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The Imperial Corridor Fleet

David, I mostly agree. MgT:ST also gives the navy authority over the fleet not nobles. That being said some nobles may have more pull. I take MgT with a grain of salt. ;)

Lemish is not TLF. Typically the bases are located near the starport to protect it. However, there is not evidence telling us they do not have secondary bases in system. It has even been stated that the highest base of an entity is identified.

Hi,

I could be wrong but I thought I remembered something from the CT era about naval bases been TLF and having the capability to build & repair all naval ships.

I could see some Escorts been allocated to anti-piracy, trade & customs and based at Lemish downport, with a big recruitment office to give all those bored farm boys something to do. with their lives.

Regards

David
 
Given how poor the Corridor area is, their local fleets were probably understrength at best; many places may not have even had them (it's my opinion that while Imperial rules may have required a given system to have a local navy of X size for local defense and so on, actual compliance probably varies/varied pretty widely). That was fine while the powerful Corridor Fleet was around.

The Imperium maintains the Reserve Fleets. So while ships may come from local Planetary Navies, the Imperium stations Colonial Squadrons either way.

The Rebellion rolls around, and Lucan pulls the fleets out of Corridor; given the dire need for ships, the relative lack of value in Corridor, the self-sufficiency of the Marches, and Lucan's results oriented personality, it's likely that when Lucan pulls out the Corridor Fleet, the main fleet, the reserve fleet, in fact any fleet where the Imperium footed the bill - which is likely a lot of ships. Yes, it'd be very unpopular with the people in Corridor, but Lucan seems to be more the type of, "I'll take these ships, knock Dulinor out of the war, then we'll come back and mop up the Vargr."

I can definitely see Lucan ordering the Reserve Fleets, but Survival Margin does note that the Corridor Fleet was leaving defense of the sector in the "capable hands" of the Reserve Fleet.

Also, orders to the sector fleets came very early in the Rebellion. Probably Lucan thought his assembled fleets would be sufficient. By the time he had to scrape for distant Reserve Fleets, Corridor was probably inaccessible and disloyal to boot.
 
Vargr TL?

Hi,

sorry been worrying about all those TL F Vargr worlds, when did the Vargr get TLF?

I thought from 5FW the Vargr were a couple of TL's below the Imperium, did anyone proof read Corridor when it was randomly generated?

Regards

David
 
I've done some research into Corridor and its nature for my own TNE spin-off game. As a caveat, I haven't done as much as many posters on this thread.
it's poor - they don't have the kind of economic power like other areas of Imperium - the Spinward Marches, usually seen as the last true "frontier" is economically much more robust than Corridor. Types of economy that don't really show up in typical 3I economic analyses - interstellar trade - make Corridor even more poor - Corridor is pretty awful territory for the "small ship" J-1 merchants. In fact, even accepting the reality of the huge "container ship" traders that would logically exist in a "big ship" universe ... there's not much reason to send such superhaulers through Corridor on their way to the Marches (with stops along the way); the Marches are pretty economically independent and the transit fees of shipping stuff from the rest of the Imperium to the Marches can't be economical.

My conclusion is that Corridor is the Hadrian's Wall of the 3I (or "was" for my purposes). It didn't need to be done that way. The Imperium could have done things different and likely more cheaply and it'd have been as effective (or moreso). that when Lucan pulls out the Corridor Fleet, the main fleet, the reserve fleet, in fact any fleet where the Imperium footed the bill - which is likely a lot of ships. Yes, it'd be very unpopular with the people in Corridor, but Lucan seems to be more the type of, "I'll take these ships, knock Dulinor out of the war, then we'll come back and mop up the Vargr."
They find an empty, abandoned depot with lots of mostly scrapped husks; everything else including empty hulls that might be useful somehow were probably towed off. The idealistic answer would be remaining ships would be served by local resources, not by the Depot, the reality is that those systems would just have to "make do."

Corridor, less heavily populated subsectors and less subsectors. Poor is relative. There are some nice worlds within this sector. More than likely it is heavily involved in Vargr trade. Not being J1 friendly is not an economic show stopper. Traveller has J2 and J3 traders. Also the capital reaches TL16 which is not the sign of a poor region. Vargr trade should have been very active. We have little understanding of corsair behavior above a 400dt craft. And unfortunately, a pathetic view of Vargr society.:CoW: Compare it to 3rd world countries bordering our first world countries today. They're getting fat and they like it. When the flow stops they get upset.

