The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[rancke]

I don't think that Hans's estimate is the Imperium's total budget but an estimation of the mainworld minimum budget.

The 15 trillion is the canonical figure for the total population of the Imperium. It ought to include everyone living in the Imperium, on or off a planetary surface.

Incidentally, the difference between mainworld and system population is a huge can of worms and one that I ignore when calculating individual GWPs.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I would take the figure as Imperium's total budget, where else does it raise money from?

The stock the Imperial Family owns in interstellar corporations. GT added the tidbit that the price of getting an Imperial charter was that the Emperor got a 2% share of the company (which he can but almost never do dispose of), but that the Imperial family had a huge stock portfolio is established from early days.

It's perfectly possible that the Imperium imposes another cut of the GWP for other expenses. Or it's possible that the income from the shares is enough to pay for the entire Imperial Bureaucracy. We simply don't have that information. But we do know that the 30% of the member world's military budget goes to the Imperium's military budget alone.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I'll bite. Who is TL H.

Sabmiqys.

DG might have introduced TL16 into the Imperium during MT, but it still stands that TL 16 is canon. Marc has not announced the removal of DG from Canon.

But he has re-retconned the tech level of Kaasu. That's canon too. And I would be wary of relying too much on "It's canon because Marc says so" lest you have to consider the change in Depot/Corridor's tech level as equally canonical. One shouldn't decide on what is and what isn't good canon based on what one likes and dislikes but on what makes sense and what does not make sense. If depots really are major fleet installations, it does not make sense that they would import anything less than TL15 stuff. If the Imperium's maximum tech level was 15 in 1105, it doesn't really make sense that the T5 UWP listings for 1105 have several worlds with TL16.

Personally, I don't mind a few borderline TL16 worlds that ticked over into very early TL16 by 1116. I do object to fully mature TL16 worlds that have been around since before 1105. YMMV and Marc's obviously does, but that's how I feel.

(Incidentally, I liked the writeup of Vincennes; I just don't think it makes sense in context ).


Hans

 

[savage]

The 15 trillion is the canonical figure for the total population of the Imperium. It ought to include everyone living in the Imperium, on or off a planetary surface.

Incidentally, the difference between mainworld and system population is a huge can of worms and one that I ignore when calculating individual GWPs.


Hans

Canonical figure? From where? GT?

Yes the other proceeds are a :CoW:
But there is a lot!

 

[rancke]

Canonical figure? From where? GT?

It's from TD10.

See this thread for more on the subject.


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

First approximation:

Population: 15 trillion
Average TL: 12
Average per capita income: Cr16,000
Gross Imperium Product: TCr240,000
Average military spending of Imperial member worlds: 3%
Total military spending of Imperial member worlds: TCr7,200
Imperial cut: 30%
Imperial military budget: TCr2,160

If anyone wants to refine that by going through the lists of UWPs and calculate the GWPs of the high-population worlds (or all the worlds), be my guest.


Hans

The Imperial Trade Map Analysis shows the results of:

Systems 8924
Population 10.59 trillion
Per Capita GSP TCr7,859
Gross Imperial Product TCr83,243
Gross World Military TCr2,500
Gross Imperial Military TCr750

 

[rancke]

The Imperial Trade Map Analysis shows the results of:

Systems 8924
Population 10.59 trillion
Per Capita GSP TCr7,859
Gross Imperial Product TCr83,243
Gross World Military TCr2,500
Gross Imperial Military TCr750

TD10 says population is 15.77 trillion on 11197 worlds in 8976 systems.

A population of 10.59 trillion on the mainworlds means 5.18 trillion (very close to a third) living off mainworlds.

An average per capita income of Cr7,859 (I assume the T in front is a typo ) means an average tech level of 8. That seems a bit low. The canonical average is 12. The third of the population that is unaccounted for will pull the average up, but even if almost all of them lived at TL15, they could only pull it up to a bit over 10.

