The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[rancke]

That does seem low. Transients versus permenent residents, retirees?

"The entire Depot¹ system is devoted to an Imperial naval depot, and its population consists entirely of naval personnel. In peacetime, a depot's main function is research; there the navy develops and tests new ship prototypes. In war, a depot is able to supply, maintain, and repair a large fraction of the Imperial fleet." [SR:20]​

One notes that according to this quote, depots do not perform ordinary construction and maintenance in peacetime and no construction in wartime. But be that as it may, the population of 6.9 millions are naval personnel only. No resident civilians at all. In fact, GDW got most things right with this one. TL15, no civilians, decent personnel figure, captive government... The only faults I can find with it is that the starport apparently provides annual maintenance and ship construction for civilians (that's what the rules say is available at all Class A starports) and that the place isn't redzoned. If it was MY highly sensitive military installation, I sure would make it off limits to civilian traffic. I mean, it's not like there's a civilian population whose right have to be respected.

¹ Depot/Vega (Solomani Rim 1911 A00066B-F).​

Hans

 

[rancke]

For HG2 you can figure on .75-1.0 Mr per ton (TL15, fully decked out)

Somewhere between 6.75 million and 9 million tonnes of ships per fleet. (13.5 - 18 Tigress equivalents) Hmmmm something doesn't look right here.

You're not buying a new set of ships every year and throwing away the old set.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

You're not buying a new set of ships every year and throwing away the old set.


Hans

True...

This concussion is making existence hard. One moment thoughts seem (though I can't be certain) clear and the next I'm wondering what I'm even doing.

I was seeing funds as in TCS and the whole time you were talking annual tax base. Head Trauma: I don't recommend it.

 

[Vladika]

Thread digression (sort of)

Hans

I had to look up the genitive case as I wasn't clear on the proper use. (And I'm still not clear.)

Two examples (English)

singular noun ending s Chris Chris' hat or Chris's hat

It is Charles' birthday. It is Charles's birthday. (both correct)

So, is Hans' your preference or a Dane/Danish norm?

I'd rather use it the way you prefer but am also curious why one way and not the other?

 

[savage]

Depots have never been zoned. However, a military zone designation may be a good addition to OTU.

You know you can declare an emergency and land a civilian aircraft on a military airstrip. But the paperwork to get your plane back is pretty long. It's discouraging. If a military vessel, tows a civilian vessel, it can go to a military base.

Hans' numbers look fine for a minimum budget estimate. As mentioned, it's the upper limit that is hard to determine. Traveller does a bad job of discussing non-mainworld economics. I think it will be throwing a dart at a reasonable number. It is a spacefaring society. 50% of the economic benefit should happen off mainworld for it to function. Then there is also trade with client states...etc. All of this gets taxed and may not find it's way into a mainworld economy.

 

[whulorigan]

Depots have never been zoned. However, a military zone designation may be a good addition to OTU.

They certianly should be, I would think. Both Depot/Lishun and Depot/Vland are Red-zoned.

 

[savage]

Also MT data had Kaasu at TL G and Depot at TL F

I'm not sure what the logic is in making 1105 TL F and E. It seems like that might have been 1050 not 1105.

 

[whulorigan]

Also MT data had Kaasu at TL G and Depot at TL F

I'm not sure what the logic is in making 1105 TL F and E. It seems like that might have been 1050 not 1105.

IIRC, the original "Second Survey" of the IISS (in CT) was supposed to have been published in 1065. So maybe the above TLs are reflecting outdated info as of 1105, whereas MT is giving up-to-date info for Rebellion Campaign purposes?

 

[mike wightman]

Also MT data had Kaasu at TL G and Depot at TL F

I'm not sure what the logic is in making 1105 TL F and E. It seems like that might have been 1050 not 1105.

If there is one piece of errata that should be applied to MT it would be the downgrading of nearly every TL16 world that they introduced.

The Imperium has only been TL-F in the core worlds for century or so according to canon, and yet DGP sees fit to make up loads of high pop TL-G worlds.
The Imperium would be buying this technology for the IN hand over fist and building a TL-G fleet, not completing the upgrade to a fully TL-F fleet which is where we are at pre-FFW.

TL-F is Imperial maximum.

TL-G+ is for research stations, very occasional alien worlds, extinct civilisations.

