The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[rancke]

1. Trade reduces to nothing as the Rebellion requires all assets. This is also a drain on supplies going to non-self sufficient colonies and client states.

The Rebellion is not an entity. If a merchant on Kaasu wants to transport a cargo to Khukish, the Rebellion is not going to stop him. If corsairs infest every system between the two (none of them are populous enough to have adequate system defenses of their own), either Kaasu or Khukish can station a CruDiv at a gas giant in the Hannel system and no corsairs are going to be able to get at the merchants that start to use that gas giant for refuelling. Remember, if corsairs assemble a group big enough to take out a CruDiv, they're going to get some very expensive ships shot full of holes. Far more holes than two weeks worth of merchant traffic can pay for.

Transport costs will rise and some trade will become uneconomical, but some trade will remain.

3. Communications failures in Corridor IN (sabotage) and later canon betrayal at Kaasu. I do not use XBoats for all communications.

The canon betrayal at Kaasu still leaves the humans in charge. X-boats have been irrelevant for high-performance communication since jump-5 was invented.

4. A presumed threat on the part of the Vargr nations.

Yes, but how big a threat? The Glory of Taarskoerzn is a joke and the corsairs by their very nature a minor nuisance.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

The Rebellion is not an entity. If a merchant on Kaasu wants to transport a cargo to Khukish, the Rebellion is not going to stop him. If corsairs infest every system between the two (none of them are populous enough to have adequate system defenses of their own), either Kaasu or Khukish can station a CruDiv at a gas giant in the Hannel system and no corsairs are going to be able to get at the merchants that start to use that gas giant for refuelling. Remember, if corsairs assemble a group big enough to take out a CruDiv, they're going to get some very expensive ships shot full of holes. Far more holes than two weeks worth of merchant traffic can pay for.

I agree that the Vargr invasion is an absurdity, but it also dovetails into the problems with piracy generally in Traveller.

 

[savage]

The Rebellion is not an entity. If a merchant on Kaasu wants to transport a cargo to Khukish, the Rebellion is not going to stop him. If corsairs infest every system between the two (none of them are populous enough to have adequate system defenses of their own), either Kaasu or Khukish can station a CruDiv at a gas giant in the Hannel system and no corsairs are going to be able to get at the merchants that start to use that gas giant for refuelling. Remember, if corsairs assemble a group big enough to take out a CruDiv, they're going to get some very expensive ships shot full of holes. Far more holes than two weeks worth of merchant traffic can pay for.

Transport costs will rise and some trade will become uneconomical, but some trade will remain.


The canon betrayal at Kaasu still leaves the humans in charge. X-boats have been irrelevant for high-performance communication since jump-5 was invented.


Yes, but how big a threat? The Glory of Taarskoerzn is a joke and the corsairs by their very nature a minor nuisance.


Hans

As I mentioned, it takes a lot of pieces to make the invasion work.
1. The Imperium is not a democracy. Lucan can cut off trade to Corridor which is a trade dependent culture.
2. Thousands of ships (big and small), MT shows 30kdt Vargr cruisers. They needs some bigger non-human ships
3. Who said humans were not in charge of "anything" in the Corridor? Yep. GoT is a joke which is why in my campaign the never successful tookout Depot.
3. A Big Threat.

I feel fine in the litmus test.

About the comment on Piracy. Sometimes normal traders get pulled into opportunity to stay alive.

Onto the next question.

 

[rancke]

1. The Imperium is not a democracy. Lucan can cut off trade to Corridor which is a trade dependent culture.

No he can't. At most he can cut off trade from Core Sector. Cutting off trade from Vland and Lishun and Dagudashaag is beyond his power.

2. Thousands of ships (big and small), MT shows 30kdt Vargr cruisers. They needs some bigger non-human ones.

Hundreds of small ships to begin with. Larger ships may begin to show up later. Then again, they may not, at least not in significant numbers. It doesn't actually say that the 30,000T cruiser and the oversized 10,000T escort are corsair ships, although one of the first and two of the second shows up guarding Depot in Rapid Repo. But be that as it may, the life cyclus of a 30,000T corsair is as follows:

1. A Vargr navy builds it and gives it to a captain.
2. The captain hears rumors of fabulous wealth gained by corsairs raiding Corridor.
3. The captain decides to go walkabout and persuades his crew to go along with it.
4. The captain finds that the loot to keep a 30,000T ship maintained and its crew content is hard to come by. Mutinies occur with more than usual frequency.
5a. The TL12 cruiser runs into a division of human TL15 cruisers.
5b. The crew sells the cruiser to a Vargr government (Not the one they stole it from).
5c. The cruiser winds up in the hands of a shipyard when the (new) captain can't pay for the annual maintenance. The shipyard sells it to a government.