There is no evidence that Depot was robbed blind by the locals. Lucan stripped it of the fleet and every other fleet he could get. In fact, there is evidence that suggests it was wealthy when the Vargr arrived. :smirk:

Of course, you have your opinion but I see more evidence to the contrary. I suggest re-reading the thread.
 
Hi,

I could be wrong but I thought I remembered something from the CT era about naval bases been TLF and having the capability to build & repair all naval ships.

I could see some Escorts been allocated to anti-piracy, trade & customs and based at Lemish downport, with a big recruitment office to give all those bored farm boys something to do. with their lives.

Regards

David
Yeah. CT says that A starports can repair and build ships. The quantity and type are based in TL and population of the world. Other references give allow+1TL for cutting edge research, etc. The one to 10 million of Lemish may not keep up production as well as Kaasu.

However, MT suggest that the Navy deployed hardware to worlds at the appropriate tech level. WHAT? you might say.
Yeah. Fighting Ships shows the same designs produced at different tech levels. If we read between the lines that has multiple meanings.

Did the Vargr TL go up after Rebellion? They may not have had time to digest the technology before Virus cleaned house.
 
Good point Hans. I should have opened CT:FS before commenting about the Plankwell. I'll need to revisit DG's comments on mothballing but there are different levels of decommissioning/ reserves/ mothballing. That was my main point.
The only rules for differentiated levels of mothballing I know of was some that I worked out for a TCS game run by Steve Higginbotham. They gave three or four different possibilities each with their own percentage cost and time to reactivate. Unfortunately, I've long ago lost the file.

MgT: ST "... most of the battleship and cruiser strength of the Colonial Navy is held at naval bases and depots by the Fleet Reserve. Skeleton crews maintain these ‘mothballed’ ships which can be crewed by reservists when needed and sent to join the Sector and Subsector fleets."
As I said above, ST appears to have an agenda that makes it rather suspect as a source of definite information.

(That's not to say that some of what it says can't be acceptable.)

Our problem is semantics? Mothballed is slang.
Call it "laid up in ordinary" if you like. It's a longer way of saying the same thing.

The problem is that the same term is used for different things and some things are referred to by different terms and that some terms overlap other terms.

I've pointed out one major example: The difference between "reserve fleet" and MT's (and presumably MgT's too) Reserve Fleet, to no apparent avail, since people cheerfully use any reference to either indiscriminately.

Still, we have a high tech ship moved to Reserves. That screams budget issues.

No, as I pointed out more than once before, we have a squadron moved from one location to another. Said squadron would presumably cost the very same to maintain in either place1. The only budget issues would be that the cost would come out of two different budgets. However, since the fleet that lost the squadron of Plankwells most likely got another squadron in its place, those concerns are likely not germane. Especially since the decision to move a squadron from a fleet in one sector to a fleet in another sector is presumably made at the Admiralty on Capital.
1 No, come to think about it, it is probably more expensive to maintain a squadron in Corridor than elsewhere, due to the logistics problems. But since another squadron was probably transferred out to make room for the Plankwells, the issue is moot.
I propose that Corridor was not the winner at the budget negotiations. SM, Solomani rim areas, Gateway ajoining sectors cried louder.
Corridor is 12 fleets over average. I'd say it was a very big winner. Especially with the additional logistics costs it would take to maintain those extra fleets.

However, the Depot was stated to be the largest, best for this very reason. That is where the sector's Grand Admirals put the credits.

Grand admirals seem to have been kept at Capital since the end of the Civil War. The rank 'sector admiral' is presumably called that because that's the rank that sector admirals (the posts) have.


Hans
 
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In any case 5+ months to ready them? And that's after reports of Vargr attack, analysis, decision and orders?
I think the stay-at-homes would begin reactivating ships the day the fleets left. Not only would it not be a feat of outstanding intelligence to predict that there would be a need for more warships in the not too distant future, they also have all that free shipyard capacity that had been sheduled to be used to maintain 20 fleets' worth of warships. In five months they'd already have finished reactivating the second lot and begun on the third. All rules for modifying costs and times for building ships apply to reactivating ships. IIRC you can halve building time by using double and triple shifts. That's the first lot in 2½ month. After that, you get the 20% familiarity bonus, so that's two months for the second lot.