In any case, the Gross Imperial Product is far too low.


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

TD10 says population is 15.77 trillion on 11197 worlds in 8976 systems.

My numbers are from the analysis T5 Second Survey data. I have several serious questions about the DGP data and their analysis.

Most significantly, the T5 Second Survey redid all of the UWPs of every world in the Imperium. Partly because of, and in response to, the issues with the initial DGP data.

As I've said before, I believe the "11,000 worlds in the Third Imperium" color text should include Solomani Sphere. Which changes both the number of worlds and the population.

An average per capita income of Cr7,859 (I assume the T in front is a typo ) means an average tech level of 8. That seems a bit low. The canonical average is 12. The third of the population that is unaccounted for will pull the average up, but even if almost all of them lived at TL15, they could only pull it up to a bit over 10.

If the color text based upon an unfounded estimate says one thing and the detailed analysis of the actual data as presented says another, which do you believe?

 

[rancke]

My numbers are from the analysis T5 Second Survey data.

So do the populations of the T5 UWPs officially include everyone living in the system? If they don't, they are per definition lowballing the true figure. By how much is another question.

I must say that I'd like it very much if the UWP populations were changed from mainworld population to system population. Though I would like it even better if it was accompanied by increasing those figures by 50%. But I could work with a population of 10 trillion. What I find more difficult to accept is such low average tech levels.

As I've said before, I believe the "11,000 worlds in the Third Imperium" color text should include Solomani Sphere. Which changes both the number of worlds and the population.

I don't think that works. By 1100 people should have realized that the Solomani Confederation systems aren't there any more. Besides, the DGP mainworld count is pretty close to the T5 count. I don't mind accepting that DGP's 8976 worlds are in error and is only 8924 worlds (Or, better yet, that 52 Imperial systems have two worlds that are both so significant that they're both counted as mainworlds -- hurray for a little variety in the setting).

But that still leaves the secondary populations.

If the color text based upon an unfounded estimate says one thing and the detailed analysis of the actual data as presented says another, which do you believe?

Both if I can reconcile them.

But I wasn't basing the comment about average Imperial technology on color text. I was basing it on the technology chart. What does the technology chart in T5 say about the Imperial average tech level?


Hans

 

[McPerth]

The Imperial Trade Map Analysis shows the results of:

Systems 8924
Population 10.59 trillion
Per Capita GSP TCr7,859
Gross Imperial Product TCr83,243
Gross World Military TCr2,500
Gross Imperial Military TCr750

See, in any case, that, if we asume an average population multiple of 5, the sum of all worlds with pop 8+ would be (according to your link):

• 244 pop A worlds*50 billion each=12000 billion inhabitants
• 605 pop 9 worlds*5 billion each=3025 billion inhabitants
• 898 pop 8 worlds*0.5 billion each=449 billion inhabitants
• Total for above= 15674 billion inhabitants

Quite closer to Hans's numbers (even a Little higher, as it would be rounded to 16 if talking about trillions) than to yours...

 

[aramis]

I'll bite. Who is TL H. I knew a ref with a TL H world in a pocket campaign. They we're paranoid about spreading tech. They spent all their time study of races and gambling in the futures market. :rofl:


Everyone,
DG might have introduced TL16 into the Imperium during MT, but it still stands that TL 16 is canon. Marc has not announced the removal of DG from Canon. Although, I have commented before that the lack of "all" DG material being widely available negates some of the canon value add. I myself do not have 3 of the DG Journals and refuse to pay $60+ for them.

Sabmiqys (Antares 2117).


Now, in re Secondary Populations...
It's impossible for them to reach 1/3 using the extension generation mode - the largest will be pop-2, which means at most 10%, more likely 1-5%, and generally, that means needing 6-10 worlds.

If using generate-then-pick mainworld, and not reducing secondaries, the mainworld can be as low as about 1/4 of the total system population.