 

[mike wightman]

A couple of thoughts:

how many of the AHLs we have the full build history for were constructed in a Depot system and how many at megacorp shipyards for IN contracts?

how big is the IN transport fleet?

by TL12+ machinery will be so computerised it will have operating instructions, self diagnosis, repair manuals all built in and easily accessed by the meat-being that thinks they are in charge. The repair instructions will be viewable on any hand computer in an easier to follow format than the instructions to assemble Swedish furniture

 

[aramis]

If there is one piece of errata that should be applied to MT it would be the downgrading of nearly every TL16 world that they introduced.

The Imperium has only been TL-F in the core worlds for century or so according to canon, and yet DGP sees fit to make up loads of high pop TL-G worlds.
The Imperium would be buying this technology for the IN hand over fist and building a TL-G fleet, not completing the upgrade to a fully TL-F fleet which is where we are at pre-FFW.

TL-F is Imperial maximum.

TL-G+ is for research stations, very occasional alien worlds, extinct civilisations.

The Imperium may only have been TL-15 for a century, but it's possible some of those worlds were TL15 for longer than that.

Oh, and one of them is TL H... but they're paranoids and don't leave home. As in, don't go down the street, let alone off world.

 

[rancke]

The Imperium may only have been TL-15 for a century, but it's possible some of those worlds were TL15 for longer than that.

Yes, but DGP went against previously published material when the made TL16 the Imperial maximum. I agree with Mike. The plethora of TL16 worlds introduced by DGP should be retconned. I'm only sorry that the retcon didn't include Vincennes and Depot/Deneb.

IMTU those worlds were always TL15 but borderline TL16 in one technological area.

I agree with Wil about a few early TL16 worlds not turning the Imperium TL16 overnight, though. All they'll do to begin with is small stuff, like upgrading computers in the Imperial Navy's ships to factor 10. :devil:


Hans

 

[rancke]

IIRC, the original "Second Survey" of the IISS (in CT) was supposed to have been published in 1065. So maybe the above TLs are reflecting outdated info as of 1105, whereas MT is giving up-to-date info for Rebellion Campaign purposes?

The Second Survey was a comprehensive update of every Imperial world (and a lot more). But I've never been able to believe that the Scouts don't update UWPs of important worlds more often than every six centuries. IMO a survey of a world like Kaasu or Depot/Corridor might be a year old, but certainly not more than that.


Hans

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

The genitive of Hans is Hans'.

Actually, the English genitive of Hans is Hans's. The 's' in your name is immaterial in this case. There are some rare exceptions to this (e.g. Achilles', Moses', Aristophenes', et al.), but since you're not an ancient or religious figure (yet), that rule does not apply to you.

Hans' would indicate the possession of a plurality of Hans, like if the Rebel Alliance cloned itself an army of Corellian smugglers and they all decided to claim the Millenium Falcon as community property.

 

[Vladika]

The Second Survey was a comprehensive update of every Imperial world (and a lot more). But I've never been able to believe that the Scouts don't update UWPs of important worlds more often than every six centuries. IMO a survey of a world like Kaasu or Depot/Corridor might be a year old, but certainly not more than that.


Hans

Certainly the early CT books would imply the truth of this. Why else would Scout Ships be on loan to PCs and they be expected to keep the Scout Service appraised of their finding and logs when reaching a system with a Scout Base?

Can anyone possibly believe the data would be so far out of date if for no other reason than accurate TAX collections?

 

[Dagrill]

Going by HG rules:

* A Factor T meson spinal is TL 15.
* TL15 power plants are half the size and cost of TL13 power plants.
* TL15 armor is half the volume of TL13 armor.
* TL15 computers have a considerable combat advantage over TL13 computers.
* TL15 50 ton missile bays are one factor better than the TL13 equivalent.
* TL15 100T repulsor bays are two factors better than their TL13 equivalents.
* The largest nuclear damper available at TL13 is 3 as opposed to 9 at TL 15.
* TL15 fuel purification plants are 60% the size of TL13 purifiers.​

There's a reason why TL15 ships are three times as effective as TL13 ships.
Hans

Yes Hans that's what I'm trying to explain to you. The Mongoose Plankwell has all the above AT TL 15 (or F). What they are doing is building those elements at lower TL's which have reached their peak, T5 supports this (look at space weapons) so Marc obviously likes the idea.

