The Imperial Army

[rancke]

Fifth Frontier War, Spinward Marches Supplement, Twilight's Peak, Imperial Fringe, Scouts - and that's just off the top of my head - there are probably more.

Any of them where the difference is significant? Twilight's Peak can be played perfectly well with Regina having a TL of 12, Fifth Frontier War can be played perfectly well with Regina having a TL of 12 (though I wouldn't bother to change that myself if I was going to play FFW), the extended system generation example in Scouts would probably work perfectly well with Regina having a TL of 12. (I say 'probably' because I don't have Scouts).

Regina at TL10 can build jump 4 ships using the CT rules it was designed as an example for - so that argument doesn't hold, good try though

Which is why I said that a post-HG retcon was needed. That is to say, once the publication of HG made the Kinunir non-functional as a TL10 design, a retcon became necessary (Which Fighting Ships tried to do; pity it retconned the Kinunir into a TL15 design ). So the argument holds, just as the argument that now that the population multiplier has been introduced, it needs to be accounted for, holds.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

The difference between the Imperial Army and the Imperial Marines is more of numbers or endurance game than a "Do Have/Don't Have" game. Neither will have capabilities the other doesn't but both will be the result of a different mixture of those same capabilities.

Think of the Teeth to Tail ratio others have already mentioned. A marine organization will have more relatively "teeth" than a comparable army unit in order to emphasize the "first to strike", "assault", "shock & awe" nature of their mission while an army unit will have more relatively "tail" than a comparable marine unit in order to emphasize the "occupy", "endurance", "grind 'em down" nature of their mission.

It's like Bisquik. The exact same ingredients in different proportions will give you biscuits, pancakes, or waffles.

I guess I can see that. It's just that when I think of the Army, I think of this big behemoth of an organization with lots of men and a few big pieces of equipment to back them up. When I think of marines, I think of an impressive fighting force that strikes first, but doesn't linger very long. As such I always imagine or think of the marines as bringing grav tanks, but not artillery. Maybe a wing of strike fighters or gunships, but not COACC stuff.

Heck, I don't even know where I'm going with this.

Yeah, I get your point. No disagreement here.

I guess the real difference is that the Imperial Army wears really cool deep olive green uniforms and armor, where the marines wear camo stuff or a brighter shade of green splotches on tan or gray.

 

[Carlobrand]

The problem I have with FFW's rule for establishing troop sizes is that it ignores population multipliers. ... But that was then and this is now and today we DO know about population multipliers and a world with a multiplier of 9 has a lot more in common with a world with a level one higher and a multiplier of 1 (only 11.11% bigger population) than it has with a world of its own population level and a multiplier of 1 (900% bigger population).

FFW predates population multipliers. Therefore, FFW is best considered as outdated canon, superceded by more current rules. If I were to mine it for info, I'd independently factor in population multipliers - but as a stand-alone game, I'd probably just play it as is for simplicity's sake.

Good catch. I never realized that. I've always assumed the figure was correct according to the table.

Bad catch. I owe everyone an apology. There's a little blurb at the bottom of the table that says worlds with hostile atmospheres drop back a place on the table. Rhylanor has a tainted atmosphere, therefore falls victim to that drop-back and gets only 500 batallions. That's a heck of a big impact for not controlling your smog, in my opinion, but there it is.

With 500 defensive battalions Rhylanor would have produced two 20-battalion mobile units. With 5000 it would have produced four 100-battalion mobile units. ... Also would the existence of mobile troops imply an existing troop transport capacity capable of moving them around? I'm thinking about the reinforcements that ought to be available fairly quickly from such places as Mora, Strouden, and Lunion. Mora alone should be good for 4 TL15 5000-battalion units, held something like a couple of months transportation time from the Area of Operation.

