You know it would also make more sense to HIRE those Vargr raiders when they come calling and set them on the next lot to arrive.
Difficult choice risk death and destruction or pay higher taxes?
The Imperial Corridor Fleet
- Thread starter tjoneslo
- Start date
You know it would also make more sense to HIRE those Vargr raiders when they come calling and set them on the next lot to arrive.
Difficult choice risk death and destruction or pay higher taxes?
I find the trade numbers during 1105 (GT/T5) a bit questionable as we discussed earlier. They lack many indicators.
Also, I did protest the drop in TL at Depot. It made little sense based on Canon. Possible rooted in efforts to build up Deneb Depot? And Vland Depot at TL9 is absolutely pathetic. Lishun at TL7. Ok Lishun was a possible closure as a Depot but it still would have had technical value or been sold off to a corporate interest when the Rebellion started.
Vargr development is mediocre at best.
Drakon, use it as a concept, but otherwise I suggest not to buy this nonsense. I think it's most GT.
Also the new Traveller Map updates look great. The T5 trading card and CT data, I received long ago shows TL F. We have a long term data issue that has not improved.
http://travellermap.com/world.html?sector=Corridor&hex=1511
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What others? There are four types of squadrons that I know of: BatRons, CruRons, TankRons, and AssaultRons.
My guess would be, say, 16-20 squadrons, mostly BatRons and CruRons, roughly one BatRon to every three CruRons, with one TankRon or AssaultRon per fleet. Most of them stationed at the two bases with the Fleet HQs, with a CruRon and possibly half a BatRon at each of the others.
Here are some tables I whipped up to randomly determine the composition of a fleet:
Number of squadrons (roll D6):
1 8
2 8
3 9
4 9
5 10
6 10
Type of squadron:
1st-8th sauadrons (roll D6):
1 1 BatRon, 7 CruRons
2 2 BatRons, 6 Crurons
3 2 BatRons, 6 Crurons
4 2 BatRons, 6 Crurons
5 2 BatRons, 6 Crurons
6 3 BatRons, 5 CruRons
9th squadron (roll D6):
1 Batron
2 CruRon
3 CruRon
4 CruRon
5 TankRon
6 AssaultRon
10th squadron (roll D6):
1 Roll again: 1-3 = BatRon, 4-6 = CruRon
2 CruRon
3 TankRon
4 TankRon
5 AssaultRon
6 AssaultRon
That's just the combat squadrons. In addition to a number of auxiliaries directly attached to each squadron, there would be some more auxiliaries attached to the fleet. Escorts, couriers, transports. Unfortunately we have no hints as to how many auxiliaries the IN has.
Hans
12 points of strength (Battalions are strength 1-2) regiments 3-7, brigades about 10. So Lemish should have a reinforced brigade. RebSB p. 37. (Note that these are effectively 5FW/Invasion Earth stats).
Figure a Brigade, plus a battalion of huscarles, and you get a nifty fit. 5-10 brigades in the Division. depending upon the strength of the individual units.
As for ships, I forgot the lack of a comparable ships table in it.
What if the population of Lemish is 1.9 million? It would still have a multiplier of 1, but it would have almost twice the tax base.
What if the duke has a large personal fortune and pays for a full brigade of huscarles?
Hans
The table isn't graduated for PM's. Presume that is a PM 1 (as that's the basis for the tables), and the growth is proportional to population.
one could double it to two brigades (a division) and a light regiment.
Plus needed support elements; actual tail size, probably 5-10x the combattants.
I've done a rough count of the high-population worlds in Corridor (using the T5 UWP listings) and the ones in the coreward half alone amounts to about 240 billion. And while Lemish and Narrows subsectors have very low populations, the other four subsectors holds an average of around 60 billion, which is a bit over the Imperial average.
Hans
That sounds better. But still does not include transient numbers (Travellers, temporary work, etc).
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Given how expensive space travel is and the general sense that such travel is relatively rare (see this thread), the transient population shouldn't be that large. Excepting the Imperial military and bureaucracies, of course.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
Note: if the world has a hostile environment (Atmosphere 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, or 9+ ) shift the Population column one to the left (effectively reducing the number of battalions present).
RebSB p. 37, below table.
Lemish atmo=9. Not 12 battalions, but 1. I wish you were right.
What the duke brings into the mix is unknown, I was worried that someone may have that patent and I would hate to god mod the character (Yeah I know everyone has their own ATU. Still,... )
I think they'd have more than 1 battalion, my friend. Your an outer border subsector capital. Sometimes in Traveller we let statistics cloud judgement. Like I mentioned earlier. Marc has said, "it has to make sense."
Do you think people can afford to pack airplanes? No probably not. There are business travellers constantly on the go in America. I know, I was one. There are many corporations and businesses in a Traveller universe. Not just a few nobles, wild adventures, megacorporation agents and military.
Yeah, people save up for that retirement trip to the garden world or that cool adventure, maybe that wonderful honeymoon cruise. I think the 240 Billion number makes more sense. And I believe you have another 10% (min) transient annual (without doing any analysis).
