The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[aramis]

Here is where MgT has an agenda. I think they underestimate the paperwork. Sector Admiral and named Fleet Admiral should be different positions
.

It may instead look like certain periods of US and UK history - the commanding officer of record was the paperwork man, while a competent tactician fought the fleet for him. And other cases, the opposite; the CO of record was the combat man, and he had a competent admin guy doing almost all the admin, and just leaving him to fight the fleet. (Worst of all, a few cases, a General was fleet commander... and knew neither the paperwork nor how to fight the fleet.)

 

[rancke]

Here is where MgT has an agenda. I think they underestimate the paperwork. Sector Admiral and named Fleet Admiral should be different positions.

I don't see why. The Sector Admiral would command all the fleets in the sector. So would the Admiral of the Corridor Fleet. If they ARE different posts, the Sector Admiral would be the senior of the two.

I do believe that there are more posts for sector admirals than just Sector Admiral. Deputy sector admiral and perhaps another per four fleets. Plus some specialist sector admirals like the Surgeon General of Corridor Sector, the Judge Advocate General of Corridor Sector and so on.

Corridor Sector would have one or two more sector admirals to command the Corridor Response Fleet.

I once calculated that an average Imperial fleet has about the same number of shipboard berths as the entire US Navy and believe that it would need about the same number of groundside personnel to support them and consequently the same number of general officers as the US Navy has (possbly a bit less, since I've been told that the USN is over-officered (OTOH, who says the IN isn't similarily over-officered? ). And on top of that you'd need a sector-level group of admirals.


Hans

 

[savage]

I don't see why. The Sector Admiral would command all the fleets in the sector. So would the Admiral of the Corridor Fleet. If they ARE different posts, the Sector Admiral would be the senior of the two.

I do believe that there are more posts for sector admirals than just Sector Admiral. Deputy sector admiral and perhaps another per four fleets. Plus some specialist sector admirals like the Surgeon General of Corridor Sector, the Judge Advocate General of Corridor Sector and so on.

Corridor Sector would have one or two more sector admirals to command the Corridor Response Fleet.

I once calculated that an average Imperial fleet has about the same number of shipboard berths as the entire US Navy and believe that it would need about the same number of groundside personnel to support them and consequently the same number of general officers as the US Navy has (possbly a bit less, since I've been told that the USN is over-officered (OTOH, who says the IN isn't similarily over-officered? ). And on top of that you'd need a sector-level group of admirals.


Hans

MgT is just posting its view of the Imperium. Sometimes MgT gets negative feedback when that happens. I really don't see why. I liked it when QLI had an opinion and wrote it, well with one exception.

Yes, I heard today that the US Navy has interesting staffing behavior. I suspect the INS would do the same. I think the posts are really the choices of the Emperor and his Grand Admiral. I see the Sector Admiral as an administrative role (I won't go into details here) with a named Fleet Admiral,
Colonial Admiral (often dealing with client states), and several other non-fleet posts associated operations. I would not split hairs, but I have an extra layer of Admiralty IMTU. Named Fleet Admiral needs certain functions for a quick response Fleet and cannot be burdened with other details. On that point I believe the Named Fleet Admiral is your Deputy Sector Admiral.

 

[savage]

A lot of good stuff excised for brevity, please read all of what epicenter wrote Machine shops and fabbers would possibly be stripped. The acadamies and training commands would probably be left in place to recruit and train replacements. But if Lucan is to have any serious hope of retaking Corridor after Dulinor, he will need to leave behind some infractructure, even if mothballed. Something just to hold Depot. Having to retake Depot will just make things that more difficult and embarrassing for the Emperor.

Lucan was nuts though.

The pulling of the Corridor fleet may have been part of a larger plan. A show of force against the Vargr, to remind the folks in Corridor how much they need the Imperium, (even though the Imperium abandoned them in the first place.) It is possible he figured that retaking Corridor would scare back the Vargr and make the increasing independent Denebians and Spinward Marchers more compliant. And it might have worked if Dulinor hadn't proven so resistant, and a slight computer glitch caused a few problems.

Once again. A security fleet, training fleet, and numerous assets. Not to mention very formidable planetary/system defenses. We discussed this in detail earlier along with the naval assets at Lemish. No reason to rehash.

Here is the thing. I don't believe the Sector and Fleet Admirals would have sent an entire Named Fleet to Lucan. I think that many would have been a bit more than concerned at leaving families behind to plunge into civil war.

 

[Vladika]

Once again. A security fleet, training fleet, and numerous assets. Not to mention very formidable planetary/system defenses. We discussed this in detail earlier along with the naval assets at Lemish. No reason to rehash.

