military High Command. In practice, Imperial Armies are usually commanded by the local subsector Duke or the Duke’s representative.
IMTU, During the Third Imperium Vland became the base for these Imperial Army Units when Vilani took control of the Imperium from The Syleans around 560 TI. Though there was a brief period after this when Cleon V took back control to Sylea.
However, IMTU, the size of Imperial/Colonial Armies would be only around 1/10th of the size of local units on the planet. Just enough to wave the flag but if the planetary forces crushed the Imperial forces on the planet this would provide the Imperium a good reason to invade en masse to destroy dissidents.

Assumptions
Each Imperial trooper costs an average of Imperial Cr 150,000 to equip and maintain per year.
Thus, a 42 man platoon costs MCr 6.3 per year, Thus a 125 man company costs MCr 18.75 p.a., Thus a 625 man battalion costs MCr 93.75 p.a.

Without going into too much detail one hundred Battalions cost 1-2 (closer to 2) planetary Resource Unit (on average) using Sylea RU ( 1 RU = 4919 MCr) as the base. (See T4 Pocket Empires or Imperial Squadrons.)
So, 62,500 troopers are about 1 ½ to 2 divisions or one corps of army depending on the type ie infantry, cavalry, artillery, engineers, etc. Of course, Infantry corps are larger and Artillery corps are smaller. This is just to show the scale.
Again, IMTU these costs double (at least!) when the army is required to move to another stellar system, so armies tend to be confined to a planet or local system base. Also these costs double and redouble when we are talking about cavalry or elite units that are readily capable of rapid interstellar deployment.

Colonial Army troopers are equipped to TL 10-12 again depending on the member world’s predominant TL. Colonial Armies tend to be more geared towards defence against external forces and may become conflicted when directed against internal forces.
Member worlds may also maintain planetary, country or regional armies.
Each Colonial trooper in these armies costs an average of 100,000 Cr per year.

Mercenaries are used by the Imperium to apply military force to systems outside of the Imperial main (i.e. low tech planets off the normal trade routes) simply because they are much cheaper and may be employed on success only contracts.
For more information about The Imperial Army See TNS

I: EFATEIREGINA (0105-A64930-D) Date: 148-1106
7 Reliable sources in the defense establishment have admitted in private that the Imperial Armys' 1197th Separate Light Infantry Brigade has been engaged in counter-insurgency operations in the Vandere district of Kormoran (Efate's northern continent

I: RUIEIREGINA (C-776977-7) Date: 003- 1107
Q Military authorities in the Jingarlu army on this non-Imperial frontier world
are apparently encountering difficulty hiring mercenary striker units for use along the Jingarlu-Nebelthorn border.. … ..Jingarlu authorities speculate that large scale Imperial Army hirings in the Regina subsector for use on Efate may be the cause of the shortage, but reliable Imperial sources deny...

Enjoy!
Craig

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, I tried to create a "Noble Militaries" thread to hash out so-called colonial forces, but, to my way of thinking at least, colonial forces conjure images of militia like units created from settlers whose real full time job is to plow fields, chop wood, mine ore, make products, ship goods and provide services. Twice a month or more they meet up, drill, PT, shoot, then go back home.

I think the Imperial Army is just one massive unit that has several "sub-armies" under subesector commands. That's about as far as I'll speculate on organization.

I'll bet there's well equpped regulars on high tech level worlds, bare bones units with rudimentary standard issue ACRs and some light armor on other worlds, but all serving under the Imperial Banner.

I think planetary forces would be a mix of guard and regular non-Imperial army troops. Really important worlds that either had lots of assets or whose loyralies were in question would have large Imperial Army units stationed on them. Worlds that were firmly Imperial or had little value might just have local forces, if that. Worlds that were kind of on the fence, leaned more towards the local nobility or government-of-choice would probably have both Imperial Army and planetary forces. To make things interesting they might also have guard units as well as noble forces (huscarles, yoemanry, dragoons, etc.). That would make for one hell of an adventure ... remind me to write that one up.