FFW presents a number of named Colonial troop units, but it also presents quite a few numbered Colonial troop units and has several worlds (including Rhylanor) which should be contributing mobile troops but have no named units showing. Ergo, some of the worlds are raising distinct independent units, and others are merging their units under joint commands. Rhylanor's two divisions (and a 10-Bn regiment, according to the JTAS-10 table) are no doubt somewhere within one of the two 5c-15 armies. As there aren't any other TL15 worlds on the battle map, it's likely that the mobile troops of TL15 worlds from elsewhere in the sector are also represented there; Mora has 5k planetary batallions but is good for 4c mobile troop batallions according to the JTAS-10 article.

Porozlo delivers two named 5c-10 armies and a named 20-10 division, and it has its own named assault carrier squadron to carry 6c troops (well, one 5c, the 20 and whoever else is around, since you can't split troop units among squadrons) into battle; see what happens if you keep your air clean? Actually, they should be delivering 4 5c-10 armies and a 1c-10 corps - no sign of the rest, likely cut for play balance sake, so one would say they were probably serving elsewhere in the sector, maybe with the 213th in Lunion subsector. (Porozlo DOES have the expected 150k planetary batallions.)

There are other fronts as well; I expect Lunion's and Strouden's mobile troops to be working with the 213th Fleet against the Sword World forces in that subsector, per Spinward Marches Campaign.

And, yes, it's a gross oversimplification, but then that's true of all of the game elements.

 

[Carlobrand]

I guess I can see that. It's just that when I think of the Army, I think of this big behemoth of an organization with lots of men and a few big pieces of equipment to back them up. When I think of marines, I think of an impressive fighting force that strikes first, but doesn't linger very long. As such I always imagine or think of the marines as bringing grav tanks, but not artillery. Maybe a wing of strike fighters or gunships, but not COACC stuff.

Heck, I don't even know where I'm going with this.

Yeah, I get your point. No disagreement here.

I guess the real difference is that the Imperial Army wears really cool deep olive green uniforms and armor, where the marines wear camo stuff or a brighter shade of green splotches on tan or gray.

In the case of the army, the "few big pieces of equipment" are likely to be things like: cranes and heavy construction equipment associated with engineering batallions able to construct buildings, bridges, sewage facilities, hardened fortifications, nowadays computer centers, communication centers, and power generating facilities to serve them, and other equipment needed for a lengthy stay by a field-army-sized unit of troops; heavy hospital equipment for batallion-size field hospitals serving the field army; maintenance facilities allowing motor pools to conduct major repairs to the field army's vehicles; and so forth, and so forth. And of course defences for all that. These kind of things give endurance to a fighting force - at least here in the 21st century. Might be different in the far future, they might mount it all on grav vehicles of some sort for mobility (can you imagine a grav-mobile sewage plant for HQ??), but the basic idea remains the same: much more rear-area support to allow an extended stay by a very large force.

 

[Enoki]

What difference does it make if the Imperium does have an organized Army?

Because militia and short-term drafted forces tend to be much worse as combat troops than a professional military.

Some additional thoughts:

I could see the Imperium having a small professional army that is used in critical areas and is under the direct command of the Emperor and his immediate subordiantes with a much larger army that is raised by warrant locally when needed. The third tier would be local forces raised for the express purpose of defending a planet or system.

I would think these would be something like the French, British or US Army in structure. That is, there are a small number of professional units like say, an Imperial Guard, several large units of troops that are standing units of "line" quality and lots of smaller support units that require technical expertise like artillery, engineers, and such.
I could even envision a "Foreign Legion" of some sort that allows non-Imperials to join that is part of the standing military. These would be a cross between mercenaries and volunteers and because they are "foreigners" they would be seen as expendable.

The next tier would be the equivalent of Territorials or National Guard. These are local units that can be called up and are capable of serving away from home. A drafted equivalent would be possible but not all draftees would be available for off-world service. The Canadian military is this way as is the French.

The local military is raised for internal purposes only.

The professional Imperial Army would be TL 14 / 15+. It would have the latest equipment and be well trained in its use.