Now, how big each lot would be is a question. To maintain 20 fleets, you need shipyard capacity enough for 0.8 fleet at a time. Doubling up on capacity to finish in half the time would mean working on 0.4 fleet's worth of ships at a time. Ignoring the differences between cruisers and battleships and ignoring the small fry, that would be 25 combat vessels per lot.

The Vargr have been and gone, eaten your lunch, dinner and raided your fridge for leftovers.
You have to admire the efficiency and organization of the Brotherhood of Vargr Corsairs. To assemble and coordinate a fleet capable of going after the toughest target in Corridor in just five months is a true achievement.

Me, I would expect the rumors to circulate for weeks before some of the existing corsair bands decided to check it out. Vargr corsair bands being notoriously weak, they would go after weak targets at first. Coming back to their bases flush with loot, the rumors would grow stronger and percolate back to the big worlds, where some naval officers would decide to take an unscheduled unsanctioned leave of absence and go try their luck. Arriving at corsair bases they might find others like themselves and band together in lots strong enough to go after medium strong targets. Some would go after targets that proved too strong and get a bloody snout. Others would have success. The learning curve would probably be steep. Eventually, some of them would be strong enough to start eying the tough targets. And when enough of them had tried their teeth on tough targets, some might begin looking at the really tough ones. That's when Depot could expect visitors to come calling.

But all this sounds to me like it would take a good deal longer than five measly months.


Hans
 
A lot of good stuff excised for brevity, please read all of what epicenter wrote
As for the Depot, to me, without the fleet to service, it's likely anything that isn't bolted down in the Corridor depot is taken. In fact, by the time the Corridor fleet is taken, things have gotten pretty dire - they probably took a lot of stuff that was bolted down as well (with all that cheap fusion power and anti-gravity, the definition of "bolted down" doesn't encompass as much). A lot of those even "fixed" facilities would be pretty useful in areas where the fighting had destroyed it all. The Vargr poking around don't find a Depot with a massive contingent of mothballed ships. They find an empty, abandoned depot with lots of mostly scrapped husks; everything else including empty hulls that might be useful somehow were probably towed off. The idealistic answer would be remaining ships would be served by local resources, not by the Depot, the reality is that those systems would just have to "make do."
Machine shops and fabbers would possibly be stripped. The acadamies and training commands would probably be left in place to recruit and train replacements. But if Lucan is to have any serious hope of retaking Corridor after Dulinor, he will need to leave behind some infractructure, even if mothballed. Something just to hold Depot. Having to retake Depot will just make things that more difficult and embarrassing for the Emperor.

Lucan was nuts though.

The pulling of the Corridor fleet may have been part of a larger plan. A show of force against the Vargr, to remind the folks in Corridor how much they need the Imperium, (even though the Imperium abandoned them in the first place.) It is possible he figured that retaking Corridor would scare back the Vargr and make the increasing independent Denebians and Spinward Marchers more compliant. And it might have worked if Dulinor hadn't proven so resistant, and a slight computer glitch caused a few problems.
 
I think the stay-at-homes would begin reactivating ships the day the fleets left. Not only would it not be a feat of outstanding intelligence to predict that there would be a need for more warships in the not too distant future, they also have all that free shipyard capacity that had been sheduled to be used to maintain 20 fleets' worth of warships. In five months they'd already have finished reactivating the second lot and begun on the third.

Kind of like California gearing up after the closure of the Long Beach Naval Station? Or did they just plain rent it to the Vargr, oops Communist China?
 
Kind of like California gearing up after the closure of the Long Beach Naval Station? Or did they just plain rent it to the Vargr, oops Communist China?
Since there's no real similarity between the two situations (the entire US navy still being around when the LBNS closed), I'm going to go with 'no' for my answer.


Hans
 
Why are we worrying? Obviously Corridor is in good hands.:devil:
It's not a dichotomy, Michael. Corridor can be in big trouble without being utterly defenseless.

