The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[rancke]

I'm just an ignorant "colonial" myself. As I understand it each country and noble lineage has differing, and often confusing, laws, rules, customs and traditions.

There are strong traditions, but in a constitutional monrchy, at least, the government has the last word. Both the sons of Frederik IX's younger brother Knud lost their titles and their places in the succession for marrying commoners without consent and became counts instead. Presumably their wives became countesses. Whereas the aforementioned Prince Joachim retained his title and his place in the succession despite marrying a commoner with consent. That was undoubtedly the result of the times a-changing and traditions softening. Joachim's marriage was a generation after his cousin and royals marrying commoners is a good deal more common (so to speak ) nowadays. (mind you, before he found Mary, Crown Prince Frederik had a succession of girlfriends that made tabloid editors drool and right-minded royalists purse their lips censoriously).


Hans

 

[Vladika]

There are strong traditions, but in a constitutional monrchy, at least, the government has the last word. Both the sons of Frederik IX's younger brother Knud lost their titles and their places in the succession for marrying commoners without consent and became counts instead. Presumably their wives became countesses. Whereas the aforementioned Prince Joachim retained his title and his place in the succession despite marrying a commoner with consent. That was undoubtedly the result of the times a-changing and traditions softening. Joachim's marriage was a generation after his cousin and royals marrying commoners is a good deal more common (so to speak ) nowadays. (mind you, before he found Mary, Crown Prince Frederik had a succession of girlfriends that made tabloid editors drool and right-minded royalists purse their lips censoriously).
Hans

It's impossible to know how you personally feel about Christian X (Though I think I'm about to find out...) but to me he embodied what it was meant to be "Noble". Whether by accident or design or simple practical realities he seemed to do the "right thing at the right time." Iceland was a case in point. So of the rest, even though "grandfathered" politically due to to the time frame, might be to politically controversial to discuss on CotI.

From what little I have read, I admire him greatly.

 

[Drakon]

Marriage makes the spouse just as noble as the titleholder.


Hans

Any nobility I possess is a result of her efforts and affections. Besides we live in California, and it is a community property state.

 

[McPerth]

Marriage makes the spouse just as noble as the titleholder.


Hans

Argeable...

The wife of a King becomes Queen, the husband of a Queen become Consort Prince (not King).

But that's SOlomani tradition, Vilani one might as well be different (as are for noble heirs, being the third son instead of the firstborn one, IDK if gender has importance here), and Imperial may vary according the part of the imperium you're in...

 

[rancke]

The wife of a King becomes Queen, the husband of a Queen become Consort Prince (not King).

* Royalty is not nobility.

* The spouse of a peer doesn't become a peer, but does become just as noble.

But that's SOlomani tradition, Vilani one might as well be different (as are for noble heirs, being the third son instead of the firstborn one, IDK if gender has importance here), and Imperial may vary according the part of the imperium you're in...

The Imperium's traditions are predominantly Solomani (although not carbon copies). Vilani traditions are exceptions, grudgingly conceded as the price of domestic tranquility on Vilani-dominated worlds. Look at the the Imperial Navy. Not one single Vilani tradition described in all the material we have on it (IMTU there is at least one Vilani tradition retained in the IN: the cooks have higher status and the morale function usually handled by chaplains in 21st Century navies are handled by cooks (officers, of course)). Look at the essay about nobles in LDNZ: almost (though not entirely) a copy of British traditions. Title usually inherited throgh primogeniture and not a line about the Vilani inheritance rule, which is an exception not an equal alternative.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Any nobility I possess is a result of her efforts and affections. Besides we live in California, and it is a community property state.

The Baron and Baroness of Lemish live in California? That's a bit of a commute, isn't it?

And you're misusing one meaning of the term 'nobility' for another.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

IMTU there is at least one Vilani tradition retained in the IN: the cooks have higher status and the morale function usually handled by chaplains in 21st Century navies are handled by cooks (officers, of course)).