The Territorial / draft Army would be TL 10 to 15 depending on where it is raised and what was available to equip it when it was raised. Its TL would be moved up if the Imperial Army decided it needed to be by re-equipping and training it. Training would vary but in wartime these units would be given refresher training before being committed to combat.

The local military would be roughly the TL of the planet / system it served on / in. Training would be highly variable.

The professional Imperial Army would have professional officers and Nco's serving in it while the Territorial / Draft army would vary significantly. I would think given the presence of nobility and a class / caste system in society that many units would have political appointees based on who they were rather than on competence. Some egalitarian worlds might appoint officers and nco's by voting as an alternative.
The result would be that these units would have a very spotty performance in battle at first until issues of competence and training were sorted out. That would make playing such units interesting.

The local militaries would vary in this respect depending on their usage. On worlds where the military was respected and gave social mobility I could see it having very competent personnel in it whatever the TL might be. On other worlds with little internal or external threat the military would languish as an ill-equipped poorly manned force filled with the desperate and dregs of society.

Some of the professional units might be very prestigeous to be in. I could easily see several Imperial Guard units that take only the cream of the crop in recruits. There might be other units like special forces and such that are very demanding and hard to get recruited into as well.

 

[rancke]

FFW predates population multipliers. Therefore, FFW is best considered as outdated canon, superceded by more current rules. If I were to mine it for info, I'd independently factor in population multipliers -

Which is exactly what I propose doing. Game rules are of necessity simplified reflections of "reality". Which is fine when you're playing a game, but not so fine when you are world-building. And unfortunately the TNS newsbriefs are world-building, not gaming.

...but as a stand-alone game, I'd probably just play it as is for simplicity's sake.

I completely agree with this. Though if I were to be in charge of creating a new FFW-style boardgame for Traveller, I would probably take the multiplier into account. After all, there IS a game-affecting difference between 25 divisions and 200 divisions.

There's a little blurb at the bottom of the table that says worlds with hostile atmospheres drop back a place on the table. Rhylanor has a tainted atmosphere, therefore falls victim to that drop-back and gets only 500 batallions.

So does that reflect that equipment costs makes troops ten times more expwensive to maintain if an atmosphere is tainted or does it reflect that worlds with tainted atmospheres only spend one tenth as much on their army? Because in the second place, SDBs really ought to be increased by some factor for worlds with tainted atmospheres.

Mora has 5k planetary batallions but is good for 4c mobile troop batallions according to the JTAS-10 article.

Ah yes, Mora has a hostile atmosphere too. And so does Trin and Glisten.

There are other fronts as well; I expect Lunion's and Strouden's mobile troops to be working with the 213th Fleet against the Sword World forces in that subsector, per Spinward Marches Campaign.

There were no Sword World activity in Lunion subsector and the 213th didn't move into the Sword Worlds subsector until the very end of 1109. But you're right, the troops could have been deployed in Lunion to guard against expected Sword World activity.

And, yes, it's a gross oversimplification, but then that's true of all of the game elements.

But you need different levels of abstraction for gaming and for world-building. Using gaming-level abstractions as evidence for setting details is all right as long as one keeps that in mind, but using it as hard evidence for setting details is using one level of abstraction for someting that it's not suited for.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Something I made, today, to give a little detail to the Imperial Army, one thing I would say, is that Imperial Corps and Armies would act as "force multipliers" or in the van of the main focus point of an attack with colonial forces in a more supporting role.

 

[Carlobrand]

So does that reflect that equipment costs makes troops ten times more expwensive to maintain if an atmosphere is tainted or does it reflect that worlds with tainted atmospheres only spend one tenth as much on their army? Because in the second place, SDBs really ought to be increased by some factor for worlds with tainted atmospheres.

I think it reflects ... I think ... I ... Oh heck, I got nothing.