Here is the thing. I don't believe the Sector and Fleet Admirals would have sent an entire Named Fleet to Lucan. I think that many would have been a bit more than concerned at leaving families behind to plunge into civil war.

They, in all likelihood, got around some of this by claiming "Not currently fit for deployment" or "currently laid up for refit and repair". Military commanders do have political masters but they aren't stupid.

Still, from what I've read about Vargr corsairs, IN escort vessels could handle them nicely.

 

[savage]

It may instead look like certain periods of US and UK history - the commanding officer of record was the paperwork man, while a competent tactician fought the fleet for him. And other cases, the opposite; the CO of record was the combat man, and he had a competent admin guy doing almost all the admin, and just leaving him to fight the fleet. (Worst of all, a few cases, a General was fleet commander... and knew neither the paperwork nor how to fight the fleet.)

I think two common phobias occur in every military at one point or another. 1. a "recession" mentality. I need to take care of my guys. 2. This guy will not backstab me. I can trust him or he'll need me too much to betray me.

Either way, the Rebellion is a perfect time for this mentality. Especially, when a war has not occurred for some time.

 

[savage]

I found a passage in Sector Fleets that mentions the Imperium supplimenting key systems colonial forces, and it seems reasonable that Lemish would be supplimented, but again, once Lucan's order hits Corridor, those assets would likely evaporate. Still for game purposes, working those assets out might would be worthwhile.

Rebellion Sourcebook: Lucan issues orders to Corridor on 095-1117. Corridor receives the orders on 221-1117. Fleet assembles at Depot on 242-1117. "Later that year, several Vargr raiding expeditions made tentative forays into the sector.When they met only minimal opposition, they grew bolder and others followed. Express boat traffic came to a halt. Merchants ships cancelled their scheduled routes through the sector. By the end of 1117, Corridor was in chaos."

There are possibly two issues going on here. Not just the fact the Vargr were unstoppable, but likely the panic that set in when the Imperium abandoned Corridor. A couple of initial successes by the Vargr, the idea that things are going so badly with the rest of the galaxy. If I recall there is some mention of some systems simply surrendering. Weyland's 300 population and all but abandoned naval base probably didn't say much when the Vargr arrived. That base alone would be priceless to the Vargr's efforts against Lemish. The possession would also be psychologically shocking to the rest of the sector.

There is a DG Journal solo game where the player is a xboat scout in Corridor. The starport is in the hands of the Vargr and the tender crew is gone/killed. Essentially, the Imperium is unaware of the intrusions because you didn't know. So you escape to the next navy base. What is going to happen? You're going to start a panic. The local governments insisting all naval assets stay put seems only Human/Vilani but where does everyone go that can leave? These are all fun questions to entertain, as I did 10+ yrs ago.

I postulated that by the end of 1117 people are running for naval bases or Depot. That the navy tries to consolidate remaining assets (as the duke tried). We discussed some of this earlier.

So here you go Drakon. What are you going to do with Refugees flooding into little Lemish.

 

[savage]

They, in all likelihood, got around some of this by claiming "Not currently fit for deployment" or "currently laid up for refit and repair". Military commanders do have political masters but they aren't stupid.

Still, from what I've read about Vargr corsairs, IN escort vessels could handle them nicely.

Right, exactly! So, a ship populated from several worlds might try to retrieve families sweeping back across the rimward of Corridor. A few may target Deneb but they have no idea that Deneb has not fallen.

 

[Dagrill]

3) Work out the Vargr forces and likely strategery they used. There is some indication they played sneaky in several of their raids. That would be a fun thing to game out.

Rebellion Sourcebook: Lucan issues orders to Corridor on 095-1117. Corridor receives the orders on 221-1117. Fleet assembles at Depot on 242-1117. "Later that year, several Vargr raiding expeditions made tentative forays into the sector.When they met only minimal opposition, they grew bolder and others followed. Express boat traffic came to a halt. Merchants ships cancelled their scheduled routes through the sector. By the end of 1117, Corridor was in chaos."

There are possibly two issues going on here. Not just the fact the Vargr were unstoppable.

There is also the time issue, Corridor is a big place, you are not going to assemble the entire fleet at Depot in 3 weeks, therefore if the Corridor Fleet
left on 242 it was only those elements within 3 Jumps of Depot and that assumes all the squadron commanders immediately Jump to Depot on receipt of the orders.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Here's an interesting REAL LIFE happenstance in time of peace and no hasty evacuation. Balaklava submarine base
"But the last ship left port way back in 1995, leaving behind memories of a more tense and warlike time, a few cigarette butts, a crushed beer can or two and, oh yeah, a couple of nuclear SS-N-23 Skiff ballistic missiles that were forgotten in a rusting sub for years before the Russians ever noticed them."
Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_1944...-you-wont-believe-are-real.html#ixzz2qnQBkY7v
QUOTE]

Wow! This really convinces me that Corridor could not have been emptied as described, surely even if Depot was abandoned some enterprising Planetary Naval Admiral (from Khukish?) would have nipped over and had a go at getting his hands on whatever was immediately spaceworthy ?