I like this. I once had a player who palyed a Vilani carácter and was quite proud of his Steward skill, seeing it this way.

It's also the reason I've always given for a Steward be better paid than a Medic in the Crew salary list in CT...

 

[Drakon]

Weyland is a colony of Lemish, so the ruler of Lemish would be morally obliged to rescue them -- all 300 of them. Anyone else (except for a trickle of private traffic refugees) would only be invited to Lemish if there's infrastructure to support them.

Quite true. That will have to be a first concern, rescuing Weyland's 300 colonist, who happen to produce 6 RUs a year.

That is another adventure right there. Obviously the baron can't go himself, but he can hire/assign resources and men to the job.

A lot of the people on worlds like Sutton would actually hit the road. Disperse into the hinterland and hope that the Vargr wouldn't find them. Or stay put and hope that the Vargr wouldn't find them. A world is a big place and being a corsair is a business. (Whoever killed off a million people in one go must be one crazy SOB. The only way you can kill off that many people is by bombing urban concentrations of people, and that would ruin all that lovely loot too). You don't pay the maintenance on a warship let alone keep your loyal crew loyal on what you can steal from an isolated farmstead or a small village.

That is one hope I have for the outer planets of the Lemish system. That they are too poor and too far away from the jump point to bother with.

A world too big will require a lot of smacking around to surrender. Tamilaa has a bigger population/economy and could possibly be bypassed, at least until after the Vargr have patched up any hurt from the Sutton and Weyland raids. How proactive Tamilaa would be is an interesting question.

Corsairing is a business. Killing people to get at loot is business. Nuking one out of many cities to encourage the others to not resist is business. Collateral damage can be business. But killing people just for the fun of it? Killing between 55% and 99% of the people on a world? That's not business at all.


Hans

As long as it stays a business, that helps the Lemishi survival chances. One worry is some charasimatic Vargr will turn business into religous duty to take their rightful place as Grandfather commands.

Being an agricultural planet will give Lemish better chances of survival. But it will hurt.

Is there the possibility that the stories of the destruction of Lemish was overblown, on purpose? "Oh don't go there, its an ash heap, a haunted planet."

 

[Dagrill]

Marriage makes the spouse just as noble as the titleholder. Hans

But not accepted in "polite society", the Duke of Clarence married his mistress, but his actress wife and children were not received at court by Victoria.

With reference to another post, when John of Gaunt married his long time mistress Katherine Swineford an Act of Parliament was passed excluding their
children and their descendants from the throne for all time. Barely a century
later his great grandson from the liaison Henry Tudor usurped the throne...

Hmmm this would make a lot more sense if Dulinor was Stephron's bastard son...

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Any nobility I possess is a result of her efforts and affections. Besides we live in California, and it is a community property state.

California is a commune? Is that for religious or political reasons?

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Also, the US left hundreds of operation tanks in Vietnam. Most theaters of war have this problem. We've been trying to sell off our theater of war equipment in Afganistan as we speak.

Also, I sat in the captains chair of the refurbished (from mothballs) battleship Iowa. There are levels to all of it.

I believe the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948 was fought using old WW2 equipment left there.

I've sat in several captain's chairs most recently HMS Cavalier, a WW2 destroyer at Chatham dockyard (that was a wedding anniversary to remember).

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

There are strong traditions, but in a constitutional monrchy, at least, the government has the last word.
Hans

It's probably worth bearing in mind the Third Imperium is more like an absolute monarchy as in Louis XIV of France, or a Russian Czar than a constitutional monarchy, which makes a rebellion more of a good idea...

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

But not accepted in "polite society", the Duke of Clarence married his mistress, but his actress wife and children were not received at court by Victoria.

Royalty not nobility.

With reference to another post, when John of Gaunt married his long time mistress Katherine Swineford an Act of Parliament was passed excluding their children and their descendants from the throne for all time. Barely a century later his great grandson from the liaison Henry Tudor usurped the throne...