Corsairing is a business¹ and if you can't find the prey to keep in the black, you're not going to last very long.

¹ I may have mentioned that once or twice before, but it bears repeating, because it's the key to understanding Vargr corsairs.​

Hans

 

[Drakon]

What can Lemish do?

To rescue Weyland's 300 people requires a ship with a bit more than 150 tons capacity, and a weeks worth or rations. It may be uncomfortable, but a J1 cargo ship will suffice in a pinch. It will need a military escort and of course be dependent on what assets that are available. It may even come down to commandeering a civilian ship. (Of course the owner, captain and crew will be adequetly compensated.)

It will probably require Imperial naval assets, is available. I really have no idea a proper deployment for a defensive force to cover the entire system. Moving folks to Kakulu, a planet which orbits of the second star of Lemish's system may be an option. (I rolled up the system in this thread http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=30798&page=6 ).

I see three key points. The 100D jump limit, the gas giant and Lemish proper. Some force will have to defend the other planets in the system, but the bulk of forces need to cover these three key points. Can we get by with some sort of blocking force between the jump point and the outer planets?

 

[savage]

No he can't. At most he can cut off trade from Core Sector. Cutting off trade from Vland and Lishun and Dagudashaag is beyond his power.

Trade lines in civil wars are incredibly endangered. Vland, ok maybe. But it will definitely have an impact as cultures start stockpiling.

Hundreds of small ships to begin with. Larger ships may begin to show up later. Then again, they may not, at least not in significant numbers. It doesn't actually say that the 30,000T cruiser and the oversized 10,000T escort are corsair ships, although one of the first and two of the second shows up guarding Depot in Rapid Repo. But be that as it may, the life cyclus of a 30,000T corsair is as follows:

1. A Vargr navy builds it and gives it to a captain.
2. The captain hears rumors of fabulous wealth gained by corsairs raiding Corridor.
3. The captain decides to go walkabout and persuades his crew to go along with it.
4. The captain finds that the loot to keep a 30,000T ship maintained and its crew content is hard to come by. Mutinies occur with more than usual frequency.
5a. The TL12 cruiser runs into a division of human TL15 cruisers.
5b. The crew sells the cruiser to a Vargr government (Not the one they stole it from).
5c. The cruiser winds up in the hands of a shipyard when the (new) captain can't pay for the annual maintenance. The shipyard sells it to a government.

Corsairing is a business¹ and if you can't find the prey to keep in the black, you're not going to last very long.

¹ I may have mentioned that once or twice before, but it bears repeating, because it's the key to understanding Vargr corsairs.​

Hans

We can keep spinning this Hans. Vargr and the invasion do not work unless modified. We've both agreed to that. And that is what I've done for MTU.
Also, remember the same race does have multi-sector governments. In fact, the Vargr books to date have been a rehash, unimaginative rhetoric. Marc has even said that the pictures don't live up to his interpretation. That being said, IMO the 3I could not stand as written in canon either.

Based on the meet grinder. What % of Corridor Fleet went in? I have been struggling with that one a long time. I'd say less than 45%.

Corsairing, yep. It's a business.

 

[Drakon]

Whether the Vargr invasion makes sense based on strength of forces available, is less of a concern for me. I would love to run it as a game, and do up a retcon, but until we can get a better idea of what forces are available, it is difficult to write up the scenarios.

300 people can fit in a bit more than 150 dtons. Rations for 300 people for 7 days. To rescue Weyland, we need a jump 1 capable ship, with roughly 200 tons cargo/passenger capacity, and sufficient military support to cover the extraction.

As for the defense of Lemish, I need a better idea of what forces would be available for the defense of Lemish. Actually I need a better idea of how that defense would work and be deployed. I rolled up the other planets in the system, and found a hospitable planet around the second star in the system (I rolled up the system in this thread http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=30798&page=6 ) It seems to me the key to defending Lemish is the 100D jump limit, the gas giant and Lemish proper. Some assets may need to be deployed to defend the other planets in the system, I am wondering if a blocking force can be set up between the jump point and the outer planets.

 

[LeperColony]

In isolation the Vargr invasion doesn't make much sense, but as an exacerbating factor it can push things over the breaking point.

The Rebellion wasn't just a galactic event, it had regional consequences and it must have played out in countless petty little squabbles. The regular Imperial Fleets are deployed out very early, but the Reserve Fleets are left behind. As things get worse, I can see three major factions all with some claim to their allegiance.