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

I once calculated that an average Imperial fleet has about the same number of shipboard berths as the entire US Navy and believe that it would need about the same number of groundside personnel to support them and consequently the same number of general officers as the US Navy has (possbly a bit less, since I've been told that the USN is over-officered (OTOH, who says the IN isn't similarily over-officered? ). And on top of that you'd need a sector-level group of admirals.
Hans

Actually given the long transit times, it makes sense to over-officer the IN, I'm sure the Sector Admiral has a bunch of favourites to hand who he sends out to replace lost Captains,

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

Wow! This really convinces me that Corridor could not have been emptied as described,

I don't think there is a description of Corridor being emptied beyond "Lucan ordered the Corriodor Fleet to come help him and the sector duke complied". (And then the description of the attack on Depot (which claims that Depot was attacked precisely because it hadn't been emptied)).

...surely even if Depot was abandoned some enterprising Planetary Naval Admiral (from Khukish?) would have nipped over and had a go at getting his hands on whatever was immediately spaceworthy ?

That's what I think too. There may be a few missiles left behind, but not massive amounts of useful stuff let alone mothballed warships.


Hans

 

[savage]

Here's an interesting REAL LIFE happenstance in time of peace and no hasty evacuation. Balaklava submarine base
"But the last ship left port way back in 1995, leaving behind memories of a more tense and warlike time, a few cigarette butts, a crushed beer can or two and, oh yeah, a couple of nuclear SS-N-23 Skiff ballistic missiles that were forgotten in a rusting sub for years before the Russians ever noticed them."
Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_1944...-you-wont-believe-are-real.html#ixzz2qnQBkY7v
QUOTE]

Wow! This really convinces me that Corridor could not have been emptied as described, surely even if Depot was abandoned some enterprising Planetary Naval Admiral (from Khukish?) would have nipped over and had a go at getting his hands on whatever was immediately spaceworthy ?

Regards

David

Do you have the rubber raft? :rofl:
I am a big fan of this type of urban analysis. I think its also a great foundation for TNE refs. I thought through a number of these issues when I worked on my Corridor Depot campaign. Why did the IN choose Depot for generations? What are the best storage methods? etc
The article in Digest Journal really didn't scratch the surface.

Also, the US left hundreds of operation tanks in Vietnam. Most theaters of war have this problem. We've been trying to sell off our theater of war equipment in Afganistan as we speak.

Also, I sat in the captains chair of the refurbished (from mothballs) battleship Iowa. There are levels to all of it.

 

[Drakon]

So here you go Drakon. What are you going to do with Refugees flooding into little Lemish.

Sadly, besides the Starship Operators Manual, I have none of the DG material.

Lets see, Refugees would be flooding from Sutton and Weyland. Tamilaa would be a real problem. Bigger population worlds would be more problematic.

Establish Refugee camps on any empty land south of the Starport between Kudra and Franklin.

Emergency contract for a lot more breather masks.

Take a look at food stocks and expected refugee traffic and see how long this years harvest will last. Check medical supplies and any home grown or produced consumables whose production will need to be ramped up.

Put out a general call for evacuation fleets and try to pass as many refugees on to either Veu Bella or Specti, depending on which way the refugees desired to go. (Vland or Deneb)

What refugees intend to stay on Lemish will be put to work farming. Those that desire to become Lemishi, will have to adapt to Lemishi ways, but they are going to have to "earn their air". They will need to create more food if everyone is to avoid starving.

General Priniciples will be for Lemish to take care of its own first and foremost, and to help out where we can, without cutting our own throat. Lemish is a very big planet, there is plenty of room. Just we were not expecting so much company all at once.

EDIT: Immediately after posting, my wife asked what I was doing. I read her the question. She said "First thing you do is discuss this with the Baroness. The Baron's job is the defense and protection of the system. The Baroness' job will be to deal with the refugees." She then went into a list of things refugees would need, food, water, shelter, underwear. She wants a little time to write up a list, but I believe I can rest assured the refugees will be taken care of to the best of Lemish's ability.

(Technically, she does not hold a patent, but she is my wife and puts up with me. I don't have the heart to correct her.)

 

[rancke]

Lets see, Refugees would be flooding from Sutton and Weyland. Tamilaa would be a real problem. Bigger population worlds would be more problematic.