Royalty not nobility.

Though there have been times and places where marriage between nobles and commoners was illegal. But then there wouldn't be any problem either¹. :devil:

¹ No marraige, no spouse to become as noble as the noble.​

Hans

 

[savage]

It's probably worth bearing in mind the Third Imperium is more like an absolute monarchy as in Louis XIV of France, or a Russian Czar than a constitutional monarchy, which makes a rebellion more of a good idea...

Regards

David

Clearly Russian. No doubt about it.

Drakon,
You have 2-3 weeks to get people off world. Tops. lets assume based on what we know that in the first month of siting the first 3-6 parsecs are flooded with invaders. The first couple worlds in a subsector don't know what hit them.

It's not about having a wealthy friend with a transport. It's about how many habitable transports are in system when it starts. Trade to the Vargr client states collapses. Vargr Corsairs and Merchant Princes freak out. Lemish resist and is severely punished before the end of 1117.

 

[savage]

I believe the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948 was fought using old WW2 equipment left there.

I've sat in several captain's chairs most recently HMS Cavalier, a WW2 destroyer at Chatham dockyard (that was a wedding anniversary to remember).

Regards

David

Pardon if my previous post was confusing. I was rushing out the door this morning!
Sitting in the command seats gives a person a perspective.
I'm glad you've had that opportunity. That being said, when its active duty! The prospective is completely different than a museum. It is completely reasonable that a maintained Reserve (mothball) fleet can be refurbished and deployed. The key is maintained. I think in Traveller it is even needs to be even more common. CT references of capital ships turned into highports for example.

 

[savage]

Lets see, Refugees would be flooding from Sutton and Weyland. Tamilaa would be a real problem. Bigger population worlds would be more problematic.

Establish Refugee camps on any empty land south of the Starport between Kudra and Franklin.

Emergency contract for a lot more breather masks.

Take a look at food stocks and expected refugee traffic and see how long this years harvest will last. Check medical supplies and any home grown or produced consumables whose production will need to be ramped up.

Put out a general call for evacuation fleets
The Baron's job is the defense and protection of the system. The Baroness' job will be to deal with the refugees."

In Traveller, most people will be stuck. But everything within 5 parsecs will assume its safe and head to you. Eventually, to Kaasu or Depot (military only. LOL. Help us!). A few smart ones will keep going along the Rift and not stop but resources are limited. Look at the trade per month for those worlds. Probably a good percentage of the population will be doubled.

 

[rancke]

You have 2-3 weeks to get people off world. Tops.

That's an opinion I do not share at all. The small-time corsairs that are going to be ready to jump at a moment's notice won't be anywhere until two jump's time after the Impies leave a system at a minimum. The Glory of Taarskoerzn that mounts a major fanatical campaign against Corridor propably won't even hear about it for several more weeks (Taarskoerzn is 10 parsecs from the nearest Imperial worlds -- that means a minimum of two jumps and that only if Taarskoerzn happens to have a jump-5 courier on standby in the insignificant Dazeys World system (population 500)). Once notified, Taarskoerzn has to get its fleets moving, which takes more than a press of a button.

(After that, Taarskoerzn takes its TL10/12 fleet, funded primarily by 5 billion people on Gherrg (Provence 1440 A655974-A/5) and 5 billion people on Taarskoerzn (Provence 1835 A8889AB-C/5) and fights its way (!!!) through the fleet funded by the 319 billion people (including 30 billion living on TL15 worlds) of the Irrgh Manifest and proceeds to subjugate the several hundred billion people of Corridor with a hostile power lying across their supply lines and their home worlds exposed to the avaricious eyes of their neignbors...)
:nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono:

...lets assume based on what we know that in the first month of siting the first 3-6 parsecs are flooded with invaders. The first couple worlds in a subsector don't know what hit them.