Vland, Deneb and Lucan's Imperium would all have some adherents, and its entirely possible that there was a smaller scale civil war in Corridor between those three factions. Additionally, individual nobles and planets may have tried to parlay the chaos into a chance at becoming a regional power.

When you throw the Vargr into a sector already disintegrating under the strain of civil war, you could quickly have a situation that becomes untenable.

 

[rancke]

Trade lines in civil wars are incredibly endangered. Vland, ok maybe. But it will definitely have an impact as cultures start stockpiling.

Trade has always been portrayed as being a very small fraction of planetary production. It's loss may affect the movers and shakers (who will agonize over loss of income), but 99% of the populations of high-population worlds are not going to miss anything.

Also, remember the same race does have multi-sector governments.

Not strong functioning ones. The Empire of Varroeth (~2 sectors) is dysfunctional and the Third Empire of Gashikan (~1 sector) is a human/Vargr hybrid. Most Vargr governments are subsector-sized and down. There's a few that span perhaps half a sector.

Based on the meet grinder. What % of Corridor Fleet went in? I have been struggling with that one a long time. I'd say less than 45%.

I'll leave that question for you. They left Corridor. What happened after that is (currently) of little or no interest to me.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

Trade has always been portrayed as being a very small fraction of planetary production. It's loss may affect the movers and shakers (who will agonize over loss of income), but 99% of the populations of high-population worlds are not going to miss anything.

Also, how much trade is inter-sector as opposed to intra-sector? I would tend to think that any unit as large as a sector would be self sufficient, given transport costs and travel times.

 

[rancke]

As for the defense of Lemish, I need a better idea of what forces would be available for the defense of Lemish. Actually I need a better idea of how that defense would work and be deployed.

There really is no better canon answer than what you've already gotten. The size of the defense force Lemish can afford on its own can be estimated using Striker and a bit of common sense, but how much the Imperium subsidized on top of that is pure speculation country. None, because they'd already stationed a full fleet at Lemish? Scores of monitors because Imperial subsector capitals deserve decent defenses? Something in between? Does the Duke have a full brigade of huscarles paid out of his estates in Core subsector? Or does he have a few bodyguards and borrowed marines for most of his purposes? There's no way to reason out an answer. You can choose whatever setup tickles your fancy. There's no way to gainsay whatever you come up with.

It seems to me the key to defending Lemish is the 100D jump limit, the gas giant and Lemish proper. Some assets may need to be deployed to defend the other planets in the system, I am wondering if a blocking force can be set up between the jump point and the outer planets.

No. You can station your assets around Lemish. A picket at the solar jump limit is a good idea if you have the assets. Anything else in the system can be defended only if you feel confident that splitting your forces won't invite defeat in detail. There's no way to block access to any other part of the system, because an attacker can jump in anywhere outside the jump limits.

Oh, keep in mind that it takes several days to move from the solar jump limit to Lemish. No one is going to surprise the planetary defenses.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The defense forces can also be quickly estimated using the stats in the MT Rebellion Sourcebook.

 

[rancke]

The defense forces can also be quickly estimated using the stats in the MT Rebellion Sourcebook.

What stats?

And what are the quickly estimated defenses of Lemish according to those stats?



Hans

 

[savage]

Drakon,
As our friend Hans has clarified: There are holes you can drive a Tigress thru in the Traveller Corridor sector. Think of all of the material on WWII on the market. We have 1-2 small books on the Rebellion. I created some player background for the re-emerged Depot in 1212 IMTU on my website. And I really need to put more effort into the complete view. As for me, I have the Marches war world of Porozlo and the Merchant Princes of Skull to contend with as well.

Building a background for your world really is in your ball court. You could stick to a 3I setting in which CT, MgT or GT are adequate. If you go, Rebellion you'll need a few MT books. The military is a small part of the equation as you create mapping, geology (I still like the free World Builder software), economics, culture, npcs, etc. On the software thread, i collected a number of non-retail online resources for Traveller campaigning. check those out too.

 

[McPerth]

What stats?

And what are the quickly estimated defenses of Lemish according to those stats?



Hans

I guess he referes to the ground defenses table (battalions) in the Rebellion book, page 37.

We've already talked about the lack of a similar table (at least that I know about) for SDBs, but, using numbers given in several supplements, you can infere the Planetary Navy Budget from there (by calculating the ground forces cost, that, IIRC represent about 40% of its defense budget).

Of course, that needs some work and will give only the naval budget, and from there you msut asume which part is fro SDBs and which one to squadrons...

In any case, I'm in Hans' field about the Vargr invasion. The unstable nature of Vargr political entities makes large ships a rarity, and even if they are, the Cruisers shown in the Rebellion book, aside from being against design rules (e.g. a TL 11 jump 4 ship), are useless against any TL light cruiser (the +/- 4 reflective modifier for computer is too decisive...), and would probably be destroyed by some TL 15 destroyers...