And more than half of my problem with the canon description of events lies with the Unstoppable Vargr Juggernaut, not the Hapless Corridor Defenders.


Hans
 
It's not a dichotomy, Michael. Corridor can be in big trouble without being utterly defenseless.

And more than half of my problem with the canon description of events lies with the Unstoppable Vargr Juggernaut, not the Hapless Corridor Defenders.
Hans

Corridor is a amazement by itself. To impoverished, to vulnerable, to underpopulated, etc.

All in all I'm not buying an "Unstoppable Vargr Juggernaut", just a Vargr Juggernaut, drunk, smoking crack, on PCP, dropping Acid and using Bath Salts. They'll run roughshod for a while but ANY time the Imperil Government gets serious, like any stray dogs, they will be rounded up and euthanized.

I believe more sage heads among the Vargr know this and highly doubt that any serious numbers of Vargr warships (Naval) will be used, unless, the IN appears to be in a position of TOTAL retaliation. Then the Vargr have no choice but to wage the best war they can and seek an armistice before annihilation.

It's all fine to turn a blind eye to corsair raids, knowing only those crews and ships will be lost. It gets rid of the warlike, unstable and less than mature members of the species. (Much like American Indian Chiefs did after the tribes were forced onto the reservations.)

Those Chiefs knew the tribes could be utterly destroyed by the US Cavalry, but that would only happen if raids were to big and bloody. As it was both the Chiefs and the Cavalry had their jobs made easier by the small raids of lesser, but ambitious, Chiefs.
 
It's not a dichotomy, Michael. Corridor can be in big trouble without being utterly defenseless.

And more than half of my problem with the canon description of events lies with the Unstoppable Vargr Juggernaut, not the Hapless Corridor Defenders.


Hans
Specifically, what I would like is 1) a break down of the 60th and 105th fleets, how many squadrons and ships I can expect insystem at any time before 1116. Of course afterwards, those assets are gone. The idea is that I can build an encounter table, and maybe flesh out one or two ships for encounters.

2) I need to know what Lemish assets are available. And several of you have been extremely helpful in that regard. You mentioned somewhere around 7.6 system defense boats (for a population of 1 million, vice 1.99 million and there might be a rationale for doing it your way, depending which raid kills 1 million Lemishi.)

I found a passage in Sector Fleets that mentions the Imperium supplimenting key systems colonial forces, and it seems reasonable that Lemish would be supplimented, but again, once Lucan's order hits Corridor, those assets would likely evaporate. Still for game purposes, working those assets out might would be worthwhile.

Hey now, watch who you are calling a MORAN.:D

First step is to look over what one has to defend, what else in the system needs protecting. While the bulk of forces would need to patrol between the 100 D limit, the gas giant, and Lemish, there are other rocks out there.

3) Work out the Vargr forces and likely strategery they used. There is some indication they played sneaky in several of their raids. That would be a fun thing to game out.

Rebellion Sourcebook: Lucan issues orders to Corridor on 095-1117. Corridor receives the orders on 221-1117. Fleet assembles at Depot on 242-1117. "Later that year, several Vargr raiding expeditions made tentative forays into the sector.When they met only minimal opposition, they grew bolder and others followed. Express boat traffic came to a halt. Merchants ships cancelled their scheduled routes through the sector. By the end of 1117, Corridor was in chaos."

There are possibly two issues going on here. Not just the fact the Vargr were unstoppable, but likely the panic that set in when the Imperium abandoned Corridor. A couple of initial successes by the Vargr, the idea that things are going so badly with the rest of the galaxy. If I recall there is some mention of some systems simply surrendering. Weyland's 300 population and all but abandoned naval base probably didn't say much when the Vargr arrived. That base alone would be priceless to the Vargr's efforts against Lemish. The possession would also be psychologically shocking to the rest of the sector.

By the time Weyland is taken, Tamilee is under assault and then threatened from Sutton. From Weyland, you can threaten Ginning. It is easy to see how the initial successes would lead to wide spread panic as word got out.
 
It's all fine to turn a blind eye to corsair raids, knowing only those crews and ships will be lost. It gets rid of the warlike, unstable and less than mature members of the species. (Much like American Indian Chiefs did after the tribes were forced onto the reservations.)