Let's not. How about assuming something plausible instead? That things take time and events generally don't line up like disciplined soldiers doing quick march.

It's not about having a wealthy friend with a transport. It's about how many habitable transports are in system when it starts. Trade to the Vargr client states collapses. Vargr Corsairs and Merchant Princes freak out. Lemish resist and is severely punished before the end of 1117.

The destruction of Lemish is actually fairly plausible (Unlike practically everything else I've read about the Invasion of Corridor). I skimmed through the writeups yesterday, and the author described Lemish as an object lesson to frighten the other worlds. The only problem I have with that is that as the subsector capital, Lemish must have had some Imperium-funded system defenses. With the funding gone, maintenance is going to become a problem, but for the moment those defenses would remain in place to fend off the early corsairs, maybe long enough to negotiate a deal with Khukish (Evacuation in return for the Lemish fleet, becoming a territory of Khukish?). The destruction of Lemish can probably be explained, but it isn't just a foregone conclusion.


Hans

 

[savage]

That's an opinion I do not share at all. The small-time corsairs that are going to be ready to jump at a moment's notice won't be anywhere until two jump's time after the Impies leave a system at a minimum. The Glory of Taarskoerzn that mounts a major fanatical campaign against Corridor propably won't even hear about it for several more weeks (Taarskoerzn is 10 parsecs from the nearest Imperial worlds -- that means a minimum of two jumps and that only if Taarskoerzn happens to have a jump-5 courier on standby in the insignificant Dazeys World system (population 500)). Once notified, Taarskoerzn has to get its fleets moving, which takes more than a press of a button.

(After that, Taarskoerzn takes its TL10/12 fleet, funded primarily by 5 billion people on Gherrg (Provence 1440 A655974-A/5) and 5 billion people on Taarskoerzn (Provence 1835 A8889AB-C/5) and fights its way (!!!) through the fleet funded by the 319 billion people (including 30 billion living on TL15 worlds) of the Irrgh Manifest and proceeds to subjugate the several hundred billion people of Corridor with a hostile power lying across their supply lines and their home worlds exposed to the avaricious eyes of their neignbors...)
:nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono:

Let's not. How about assuming something plausible instead? That things take time and events generally don't line up like disciplined soldiers doing quick march.



The destruction of Lemish is actually fairly plausible (Unlike practically everything else I've read about the Invasion of Corridor). I skimmed through the writeups yesterday, and the author described Lemish as an object lesson to frighten the other worlds. The only problem I have with that is that as the subsector capital, Lemish must have had some Imperium-funded system defenses. With the funding gone, maintenance is going to become a problem, but for the moment those defenses would remain in place to fend off the early corsairs, maybe long enough to negotiate a deal with Khukish (Evacuation in return for the Lemish fleet, becoming a territory of Khukish?). The destruction of Lemish can probably be explained, but it isn't just a foregone conclusion.


Hans

I see your point...I should have given a more clear start time.
Once the clarity exists that a full scale invasion is in progress. Certain the minute Corridor Fleet leaves it will not be clear that they/re under assault. With hundreds of Corsairs and fleet ships it will require a stealthy captain to avoid them in an invaded system. Once they enter Lemish it's probably too late.

In the invasion of Poland in WWII and other fast assaults there was not a lot of time to evade being behind the lines for the refugees. Noting that I agree the entire entree of the Vargr and Corsair fleets is problematic. (we discussed this!) In fact, IMTU I choose the collapse of dependency trade and certain military leaks as adequate triggers. Those take many weeks to course through the Vargr borders.

The point I was making with Drakon is that you're flooded with Refugees and then soon after an invasion force. The invasion does not work if the IN (domain of Deneb) has 6 months to respond. Lemish resisted the invasion and was made an example. I don't think that was planned, calculated decision by a government a subsector away. More than likely a Vargr Commodore making quick work of things. I don't have the timeline in front of me but you get my point.