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
It's likely I'm missing something here but, given the "business travellers constantly on the go in America" wouldn't these same transients be counted in the state of origin for the overall census? I mean, just because they are traveling doesn't increase the base population. Why add that 10%?
By extrapolation wouldn't the vast majority of Corridor travelers be residents of neighboring worlds or at least near worlds? Why then would Corridors overall census rise overly much? As for military and dependent influx, there are a corresponding number exiting.
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LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Air travel is not a good analogy. You can get from any spot on Earth to any other by plane is much less than a week. Also, air travel rates are generally priced by speed (well, actually, by demand, which often is the same thing), thus multiple leg trips with connectors often cost less than direct flights. Additionally, even continental air travel is within the means of a substantial proportion, perhaps even a majority of the adult population. In Traveller, transportation costs seem to be such that even a one jump trip is the experience of a lifetime.
In Traveller you don't pay for speed, you pay per jump. That's what makes higher jump liners uneconomical. If people were willing to pay for speed then you could charge more to go J3 than J1, but in fact the opposite is true. If you are going on a three jump trip, you are much better off taking a direct J3 (if you can find it).
And in any case, those wonderful vacations you mention, I have no doubt they do exist, but how many of them are inter-sector? Not many. Only the super wealthy could afford to travel from one sector to another (not counting people living on sector lines).
The transient population of any sector is likely to be nowhere near 10% of the population.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
60th Fleet Rollup
Please look this over and see if this works. I used Ranke's tables and came up with this for the 60th Fleet
10 squadrons (roll= 5)
2 BatRons, 6 CrusRon (roll= 3)
+ 1 more Crusron (roll=4)
+ TankRon (roll= 3)
So, 20 Battleships in 2 squadrons, 70 cruisers, and 10 tankers, distributed through 3 bases, located at 1 class A starport and 2 class B.
Assumed: Naval drydocks will be run at 75 % capacity. You want excess capacity in the event of an emergency crops up. You want to keep the shipyards employed, so you do not lose the skillset the laborforce has built up over the years. I need to work out how much each base could handle.
The idea being that when the fleet pull out, the drydocks are going about their normal, non wartime operations, doing standard maintenence, refits and overhauls of the ships in the 60th fleet. Each ship will be randomly along their repair path, and will be completed at a future date. From there we can work out when those ships come online.
The 30% of the military budget that was going to the Imperium will be held in escrow until such time as the Imperium returns. The Imperial representative for the planet has authorized the planetary governor to borrow against those funds, to assist the defense of the Imperial citizens. I am not sure it is legal, we can discuss this once the Imperium returns.
Please look this over and see if this works. I used Ranke's tables and came up with this for the 60th Fleet
10 squadrons (roll= 5)
2 BatRons, 6 CrusRon (roll= 3)
+ 1 more Crusron (roll=4)
+ TankRon (roll= 3)
So, 20 Battleships in 2 squadrons, 70 cruisers, and 10 tankers, distributed through 3 bases, located at 1 class A starport and 2 class B.
Assumed: Naval drydocks will be run at 75 % capacity. You want excess capacity in the event of an emergency crops up. You want to keep the shipyards employed, so you do not lose the skillset the laborforce has built up over the years. I need to work out how much each base could handle.
The idea being that when the fleet pull out, the drydocks are going about their normal, non wartime operations, doing standard maintenence, refits and overhauls of the ships in the 60th fleet. Each ship will be randomly along their repair path, and will be completed at a future date. From there we can work out when those ships come online.
The 30% of the military budget that was going to the Imperium will be held in escrow until such time as the Imperium returns. The Imperial representative for the planet has authorized the planetary governor to borrow against those funds, to assist the defense of the Imperial citizens. I am not sure it is legal, we can discuss this once the Imperium returns.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
I would agree with you, but my interpretation of the chart and the note indicates that in a world where everyone is in domed cities or controlled environments, that population is easier to control and defend with fewer troops. Lemish's air makes the job easier.
Subsector dukes get 128 hexes, half on homeworld and half elsewhere. Assuming the same 2 trade codes, that gives him 2.56 million credits income. Tossing in the moot proxie, that puts it at just shy of 3 million credits. Hopefully he has some other funds, perhaps interest in an ice mining venture. Troops are expensive.
Seems high, remembering the squadron stats earlier in the thread. I'd be suprised if they had more than one battleship.
What about the Patrol Cruisers? or are those in the 70 cruisers? We had mentioned 2 bases and the third was reserve fleet.
What about the planetary navy? We we're discussing that too.
Vladika and
Perhaps you'd prefer shipping traffic in the age of sail or the 1900s?
Why not 10%? none of those arguments are substantial because the canon does not support an express opinion about Corridor sector travel. In this particular instance, I believe leveraging GT material is a fatal flaw. They have a very limited view (much from Loren) based on the same data flaws CT had. Business travel could be extensive and there is no reasoning the tens of millions of corporations don't have full low berths shipping people back and forth to their interests.