Someone said "yanks in space" with nobles, and I think that's right. If we think of the Imperium as a US template, then how many army bases are there in Wyoming? None. There's the Air Force and some guard units for local stuff, but no US Army units. That verse California or Hawaii, the "Spinward Marches" of the US, as it were, where we have tons of bases all over the place in addition to our national guard units.

Now imagine California had a large supply of rich nobles. Say Steve Jobs was a noble before passing, and one of his duties was to defend San Jose and its surrounding areas from the Soviets, PRC and south of the border drug cartels. He might have organized "Steve Jobs' Own", Apple Computer's light infantry brigade.

Anyway, just more random imaginings.

Regardless, there is an Imperial Army with basic standards for equipment and training. I'm sure there are TONS of other units floating out there.

 

[Carlobrand]

The 1197th could be a unit of the Regina Army on loan to the Imperium and erroneously (or traditionally) referred to as belonging to the Imperium's army while serving under its auspices.

Could be. Could be anything: there is no 1197th in Fifth Frontier War (FFW). One 1C corps (Imperial or colonial, your choice) starts the game at Efate. So, the 1197th is wholly subsumed under that corps unit and could be anything.

That depends on what Imperial standards are. It could just be equipped to TL15, which all of Rhylanor's troops would be. Though admittedly Lord Bryor is off in his numbers by a factor 8 or thereabouts if so (IMO a world with 8 billion people would have something in the neighborhood of 8 times as many troops as a world with a population of 1 billion).

One might reinterpret the 25 divisions to be the portion of its troops that Rhylanor's membership treaty obliges it to loan to the Imperium on demand. But since Lord Bryor was speaking of the defenses a hypothetical invading Sword Worlds force would face, it would IMO be a better retcon to say that '25' was a misprint for '200'.
Hans

Yes and no. In FFW, Rhylanor hosts 500 batallions of planetary troops according to its world box. Since Rhylanor is TL15, those troops are armed to TL15. A division is 20 batallions, so Lord Bryor's statement is accurate: 25 divisions, or 500 total batallions equipped to Imperial standard. Those troops, being planetary troops, can't be moved.

MT Rebellion Sourcebook has a table which shows army size increasing with population up til about TL6, after which - perhaps because of the increasing cost of equipping the individual soldier - army size starts decreasing with increasing tech level. I recall a similar or identical table in one of the Journals around the time of the game's release. FFW predates Spinward Marches Campaign (SMC) by 4 years and Book-6/Scouts by 2 years, so the Supplement-3 pop value was all they had at the time of the game's publication. Here's where things get interesting: Rhylanor, a pop-9 world, is supposed to have 5 thousand batallions, not 500. Other worlds in the game fit that table, but apparently Rhylanor was cut back for play balance; otherwise the Zho player wouldn't have a snowball's chance of taking the planet with the forces in play, which SMC makes clear was one of the Zho strategies.

 

[Dragoner]

Enjoy!
Craig

Thanks! That is very interesting.

 

[Carlobrand]

The Imperial Army is those world's regiments that meet the "imperial standards" and are available to the 3I for use off-world. There IS a standard - but if one looks closely at the counter mix in Invasion Earth, all the impies have homeworld based names.

Very much 19th C UK army. Expect similar uniform divergence, too.

Uh, what? I have Invasion: Earth. All the Imperial army units are numbered. Interestingly, all the colonial army units are also numbered. The merc units are named, as are a couple of colonial naval squadrons. The Solomani have a few named units.

Colonial army in both IE and FFW have units that are "imperial standard" by tech level. They are not Imperial army. They are colonial army. This "imperial army is actually local army" bit is looking a bit contradictory. FFW Colonial Army units run the gamut from TL 8 to TL15, corresponding to the TL of their homeworlds for the named units, but there are two 5c-15 numbered Colonial armies. Conversely, the Imperial Army is predominantly TL15 with ~1/6 at TL14 and none lower.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I guess my posts are falling on deaf ears.