The main limit on refugee flow would be available transportation. People can't just bundle up their few remaining possessions and hit the road. They have to find someone with a multi-million credit asset willing to take them off the world. That's either private ships looking to turn a profit or government ships. If the Corridor Fleet left their troop transports behind (which can be argued either way), the duke would be in a position to resuce a lot of people. But he would also be in a position to decide where to bring them.

Weyland is a colony of Lemish, so the ruler of Lemish would be morally obliged to rescue them -- all 300 of them. Anyone else (except for a trickle of private traffic refugees) would only be invited to Lemish if there's infrastructure to support them.

A lot of the people on worlds like Sutton would actually hit the road. Disperse into the hinterland and hope that the Vargr wouldn't find them. Or stay put and hope that the Vargr wouldn't find them. A world is a big place and being a corsair is a business. (Whoever killed off a million people in one go must be one crazy SOB. The only way you can kill off that many people is by bombing urban concentrations of people, and that would ruin all that lovely loot too). You don't pay the maintenance on a warship let alone keep your loyal crew loyal on what you can steal from an isolated farmstead or a small village.

That's the main handicap of corsairs as compared to national vessels. The corsair is running a business. He is trying to get loot without getting his ship shot full of holes in the process. Every bit of combat repair comes out of his own pocket. A national ship is being paid to fight corsairs and has a government behind it to pay for repairs.

In one of C. Northcote Parkinson's Richard Delancy books, Delancy, beached RN liutenant turned privateer, is told by the owner of his ship that when he spots a potential prize, he is to consider three numbers: The first is the value of the prize; the second is the amount of damage the prize will sustain while being captured; the third is the amount of damage his own ship will take in capturing the prize. And if the second and third number sums up to more than the first, he is to leave the prize alone.

No doubt there are crazy corsair captains out there that cares more about glory or grudges than about loot. We know so because we know of several corsair massacres. And with all the amateur corsairs that are leaving their navies to go set up for themselves, there are probably more than usual in Corridor. But unbusinesslike corsairs aren't going to last very long, since they take chances and run risks a proper corsair would dream of.

Corsairing is a business. Killing people to get at loot is business. Nuking one out of many cities to encourage the others to not resist is business. Collateral damage can be business. But killing people just for the fun of it? Killing between 55% and 99% of the people on a world? That's not business at all.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

(Technically, she does not hold a patent, but she is my wife and puts up with me. I don't have the heart to correct her.)

Smart Baron & wise husband.

 

[rancke]

Marriage makes the spouse just as noble as the titleholder.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Marriage makes the spouse just as noble as the titleholder.
Hans

Seemingly true but, as Edward VIII found out, it may not count enough. Wallis Simpson would have become queen consort, but never Queen, had Edward married her before abdicating. (A royal marriage being impossible for political/legal reasons, not traditional ones.)

She did become Duchess of Windsor after the abdication but, interestingly, before the marriage. (Interesting back story there.)

A morganatic marriage had been proposed as an option.

In the context of royalty, a morganatic marriage is a marriage between people of unequal social rank, which prevents the passage of the husband's titles and privileges to the wife and any children born of the marriage. Now rare, it is also known as a left-handed marriage because in the wedding ceremony the groom traditionally held his bride's right hand with his left hand instead of his right.

 

[rancke]

Seemingly true but, as Edward VIII found out, it may not count enough. Wallis Simpson would have become queen consort, but never Queen, had Edward married her before abdicating. (A royal marriage being impossible for political/legal reasons, not traditional ones.)

Sweeping generalizations are always wrong and so was mine.

Sure, it depends on the time and place. Though I will point out that your examples are all about royalty, and the rules for royalty are often different from the rules for nobility (albeir with considerable overlap). When our Prince Joachim married commoner Alexandra Manley, she became Princess Alexandra. When they divorced, she became a countess, not back to being a commoner. The Danish state COULD have let her stay a princess if it had chosen to. I don't know what happens to divorced British noblemen's wives.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Sweeping generalizations are always wrong and so was mine.

Sure, it depends on the time and place. Though I will point out that your examples are all about royalty, and the rules for royalty are often different from the rules for nobility (albeir with considerable overlap). When our Prince Joachim married commoner Alexandra Manley, she became Princess Alexandra. When they divorced, she became a countess, not back to being a commoner. The Danish state COULD have let her stay a princess if it had chosen to. I don't know what happens to divorced British noblemen's wives.
Hans

I'm just an ignorant "colonial" myself. As I understand it each country and noble lineage has differing, and often confusing, laws, rules, customs and traditions.

I do know that in the Eastern Orthodox Churches Tradition, while NOT having force of Canon Law, might as well's have. (Bishops coming solely from the monastics, Tradition NOT Law.)

My previous post was not intended as criticism, but to engender dialog on a most fascinating subject. (Hey, if we are going to have an Imperial Rebellion we have to have some reasons for or against the Pretenders.)