Those Chiefs knew the tribes could be utterly destroyed by the US Cavalry, but that would only happen if raids were to big and bloody. As it was both the Chiefs and the Cavalry had their jobs made easier by the small raids of lesser, but ambitious, Chiefs.
In this case, the cavalry left the settlers high and dry. Those "more warlike, unstable" ones will have a couple of early successes, which can throw the rest of the Imperials into a panic. That will increase the warleader's charisma, accelerating the draw of coursairs.

Vland refuses to send their fleets and declares independence themselves. Even if the Imperium returns, it will have to battle its way to Vland first, giving the Vargr plenty of time to raid and make peace. Deneb has its own issues to deal with and won't contest the Vargr until the time of Virus. To the Vargr, it looks like the Cavalry have packed up and gone elsewhere, never to return. To many of the imperials in corridor, it looks a heck of a lot like that as well.
 
Specifically, what I would like is 1) a break down of the 60th and 105th fleets, how many squadrons and ships I can expect insystem at any time before 1116.
Regular IN fleets have 8-10 squadrons of 6-8 ships for an average of 63 ships (or 62½). So much is canon. Of these, I think (based on the FFW countermix) that two or three will be BatRons, six or seven will be CruRons, and there may or may not be a specialist squadron such as a TankRon or an AssRon (excuse me, AssaultRon ;;)). A squadron consists of 3 or 4 identical divisions. A division is two identical combat vessels plus whatever auxiliaries such a formation would need. Getting further into speculation territory, other auxiliaries may be attached to HQ, such as half a dozen squadrons of Fleet Couriers, perhaps some jump-4 and jump-2 couriers, lots of transport ships and escorts for same, repair and recovery ships, hospital ships, and no doubt I've forgotten some -- there was a thread about auxiliaries not so long ago.

Many of these ships would stick mostly to the base they're assigned to and wouldn't show up on encounter tables. I do think patrols will be somewhat more powerful than the ones suggested in an early CT book. ;)

I found a passage in Sector Fleets that mentions the Imperium supplementing key systems colonial forces, and it seems reasonable that Lemish would be supplemented, but again, once Lucan's order hits Corridor, those assets would likely evaporate.
The logistical support for those assets would no doubt evaporate, but unless Lucan had thought to mention them explicitly they would be part of the planetary navies and not subject to being removed.

First step is to look over what one has to defend, what else in the system needs protecting. While the bulk of forces would need to patrol between the 100 D limit, the gas giant, and Lemish, there are other rocks out there.
The population of Lemish is so small that it is probably too weak to defend itself (I really can't fathom what the emperor who made Lemish a duchy was thinking).

Rebellion Sourcebook: Lucan issues orders to Corridor on 095-1117. Corridor receives the orders on 221-1117. Fleet assembles at Depot on 242-1117.
Orders arrive at Sector Capital Kaasu on 221-1117. Kouth lies 13 parsecs further spinwards, so orders would not reach it until three weeks later. Assuming the 30th and 31st Fleets are ready to depart at a moment's notice (Yeah, right...), they would move at the speed of their slowest components, probably J3 battleships, so they would reach Depot seven jumps later. I can't see them reach Depot until 298-1117 at the earliest. Those of you with military experience can better judge how likely that sort of promptness is.

"Later that year, several Vargr raiding expeditions made tentative forays into the sector.When they met only minimal opposition, they grew bolder and others followed.
All that is plausible enough. But I think that those tentative forays would be by weak forces against weak targets. And those ships have to move back and forth from Corsair bases. The big cruiser-sized opportunists that show up later would take time to get into the act.

Express boat traffic came to a halt. Merchants ships cancelled their scheduled routes through the sector. By the end of 1117, Corridor was in chaos."
Far far too early for that. X-boat activity might well cease if their budget is cut, but merchants go by safer detours from well-defended system to well-defended system. Transportation becomes more expensive and some ships move elsewhere, but others keep on trucking. By the end of 1117 Corridor would have been getting really worried, that's all.