It's human nature. Look, I have 4 holding in 3 sectors over a 4 sector area. LOL Savage is not going back and forth all year.
There are many arguments here. There is some good adventuring here. Also, the players are not always wealthy and often work for another individual. Marc's Traveller promoted Travel in CT. So, I think you're restricting yourselves. Pulling a number tens of billions lower than Rancke's calculation seems characteristic. How about Traveller's from the Vargr states hungry for human business?
Although, I like some GT products for lack of any resources, their world descriptions and lack of a decent economic foundation are weak. I don't want to be closed minded about something so open for debate. Pull up some canon reading I need to re-review.
Perhaps you'd prefer shipping traffic in the age of sail or the 1900s?
Why not 10%? none of those arguments are substantial because the canon does not support an express opinion about Corridor sector travel. In this particular instance, I believe leveraging GT material is a fatal flaw. They have a very limited view (much from Loren) based on the same data flaws CT had. Business travel could be extensive and there is no reasoning the tens of millions of corporations don't have full low berths shipping people back and forth to their interests.
It's human nature. Look, I have 4 holding in 3 sectors over a 4 sector area. LOL Savage is not going back and forth all year.
There are many arguments here. There is some good adventuring here. Also, the players are not always wealthy and often work for another individual. Marc's Traveller promoted Travel in CT. So, I think you're restricting yourselves. Pulling a number tens of billions lower than Rancke's calculation seems characteristic. How about Traveller's from the Vargr states hungry for human business?
Although, I like some GT products for lack of any resources, their world descriptions and lack of a decent economic foundation are weak. I don't want to be closed minded about something so open for debate. Pull up some canon reading I need to re-review.
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LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Any real world analogy is troublesome because of the scale and time involved in inter-sector travel. Additionally, in just about every single real world method of transportation for both goods and people, speed has been a significant factor in determining cost. In Traveller, costs are fixed by jump, not by jump rating. Thus, it takes three times as much to go three parsecs on a jump 1 liner as it does on a jump 3.
These factors make inter-sector travel incredibly expensive. I'm not a numbers wiz, so maybe someone else can calculate how much it would cost to go from the heart of one sector to the border of another, but I'm guessing it is astronomical.
For the simple reasons already described. Travel costs are huge, which restricts travel even in local terms to the well off. Inter-sector travel is for the 1%, the interstellar governments, and major corporations. Additionally, sector populations are also huge, which means 10% represents a vast number of people occupying a transient lifestyle.
Imagine in the real world if 10% of people traveled intercontinentally (and by that I mean US to Asia, a woefully inadequate analogy, but I'm willing to throw you some bones) constantly. That's 700 million people, give or take.
Anyone with stock in an international airline would be a billionaire.
They are all substantial, as they're drawn from canonical sources. There's no extraneous handwaving involved at looking at travel costs. On the other hand, you've simply plucked this number (10%) out of thin air. Now, IYTU that's perfectly fine. But I don't think the OTU sources support nearly that number.
Also, if you think about it a little bit, it should become clear to you why this argument is spurious. Canon does not directly mention a number of things we are either 1) sure exist, 2) can be reasonably sure exist, 3) can logically deduce exist and even 4) likely, but not necessarily must exist.
In order to discuss anything other than what has actually already been printed, we need to examine the sources and make reasonable extrapolations. That doesn't make it insubstantial. That's like saying if there isn't a cost for underwear in the gear section, then everyone must be going commando.
I'm not relying on any material other than population figures and travel costs, both of which have been relatively consistent between editions.
There is a reason, and in fact more than one. To start, it's just too expensive. For another, unless you're dealing with a very specialized skillset, it's overwhelmingly likely you can find someone to do the same job in a sector sized economy. And if you can't, well, then like I said, it's a very specialized skill set, so it isn't going to be 10% of several hundred billion people. Additionally, just in our current world, with our (by Traveller standards, fast travel times), that kind of travel is exhausting and the province of a relatively small subset of the business community, which is itself a small subset of the entire population. I don't have figures, but I doubt fewer than 10% of workers will travel by air on the corporate dime once in their lives.
You may very well have holdings in a four sector area. Sadly, you aren't likely to ever see any but the sector you're living in. Just as an exercise, map out your four sector area business. Then calculate the time and the cost to visit them in a circuit. I think you'll see why you don't take the trip unless you absolutely have to, and even then, do you really imagine that 10% of the TU have four holdings in three sectors in a four sector area?
Again, if you want to say that IYTU the transient population of a server is 10%, go nuts. You could even do 20%, 30%, 100% or more. It's up to you. But if you want to say the sources support that kind of constant mass migration, I'm going to have to disagree.
The thing is, if the transport capacity and the easy achievability of travel you imagine actually existed, then that would simply be another nail in the coffin of the intellectual foundation of the Rebellion as it played out in Canon.
There'd be no real reason for Hard Times, since you could easily move vast populations cheaply into safe regions.
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Still would double to 2 if applying PopMult.