 

[Dagrill]

Actually, the English genitive of Hans is Hans's. The 's' in your name is immaterial in this case. There are some rare exceptions to this (e.g. Achilles', Moses', Aristophenes', et al.), but since you're not an ancient or religious figure (yet), that rule does not apply to you.

I see Hans as my Guru (on Traveller anyway)

I might start the Cult of Hans

Kind regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

You're not making sense. If a ship has a hull made of TL15 armor, a TL15 spinal mount, a TL15 power plant, a TL15 computer, TL15 missile bays, TL15repulsor bays, a TL15 nuclear damper, and a TL15 fuel purification plan, then it is TL15, even if it was built on a TL13 world. Which, incidentally, is not possible, since the definition of TL13 means not being able to build TL15 stuff (unless advanced in that area).

I suppose it would be possible to build the jump and maneuver drives on worlds with appropriately lower tech levels and ship them to the TL15 shipyard to be installed, but since drives cost the same to build at TL15, there's not much point.

Oh, and how would a TL15 Mongoose Plankwell compare to a TL13 Mongoose Plankwell? Hans

Hi,

It's difficult to explain without violating copyright, but the CT FS Plankwell has J4 M5.

That means the Jump Drive is TL13, Mongoose give it a Power Plant 6 (at TL12 or possibly 13 or 14, there's no difference in size & cost here) and Manoeuvre Drive 6 at TL11 (reducing size at an increase in cost), which makes it faster than a CT Plankwell, there's no agility or energy points.

Possibly the best way of thinking of it is to go down to the Naval base and adding some TL6 MG's to your tL8 warship, the warship doesn't suddenly stop being TL8.

You can't build a Mongoose Plankwell at TL13, as maximum Hull size for a TL13computer is 100ktons, but obviously if you built a mini Plankwell it would be less than 50% as good,

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

The stock the Imperial Family owns in interstellar corporations. GT added the tidbit that the price of getting an Imperial charter was that the Emperor got a 2% share of the company (which he can but almost never do dispose of), but that the Imperial family had a huge stock portfolio is established from early days.

It's perfectly possible that the Imperium imposes another cut of the GWP for other expenses. Or it's possible that the income from the shares is enough to pay for the entire Imperial Bureaucracy. We simply don't have that information. But we do know that the 30% of the member world's military budget goes to the Imperium's military budget alone.
Hans

Thanks Hans,

I'd totally forgotten about the Megacorps.

Presumably any additional taxation goes to the Archdukes after Strephron gives them the power to raise taxes?

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Sabmiqys.

Personally, I don't mind a few borderline TL16 worlds that ticked over into very early TL16 by 1116. I do object to fully mature TL16 worlds that have been around since before 1105. YMMV and Marc's obviously does, but that's how I feel.

(Incidentally, I liked the writeup of Vincennes; I just don't think it makes sense in context ).

Hans

I've been looking at Deneb & besided Vincennes with it's huge population there is a research station at Pashus 1432, which makes a lot more sense for TL G (in whatever they are researching)..
Kind regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

TD10 says population is 15.77 trillion on 11197 worlds in 8976 systems.

A population of 10.59 trillion on the mainworlds means 5.18 trillion (very close to a third) living off mainworlds.

An average per capita income of Cr7,859 (I assume the T in front is a typo ) means an average tech level of 8. That seems a bit low. The canonical average is 12. The third of the population that is unaccounted for will pull the average up, but even if almost all of them lived at TL15, they could only pull it up to a bit over 10.

In any case, the Gross Imperial Product is far too low.
Hans

Hans,

Du TL8 and lower worlds contribute taxes to the Imperium? (I might be mis-reading something I read probably in TCS).

Kind Regards

David

 

[savage]

Sabmiqys.