Hans keeps us focusing on clarity. Good job.

 

[rancke]

Once the clarity exists that a full scale invasion is in progress. Certain the minute Corridor Fleet leaves it will not be clear that they/re under assault. With hundreds of Corsairs and fleet ships it will require a stealthy captain to avoid them in an invaded system. Once they enter Lemish it's probably too late.

There may be hundreds of corsairs at the beginning, but until some of the cruisers from various Varrgr fleets show up, they won't amount to spit. That's another point the MT writers got wrong. Corsairing is a business and their number and size depends on the available prey. It's the classic predator-prey pattern. If there are too many corsairs the number of merchants go down and the number of corsairs drop. There's an article about corsairs in JTAS21 that says the largest bands "rival small interstellar governments in scope, power, and naval strength". That sounds quite powerful at first sight, but just how powerful are the smallest interstellar governments? Apparently not all that powerful. The article describes one band, the Kforuzeng, as an example of "middle and upper range corsair operations". At one point the band is described as "the strongest -- but by no means the only -- corsair power in the region" (Firgr Subsector and some adjacent territories). At this point it has not yet reached its greatest power but continues to grow. At its peak -- when it serves as an example of the upper range of corsair operations -- its fleet consist of, and I quote: "at least 35 starships, ranging from 100 tons to 1000 tons in size". A fleet that would be outmatched by a single 30,000 tons Gionetti class light cruiser. And that's the most powerful corsair band in more than a full subsector.

Noting that I agree the entire entree of the Vargr and Corsair fleets is problematic. (we discussed this!) In fact, IMTU I choose the collapse of dependency trade and certain military leaks as adequate triggers. Those take many weeks to course through the Vargr borders.

The Irrgh Manifest is actually a much more credible threat than TL12 fanatics and piddling corsair bands. I could see them taking over the non-aligned worlds between them and the Imperium. If they can overcome the command and control problems (a VERY big if) they could take over Lemish and the Narrows. I can't QUITE see them taking over Corridor's high-population worlds, but maybe it is possible. In any case, corsairs based in the Manifest could probably devastate Lemish and the Narrows. After which they'd have to go elsewhere as there would be no prey left to sustain them.


Hans

 

[savage]

The Irrgh Manifest is actually a much more credible threat than TL12 fanatics and piddling corsair bands. I could see them taking over the non-aligned worlds between them and the Imperium. If they can overcome the command and control problems (a VERY big if) they could take over Lemish and the Narrows. I can't QUITE see them taking over Corridor's high-population worlds, but maybe it is possible. In any case, corsairs based in the Manifest could probably devastate Lemish and the Narrows. After which they'd have to go elsewhere as there would be no prey left to sustain them.


Hans

We agreed long ago that MT descriptions of the invasion are not going to work. And that the Vargr threat isn't all that dangerous as described. I think DG agreed with us and tried to do some fixes in articles.

I also mentioned pages ago I had my own fixes to make that believable IMTU 10+ years ago. Here is the quick breakdown instead of reading through pages:
1. Trade reduces to nothing as the Rebellion requires all assets. This is also a drain on supplies going to non-self sufficient colonies and client states.
2. Removal of part of the Corridor fleet, but assumptions that it is all gone.
3. Communications failures in Corridor IN (sabotage) and later canon betrayal at Kaasu. I do not use XBoats for all communications.
4. A presumed threat on the part of the Vargr nations.
5. I also never gave the GT corsairs complete control of Depot.

So, how much of the Corridor Fleet failed to reach Lucan? 40%? 65% Some may have gone to Vland. Others may have had in route system failures and returned home or to Depot. MT claims that Dulinor and Lucan's fleets we're battle hardened. LOL The inner fleets haven't seen battle in ages. Antares, Vland, Corridor, Deneb, SM, and rimward sectors have been living it for generations A full Corridor fleet should have been very effective. I need to reread it. I also recall they called it a meat grinder or something.