Mongoose includes damage to Hull & Structure, so a TL13 Hull is 10% more and 10% stronger than a TL12 Hull which is the default Hull setting. So you code argue a Mongoose Plankwell is 10% more effective than a CT HG Plankwell, (it's an extra level of detail that makes massed fleet combat a real pain to run).

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

First approximation:
Population: 15 trillion
Average TL: 12
Average per capita income: Cr16,000
Gross Imperium Product: TCr240,000
Average military spending of Imperial member worlds: 3%
Total military spending of Imperial member worlds: TCr7,200
Imperial cut: 30%
Imperial military budget: TCr2,160
If anyone wants to refine that by going through the lists of UWPs and calculate the GWPs of the high-population worlds (or all the worlds), be my guest.
Hans

Hi Hans,

I would take the figure as Imperium's total budget, where else does it raise money from?

As there isn't much of an army, most would be split between the Navy & bureaucracy, so I'd give the Navy 1,000 TCr (nice round number), with roughly
a similar amount of ships in reserve (and costing only 1% maintenance).

Kind Regards

David

I

 

[savage]

The Imperium may only have been TL-15 for a century, but it's possible some of those worlds were TL15 for longer than that.

Oh, and one of them is TL H... but they're paranoids and don't leave home. As in, don't go down the street, let alone off world.

I'll bite. Who is TL H. I knew a ref with a TL H world in a pocket campaign. They we're paranoid about spreading tech. They spent all their time study of races and gambling in the futures market. :rofl:


Everyone,
DG might have introduced TL16 into the Imperium during MT, but it still stands that TL 16 is canon. Marc has not announced the removal of DG from Canon. Although, I have commented before that the lack of "all" DG material being widely available negates some of the canon value add. I myself do not have 3 of the DG Journals and refuse to pay $60+ for them.

Dagrill,
I don't think that Hans's estimate is the Imperium's total budget but an estimation of the mainworld minimum budget.

 

[rancke]

The Mongoose Plankwell has all the above AT TL 15 (or F).

You're not making sense. If a ship has a hull made of TL15 armor, a TL15 spinal mount, a TL15 power plant, a TL15 computer, TL15 missile bays, TL15repulsor bays, a TL15 nuclear damper, and a TL15 fuel purification plan, then it is TL15, even if it was built on a TL13 world. Which, incidentally, is not possible, since the definition of TL13 means not being able to build TL15 stuff (unless advanced in that area).

I suppose it would be possible to build the jump and maneuver drives on worlds with appropriately lower tech levels and ship them to the TL15 shipyard to be installed, but since drives cost the same to build at TL15, there's not much point.

What they are doing is building those elements at lower TL's which have reached their peak, T5 supports this (look at space weapons) so Marc obviously likes the idea.

I'm less interested in Marc Miller's likes and dislikes¹ than in the Traveller Universe making sense.

¹ Except that it saddens me when he likes things that don't make sense. :smirk:​

Mongoose includes damage to Hull & Structure, so a TL13 Hull is 10% more and 10% stronger than a TL12 Hull which is the default Hull setting.

Why isn't a TL15 hull 20% stronger than a TL15 hull? And how do you armor a ship?

So you code argue a Mongoose Plankwell is 10% more effective than a CT HG Plankwell.

I don't see how you could. More effective how? But even if you could, that's just as bad. A Mongoose Plankwell should be the same as a CT HG Plankwell.

Oh, and how would a TL15 Mongoose Plankwell compare to a TL13 Mongoose Plankwell?


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

Drakon is right, in that we can teach lower TL worlds to elevate their TL. But do we want to. This is an empire. Also, I would assume that all of the Imperium should be TL14/15 by 1105.

Hi,

Strephron and Dulinor are both concerned about the 'stagnation' of the empire & the lack of attachment of member worlds to the empire. From Strephron's actions it would seem that yes he wants to improve the TL of member worlds and therefore their commitment to the empire.

He has limited resources and he has only been emperor for 3 decades or so with a multitude of problems like investing in one world irritates the neighbours, so I would think limited action in key areas, presumably those identified by the psychohistorian types as most likely to achieve results.

Kind Regards

David