I'll reiterate what others have posted; there's a real regular Imperial Army.

It also makes sense that there are a variety of forces available and created from planetary and local governments. That's in addition to private mercenary armies, corporate armies (possibly mercenaries, probably private security), and forces raised by nobles.

Integrating those elements is probably a non-starter, though I'm sure the real Imperial Army asks for assistance wherever it can get it, provided the forces requested can fill whatever roll is needed.

Again, would there be some equipment, heavy equipment, that the Imperial Army would have that the Marines wouldn't? The marines have starship batteries to back them up. I guess the army does as well, but the army, to my way of thinking, would need to operate independently of fleet support. What does that mean for the Imperial Army?

 

[rancke]

Could be. Could be anything: there is no 1197th in Fifth Frontier War (FFW). One 1C corps (Imperial or colonial, your choice) starts the game at Efate. So, the 1197th is wholly subsumed under that corps unit and could be anything.

That was my point. That such references to an Imperial Army could be handwaved away. However, I do not think that all references to an Imperial Army can be handwaved away, and thus I feel that the existence of an Imperial Army is well established by CT sources.

In FFW, Rhylanor hosts 500 batallions of planetary troops according to its world box. Since Rhylanor is TL15, those troops are armed to TL15. A division is 20 batallions, so Lord Bryor's statement is accurate: 25 divisions, or 500 total batallions equipped to Imperial standard.

The problem I have with FFW's rule for establishing troop sizes is that it ignores population multipliers. Thus every world with a population level of 9 has 500 battalions of planetary troops, whether it has 1 billion or 9 billion inhabitants. But once the population goes from 9 billion to 10 billion, its forces suddenly goes from 500 battalions to 5000. That seems to me to be a big fat flaw in the setting. If a world with 1 billion inhabitants has 500 battalions and one with 10 billion has 5000 battalions, then Rhylanor with its 8 billion inhabitants damn well ought to have somewhere around 4000.

Those troops, being planetary troops, can't be moved.

Good point.

MT Rebellion Sourcebook has a table which shows army size increasing with population up til about TL6, after which - perhaps because of the increasing cost of equipping the individual soldier - army size starts decreasing with increasing tech level. I recall a similar or identical table in one of the Journals around the time of the game's release.

Yes, that's in JTAS #10.

FFW predates Spinward Marches Campaign (SMC) by 4 years and Book-6/Scouts by 2 years, so the Supplement-3 pop value was all they had at the time of the game's publication.

Of course it was, and that's a perfectly good excuse on the meta-level. But that was then and this is now and today we DO know about population multipliers and a world with a multiplier of 9 has a lot more in common with a world with a level one higher and a multiplier of 1 (only 11.11% bigger population) than it has with a world of its own population level and a multiplier of 1 (900% bigger population).

Here's where things get interesting: Rhylanor, a pop-9 world, is supposed to have 5 thousand batallions, not 500. Other worlds in the game fit that table, but apparently Rhylanor was cut back for play balance; otherwise the Zho player wouldn't have a snowball's chance of taking the planet with the forces in play, which SMC makes clear was one of the Zho strategies.

Good catch. I never realized that. I've always assumed the figure was correct according to the table.

With 500 defensive battalions Rhylanor would have produced two 20-battalion mobile units. With 5000 it would have produced four 100-battalion mobile units. I wonder which option the designers went with.

Also would the existence of mobile troops imply an existing troop transport capacity capable of moving them around? I'm thinking about the reinforcements that ought to be available fairly quickly from such places as Mora, Strouden, and Lunion. Mora alone should be good for 4 TL15 5000-battalion units, held something like a couple of months transportation time from the Area of Operation.