I can imagine it being a bit harder to raise troops and buy equipment if you were on a world with a really hostile atmosphere - exotic or corrosive or insidious. I always figured planetary troops to be heavily into combat environment suits and air-breather vehicles, they being inexpensive and pretty cost-effective for a government on a budget that doesn't need to worry about sending them anywhere else. Put them in an exotic atmosphere, and they'd have to resort to more expensive armor and equipment to perform the same roles.

However, I don't see why wearing a filter mask or adding filter equipment to your vehicle should reduce your forces by a factor of 10. I wonder what the thinking behind it was.

Nice organizational chart, Drag!

 

[McPerth]

The problem I have with FFW's rule for establishing troop sizes is that it ignores population multipliers. Thus every world with a population level of 9 has 500 battalions of planetary troops, whether it has 1 billion or 9 billion inhabitants. But once the population goes from 9 billion to 10 billion, its forces suddenly goes from 500 battalions to 5000. That seems to

True, but as I said on an earlier post, the population multipliers already were in use when MT was published, and no mention to them was made in this table (page 37, Rebellion Sourcebook).

 

[Enoki]

Something I made, today, to give a little detail to the Imperial Army, one thing I would say, is that Imperial Corps and Armies would act as "force multipliers" or in the van of the main focus point of an attack with colonial forces in a more supporting role.

While "grav cycles" sounds cool, I'd think reconnissance would be either a heavy unit that can fight for it or, it would be accomplished by remotes and satellites.
I'd also think that it was critical for them to have an attached construction engineer battalion for building infrastructure like a base for the troops to live in, command posts, bunkers, etc. It might include a company or even an attached assault engineer / pioneer unit for demolition and combat engineering.
I'd also think that the signals section would be fairly large. It would have to include battlefield computers and the integration that goes with it. A wire / fiber unit I would think was part of it as well (secure communications).

 

[Dragoner]

While "grav cycles" sounds cool, I'd think reconnissance would be either a heavy unit that can fight for it or, it would be accomplished by remotes and satellites.
I'd also think that it was critical for them to have an attached construction engineer battalion for building infrastructure like a base for the troops to live in, command posts, bunkers, etc. It might include a company or even an attached assault engineer / pioneer unit for demolition and combat engineering.
I'd also think that the signals section would be fairly large. It would have to include battlefield computers and the integration that goes with it. A wire / fiber unit I would think was part of it as well (secure communications).

The Gravcycle battalion is more for traffic control/security/etc., as the brigades have their own organic recon battalion. Many different units may be attached from an army or even theater level, such as artillery, drop troops, signals, service and medical units, though the Imperial Army, due to constraints on size because of the need for interstellar mobility, would depend on many colonial component forces being service units, thus freeing the colonial units from the need to procure and maintain high tech combat equipment. This chart is just to show an example of a mech corps, many units operate as independent brigades or regiments, some attached to higher organizations, some operating independently.

Together, it is the combination of the Imperial Army working with local forces that allow the whole to punch above it's weight.

 

[Blue Ghost]

In the case of the army, the "few big pieces of equipment" are likely to be things like: cranes and heavy construction equipment associated with engineering batallions able to construct buildings, bridges, sewage facilities, hardened fortifications, nowadays computer centers, communication centers, and power generating facilities to serve them, and other equipment needed for a lengthy stay by a field-army-sized unit of troops; heavy hospital equipment for batallion-size field hospitals serving the field army; maintenance facilities allowing motor pools to conduct major repairs to the field army's vehicles; and so forth, and so forth. And of course defences for all that. These kind of things give endurance to a fighting force - at least here in the 21st century. Might be different in the far future, they might mount it all on grav vehicles of some sort for mobility (can you imagine a grav-mobile sewage plant for HQ??), but the basic idea remains the same: much more rear-area support to allow an extended stay by a very large force.

*nods in agreement*

That makes total sense. The army is there for the long haul. Marines are ferried about in ships, can make camp, but are more mobile because they're "needed" aboard cruisers, destroyers, BBs, FFs and so on. So the army comes prepared to make the amenities that marines would normally get on board the really huge, luxurious and cool looking Sylean Class Battleship. Whereas the army needs to build, dig in, and create amenities for its troops, AND fight at the same time.