There are possibly two issues going on here. Not just the fact the Vargr were unstoppable, but likely the panic that set in when the Imperium abandoned Corridor. A couple of initial successes by the Vargr, the idea that things are going so badly with the rest of the galaxy. If I recall there is some mention of some systems simply surrendering.
Small defenseless populations would have to surrender and welcome their new Vargr overlords (For as long as the Vargr stuck around). But the 99% of the population that live on high-population worlds wouldn't panic and it wouldn't change much if they did -- there's no way any significant number of them can leave (the number of millionaires and billionaires and trillionaires might suffer a drastic reduction).

Weyland's 300 population and all but abandoned naval base probably didn't say much when the Vargr arrived. That base alone would be priceless to the Vargr's efforts against Lemish. The possession would also be psychologically shocking to the rest of the sector.
Without logistical support naval bases might have to be abandoned, but hopefully sheer acquisitiveness would make the Khukish System Defense help with the evacuation of personnel and any equipment that wasn't cemented in place. Still, mistakes happen, so if you WANT the Vargr to capture an intact base, an explanation is perfectly possible.

By the time Weyland is taken, Tamilee is under assault and then threatened from Sutton. From Weyland, you can threaten Ginning. It is easy to see how the initial successes would lead to wide spread panic as word got out.
You talk as if the Vargr are mounting a war of conquest. Vargr are plunderers. Once they've taken a place and looted it, why (and how) are they going to stick around and become rulers of the place?


'We have a saying, O Prince, " Kenneth-Hollard said. "That... ah.. novices talk of the clash of arms, and experienced warriors speak of supplies."

"That is true; it cannot be denied!" Kashtiliash agreed.

They not only have wonderful weapons, but they understand how weapons should be used, he thought with relief -- he must tell his father of this. That was the difference between a civilized realm like Babylon and mountain tribesmen or Aramaean sand-thieves; the scribes and storehouses and skilled men to keep bread and beer and salt fish, fresh horses and arrowheads, flowing out to the armies in the field. And the silver to keep soldiers longer than the smell of loot, and the engineers to build fortresses and bridges.' [Against the Tide of Years by S.M. Stirling]

"Vargr speak of glory and plunder; Imperials speak of logistics." [Old IN saying]​


Hans
 
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balaklava submarine base

Here's an interesting REAL LIFE happenstance in time of peace and no hasty evacuation.

Balaklava submarine base

"But the last ship left port way back in 1995, leaving behind memories of a more tense and warlike time, a few cigarette butts, a crushed beer can or two and, oh yeah, a couple of nuclear SS-N-23 Skiff ballistic missiles that were forgotten in a rusting sub for years before the Russians ever noticed them."

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_1944...-you-wont-believe-are-real.html#ixzz2qnQBkY7v


http://books.google.com/books?id=mM...#v=onepage&q=balaklava submarine base&f=false
 
"But the last ship left port way back in 1995, leaving behind memories of a more tense and warlike time, a few cigarette butts, a crushed beer can or two and, oh yeah, a couple of nuclear SS-N-23 Skiff ballistic missiles that were forgotten in a rusting sub for years before the Russians ever noticed them."
So? Mistakes happen. How many bases have been abandoned without any nuclear missiles being left behind?


Hans
 
DG Journal has a good article on Mothballed fleets.

No, as I pointed out more than once before, we have a squadron moved from one location to another. Said squadron would presumably cost the very same to maintain in either place1. The only budget issues would be that the cost would come out of two different budgets. However, since the fleet that lost the squadron of Plankwells most likely got another squadron in its place, those concerns are likely not germane. Especially since the decision to move a squadrom from a fleet in one sector to a fleet in another sector is presumably made at the Admiralty on Capital.
1 No, come to think about it, it is probably more expensive to maintain a squadron in Corridor than elsewhere, due to the logistics problems. But since another squadron was probably transferred out to make room for the Plankwells, the issue is moot.

Corridor is 12 fleets over average. I'd say it was a very big winner. Especially with the additional logistics costs it would take to maintain those extra fleets.
That is a good perspective.

Grand admirals seem to have been kept at Capital since the end of the Civil War. The rank 'sector admiral' is presumably called that because that's the rank that sector admirals (the posts) have.


Hans
Here is where MgT has an agenda. I think they underestimate the paperwork. Sector Admiral and named Fleet Admiral should be different positions
.
 
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