But he has re-retconned the tech level of Kaasu. That's canon too. And I would be wary of relying too much on "It's canon because Marc says so" lest you have to consider the change in Depot/Corridor's tech level as equally canonical. One shouldn't decide on what is and what isn't good canon based on what one likes and dislikes but on what makes sense and what does not make sense. If depots really are major fleet installations, it does not make sense that they would import anything less than TL15 stuff. If the Imperium's maximum tech level was 15 in 1105, it doesn't really make sense that the T5 UWP listings for 1105 have several worlds with TL16.

Personally, I don't mind a few borderline TL16 worlds that ticked over into very early TL16 by 1116. I do object to fully mature TL16 worlds that have been around since before 1105. YMMV and Marc's obviously does, but that's how I feel.

(Incidentally, I liked the writeup of Vincennes; I just don't think it makes sense in context ).


Hans

I'll read up on Vincennes. I see that the H is 1115. I like the variation and feel well about changes in TL. I can accept some change but don't like to do rework.

 

[rancke]

It's difficult to explain without violating copyright, but the CT FS Plankwell has J4 M5.

Yes. And a hull made of TL15 armor, a TL15 factor T spinal mount, a factor-8 TL15 power plant, a model 9/fib TL15 computer, TL15 missile bays, TL15 repulsor bays, a factor-9 TL15 nuclear damper, and a TL15 fuel purification plant.

That means the Jump Drive is TL13...

No, it means that a TL13 jump drive costs the same and work as well as the Plankwell's TL15 jump drive.

...Mongoose give it a Power Plant 6 (at TL12 or possibly 13 or 14, there's no difference in size & cost here)...

Wrong. TL13 power plants are twice the size and cost of the equivalent TL15 power plant.

...and Manoeuvre Drive 6 at TL11 (reducing size at an increase in cost), which makes it faster than a CT Plankwell...

Maneuver drive 6 can be built at TL9, but the cost is the same for one built at TL15.

...there's no agility or energy points.

There is in HG.

You can't build a Mongoose Plankwell at TL13, as maximum Hull size for a TL13computer is 100ktons, but obviously if you built a mini Plankwell it would be less than 50% as good.

If you built a mini Plankwell, it wouldn't be a Plankwell.

As far as I am concerned, there is no such think a a Mongoose Plankwell as distinct from a CT Plankwell. There is a battleship class called the Plankwell that the Imperium is building in the Classic Era described in CT terms or there is the exact same ship class described in MgT terms.

And if the Mongoose ship design system makes a TL13 design just as powerful as a similar TL15 design, it would be a huge failure as a ship design system, since TL15 ships would logically be superior to TL13 ships in a number of ways (such as armor, spinal, power plant, etc., etc.). But I can't really believe this is actually the case.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I've been looking at Deneb & besided Vincennes with it's huge population there is a research station at Pashus 1432, which makes a lot more sense for TL G (in whatever they are researching).

Vencennes has quite a decent population with its 10 billion inhabitants, but there are Imperial worlds with 90 billion inhabitants, so there's nothing special there.

Imperial research stations are half a dozen to a sector and tend to research a single subject at a time. Any results they get would go to Capital, not the nearest member world.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Now, in re Secondary Populations...
It's impossible for them to reach 1/3 using the extension generation mode - the largest will be pop-2, which means at most 10%, more likely 1-5%, and generally, that means needing 6-10 worlds.

Secondary populations would be half of the mainworld populations, not 1/3. They're 1/3rd of the canonical total, hence the mainworld populations would be 2/3rds of the total.

Anyway, I don't believe in any in-setting process that would restrict secondary worlds to population levels less than that of the mainworld. That limit is pure meta-game mechanics.

Belters (people living in belts, not prospectors) could contribute to the secondary population if they didn't all live in the same belt (See Glisten for an example).

(Counting an entire belt as one world is weird in the first place.)

And let's not forget that canonical example I found where the secondary population was orders of magnitude bigger than that of the mainworld.

If using generate-then-pick mainworld, and not reducing secondaries, the mainworld can be as low as about 1/4 of the total system population.

Let's use that then.


Hans