I suppose one could argue that the marines and navy would have their version of Imperial Seabeas or something, but the marines always strike me having less staying power than the army.

Some superficial differences; the Imperial Army probably has less flash than the Imperial Marines. The Marines are "highly motivated", mobile, and have that battledress thing going for them. While the Army probably has a variety of armors for the troops, environment depending, is big, lumbersome on occasion, and doesn't fly around in fancy navy ships.

 

[BillDowns]

Something I made, today, to give a little detail to the Imperial Army, one thing I would say, is that Imperial Corps and Armies would act as "force multipliers" or in the van of the main focus point of an attack with colonial forces in a more supporting role.

Seems light for a division, much less a corps. IMO, a proper division would have these plus an "aviation" brigade, battallions for Medical, Engineers, Ordnance, Quartermasters and then company-level assets such as Intelligence, MPs. I am guessing the "grav-cycles" are Recon?

 

[Dragoner]

Seems light for a division, much less a corps. IMO, a proper division would have these plus an "aviation" brigade, battallions for Medical, Engineers, Ordnance, Quartermasters and then company-level assets such as Intelligence, MPs. I am guessing the "grav-cycles" are Recon?

Much of it would be organic to the brigades, division is a largely obsolete formation, except for certain units, such as Rifle Divisions, thus the brigades can be separated for work on different planets. Here is an earlier post:

The Gravcycle battalion is more for traffic control/security/etc., as the brigades have their own organic recon battalion. Many different units may be attached from an army or even theater level, such as artillery, drop troops, signals, service and medical units, though the Imperial Army, due to constraints on size because of the need for interstellar mobility, would depend on many colonial component forces being service units, thus freeing the colonial units from the need to procure and maintain high tech combat equipment. This chart is just to show an example of a mech corps, many units operate as independent brigades or regiments, some attached to higher organizations, some operating independently.

Together, it is the combination of the Imperial Army working with local forces that allow the whole to punch above it's weight.

 

[Dragoner]

I dunno...

148-1106⑆Efate (Spinward Marches 1705)

¶Reliable sources in the defense establishment have admitted in private that the Imperial Army's 1197th Separate Light Infantry Brigade has been engaged in counter-insurgency operations in the Vandere district of Kormoron (Efate's northern continent) for the last eight months. When asked to comment on Rear-Admiral Lord Santanocheev's recent claim that no Imperial army or marine units had been committed, they declined
​

The unit in question, I don't think I can go smaller than this without killing one's eyes.

edit: 3rd revision, added trepidas and took out vrf gg's because I figure the unit is vrf gg g carrier equiped as standard.

 

[rancke]

True, but as I said on an earlier post, the population multipliers already were in use when MT was published, and no mention to them was made in this table (page 37, Rebellion Sourcebook).

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

I think he's saying that the MT table gives the same troop numbers as the FFW table, despite the fact that MT used population multipliers.

I haven't checked yet, but that appears to be the claim.

 

[rancke]

I think he's saying that the MT table gives the same troop numbers as the FFW table, despite the fact that MT used population multipliers.

Yes, but I don't get the point of the point, then.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

At the point in the discussion where it was brought up you said you thought a retcon of FFW should base troop numbers off the planetary population including population multipliers.

MT includes population multipliers as standard but still gives the same troop numbers per world as the FFW tables do - therefore implying that the population multiplier has no affect on troop numbers so the FFW numbers are correct.

I think I agree with you - if population multipliers are used then they should have an affect on troop numbers. The authors of MT took a different view - or just didn't think of it.

 

[Carlobrand]

I think I agree with you - if population multipliers are used then they should have an affect on troop numbers. The authors of MT took a different view - or just didn't think of it.

I'm inclined to think the latter. MT is rife with errata.