EDIT: By the way, I'm deliberately ignoring the fact that the table is already a gross simplification of "reality". While there would be a considerable correlation between the size of populations and the size of the militaries maintained by those populations, the correlation would not be anywhere near as strong as the table makes it. There are lots of fudge factors. Populations of the same size do not necessarily have the same GWP. Worlds with the same GWP do not necessarily have the same tax rates. Worlds with the same tax rates do not necessarily spend the same percentage of taxes on the military. And worlds with the same military budgets do not necessarily divide it between their navies and their armies in the same proportions. So if a Terran-norm world with a population of 1 billion has 5000 battalions, an industrial world of the same population should have perhaps 7000 and one with no atmosphere should have perhaps 750.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

The population multiplier wasn't even a gleam in the designers eye when FFW was design - nor was the typo in SMC that lifted Regina to TL12

 

[Whipsnade]

Again, would there be some equipment, heavy equipment, that the Imperial Army would have that the Marines wouldn't? The marines have starship batteries to back them up. I guess the army does as well, but the army, to my way of thinking, would need to operate independently of fleet support. What does that mean for the Imperial Army?

The difference between the Imperial Army and the Imperial Marines is more of numbers or endurance game than a "Do Have/Don't Have" game. Neither will have capabilities the other doesn't but both will be the result of a different mixture of those same capabilities.

Think of the Teeth to Tail ratio others have already mentioned. A marine organization will have more relatively "teeth" than a comparable army unit in order to emphasize the "first to strike", "assault", "shock & awe" nature of their mission while an army unit will have more relatively "tail" than a comparable marine unit in order to emphasize the "occupy", "endurance", "grind 'em down" nature of their mission.

It's like Bisquik. The exact same ingredients in different proportions will give you biscuits, pancakes, or waffles.

 

[rancke]

The population multiplier wasn't even a gleam in the designers eye when FFW was design -

I think we've already established that. It's perfectly true, but irrelevant.

...nor was the typo in SMC that lifted Regina to TL12

The difference is that the typo made much better sense than the original version (though a TL of 13 would have made even more sense).


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

I think we've already established that. It's perfectly true, but irrelevant.

Then why do you keep mentioning it?

The difference is that the typo made much better sense than the original version (though a TL of 13 would have made even more sense).


Hans

There is too much CT canonical material with Regina as TL10. The typo should have been spotted and corrected, but then they didn't spot that they had cut and pasted the character generation tables completely incorrectly so they were unlikely to spot errors in the system data.
Now we appear to be stuck with it.

 

[rancke]

I think we've already established that. It's perfectly true, but irrelevant.

Then why do you keep mentioning it?

I only mention it when others bring it up and seem to consider it of significance. So the answer to your question is "Because others keep mentioning it".

There is too much CT canonical material with Regina as TL10.

How do you calculate how much is too much? Every iteration of the same pageful of UWPS are for all practical purposes one mention. How much canonical material is there where being TL10 or TL12 would make any difference? How many lines of canon material would require revision if one was to assume that the UWPs were in error about the TL of 10?

Could it be zero lines? (Not counting the UWPs themselves).

I think the significant canon material is the bits that show that Regina has the ability to build jump-4 ships. That makes the TL of 10 directly contradictory and in need of a post-HG retcon. That the recon came as an accident (if it was an accident) is merely fortuitous, but no less a good thing for all that.

It would have been even better if the new number had been 13, but Regina having a space tech level one level higher than its High Common TL is a lot easier to accept than that it has one three level higher.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Fifth Frontier War, Spinward Marches Supplement, Twilight's Peak, Imperial Fringe, Scouts - and that's just off the top of my head - there are probably more.

Twilight's Peak is significant, Fifth Frontier War is significant, the extended system generation example in Scouts is significant because it reinforces in 1983 that regina is TL10.

Regina at TL10 can build jump 4 ships using the CT rules it was designed as an example for - so that argument doesn't hold, good try though

But I accept it is a pointless discussion point - Regina became TL12 (in error) and has stayed that way since.