 

[tjoneslo]

Also, how much trade is inter-sector as opposed to intra-sector? I would tend to think that any unit as large as a sector would be self sufficient, given transport costs and travel times.

If you believe the trade numbers produced by GT:Far Trader, you can look at the Trade Map, and the number produced for Corridor:

population: 187 billion people
Economy: TCr960 per year
Internal Trade: BCr1,845
External Trade:BCr551

These numbers probably don't mean a lot in isolation, but the Trade map summary can let you do comparisons.

The per-capita income Cr5,136/year for Corridor places it on the lower end of the scale for Imperial sectors, below the Imperial value (Cr7,859) and the global one (Cr6,103). This makes Corridor one of the poorer sectors of the Imperium and not just because there are fewer worlds.

 

[rancke]

I guess he referes to the ground defenses table (battalions) in the Rebellion book, page 37.

Ah, right. I paged through that book yesterday and still managed to overlook that page.

But what those tables don't show (in addition to ignoring the population multiplier -- for which there really is no excuse in an MT product) are the naval defenses that Drakón was asking about. Nor do they help one whit with hypothetical subsidized defenses.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Whether the Vargr invasion makes sense based on strength of forces available, is less of a concern for me. I would love to run it as a game, and do up a retcon, but until we can get a better idea of what forces are available, it is difficult to write up the scenarios.

300 people can fit in a bit more than 150 dtons. Rations for 300 people for 7 days. To rescue Weyland, we need a jump 1 capable ship, with roughly 200 tons cargo/passenger capacity, and sufficient military support to cover the extraction.

This will depend on which accomodations you use. I nthis case (emergency evacuantion I guess your numbers are right. If you can put some of them to cold sleep (I guess even emergency cold berth will do in such desesperate case), you drop the need for provisions/supplies.

As for the defense of Lemish, I need a better idea of what forces would be available for the defense of Lemish. Actually I need a better idea of how that defense would work and be deployed. I rolled up the other planets in the system, and found a hospitable planet around the second star in the system (I rolled up the system in this thread http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=30798&page=6 ) It seems to me the key to defending Lemish is the 100D jump limit, the gas giant and Lemish proper. Some assets may need to be deployed to defend the other planets in the system, I am wondering if a blocking force can be set up between the jump point and the outer planets.

As you cannot predict the jump exit point, I guess you cannot set a blocking fleet from it to outer planets.

 

[Drakon]

One realization that came after my last posting is whatever assets the Imperium leave behind to guard will have to be supported, maintained and funded by Lemish after the Imperium leave.

Which means a tax hike, which is not going to be popular.

SO Lemish has at minimum, 1 Battalion of Imperial troops, 7 SDB, whatever local militia and mercenaries we can scroung up. Whatever the Imperium leaves behind will be utilized as well, but trying to get a complete picture is proving slow going.

 

[Dagrill]

As for the defense of Lemish, I need a better idea of what forces would be available for the defense of Lemish. Actually I need a better idea of how that defense would work and be deployed. I rolled up the other planets in the system, and found a hospitable planet around the second star in the system (I rolled up the system in this thread http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=30798&page=6 ) It seems to me the key to defending Lemish is the 100D jump limit, the gas giant and Lemish proper. Some assets may need to be deployed to defend the other planets in the system, I am wondering if a blocking force can be set up between the jump point and the outer planets.

Hi,
2 Fleets = 20 squadrons, say 4 Bat, 8 Cru, 2 Tank and 6 other, split evenly between 6 Naval Bases gives 33 per base, 1 of these will be undergoing annual maintenance when the order to jump to Depot comes in and 1 will be due for maintenance, 3 or 4 will be out on patrol, perhaps a couple more have a fault or crew on leave and unable to respond in time that gives you 8 Ships,
say 1 large warship, 5 Escorts, a Supply Ship and a Scout/Courier, with 75% serviceable and about half in system. The type of large warship is the only important thing as a single Gionetti could fend off any Corsair band, but a divisional troop transport not so good. Even if a Gionetti is left behind it has to protect the whole sub-sector and can't be everywhere at once.

Presumably the Naval base is not stripped and still has at least some missile batteries, (although a deep site Meson Gun would be nicer, I'd think mandatory for a Ducal world, but not for a low pop world). I would also suggest some marines are left behind to guard the base - a battalion?
The base may have a squadron or 2 of Fighters, or some SDB's.

The planetary navy could probably field an Escort, but it might be at Lemish's colony world that some posts have mentioned.

Regards

David