Theophilus
SOC-13
thank you.
I was aware of the Orpheides from original TCS
I was aware of the Orpheides from original TCS
The Imperial Corridor Fleet
- Thread starter tjoneslo
- Start date
T20:GT? What's that?
We've talked about Sector Fleet before. We know that it contradicts previosly published material (like there being a separate sector fleet in the first place) and is unbelievable in it's own right (force levels ridiculously low). So why quote patently unrealistic starements like subsector fleets being composed of ONE cruiser plus some small fry?
Mind you, having a sector fleet separate from the subsector fleets to inflate the number of combat vessels would be all right by me. Say that sector fleets were composed of from 1 to 4 numbered fleets on top of the numbered fleets stationed in the subsectors. That could add 60 or 70 numbered fleets to the canonical 320 and increase the number of combat vessels to around 24,000.
Hans
Pardon T20: GF - Grand Fleet = MgT:Sector Fleet
GF came first, but much was pulled from it to create SF. T20 is 100 years before CT/MgT/GT. These books do not mention or take the timeline into consideration.
I like the concept not the execution. It goes on to read the large assets are maintained and ready to move out when needed from Depots (or I assume the primary sector starport). I think the number of cruisers in the Subsector fleet needs to be bumped up. I don't think it's advantageous to put all heavy assets spread thinly. Remember a lot of what went into T20 came of old threads on COTI.
It also mentions a heavy monitor (750kdt) squadron at Capital.
So, lets say you leave expensive Batrons at home and subsector fleets have a heavy carrier/cruiser, a number of cruisers (4-8), double the destroyers. That is an effective force for most of the Imperium.
Unfortunately, we don't have a GF or SF for MT. ;(
No it isn't. Since I've already explained why a couple of times in this thread, I'm not going to bother to repeat myself but just mention that you're dead wrong. A single heavy cruiser, 4-8 cruisers, and 8-16 destroyers is a force the Zhodani would have no trouble whatsoever mustering a force strong enough to swat like a fly. And, yes, I have considered the TL disadvantage in reaching that conclusion.
Also, if you're stationing about 7 combat vessels in each subsector fleet, your Sector Fleet ends up being 900 combat vessels strong.
Or for CT.
The lack of a GF or SF for MT is presumably due to the fact that according to MT material, there is no such thing as a separate sector fleet. Sectors fleets are simply the massed IN fleets stationed in each separate sector.
Hans
A single heavy cruiser, 4-8 cruisers, and 8-16 destroyers is a force the Zhodani would have no trouble whatsoever mustering a force strong enough to swat like a fly. And, yes, I have considered the TL disadvantage in reaching that conclusion.
Also, if you're stationing about 7 combat vessels in each subsector fleet, your Sector Fleet ends up being 900 combat vessels strong.
Or for CT.
The lack of a GF or SF for MT is presumably due to the fact that according to MT material, there is no such thing as a separate sector fleet. Sectors fleets are simply the massed IN fleets stationed in each separate sector.
Hans
Hans, the subsector has a reserve fleet and main fleet. Since, each Subsector can evaluate be evaluated differently, we need to look at "ave" INS numbered fleet. In Fornast sector they may not need heavy vessels. Parts of Deneb may need smaller squadrons.
Find the lowest, average, and highest denominator. I read your previous posts. Corridor does not need all of it's battlewagons on the front line. It needs massive coordinated patrols. Hence, it ends up with the biggest fleet.
Per GF the Batron's sweep around, as needed not stagnant or separated.
Or bigger. They are, after all, defending against the awesome might of the massed Vargr fleets.
However, I'm perfectly fine with differentiated fleet adapted to specific locations. Indeed, I think that goes without saying. What I'm not fine with is the deviations from the average that GF and SF apparently talk about.
The thing about an average figure is that for every instance with numbers less than the average, you're automatically implying the existence of one or more instances with correspondinly higher than average numbers.
Corridor's fleets do need more than one heavy cruiser, six light cruisers, and 12 escorts each. A lot more.
And keep in mind that Corridor's corewards subsectors have two fleets stationed in each. What would be the point of that if they were both half-strength1? There may be alternate explanations, but the most obvious inference to draw is that Imperial fleets tend to be fairly alike in strength and that each of those subsectors has about twice the normal strength of one fleet stationed (give or take a squadron or two perhaps).
1 Not to mention that those seven cruisers and dozen escorts is a LOT less than half the strength of an ordinary fleet.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The sources we have for CT IN composition boil down to High Guard, S:9, LD and of course FFW.
The rules for squadrons and fleet allocation in FFW match with what is written. IN regular squadron counters are deployed to IN bases, but there are only a few fleet counters to allocate to those bases, Squadrons allocated to a base are stuck there until a fleet moves to them and amalgamates them into its fleet.
Planets may have their own planetary/colonial squadrons which are a TL lower than IN forces (regardless of world TL) and these may be incorporated into a fleet when the fleet jumps to them.
One of the fleet counters in FFW is called the Corridor fleet - does this make it the sector level fleet or is it just a designation used by the IN for the squadrons held in reserve to reinforce the SM according to the battle plan laid out in S:9?
The MT authors made quite a few changes - first they used the word reserve to mean the colonial/second rate squadrons rather than the reinforcement squadrons, and the most important one was to pin down all regular squadrons to a fleet.
I have tried to rationalise this as being a difference of perspective. The IN organisation of FFW/CT is written from a local forces deployment point of view, while the MT version is how the sector fleet admirals view their organisation.
The rules for squadrons and fleet allocation in FFW match with what is written. IN regular squadron counters are deployed to IN bases, but there are only a few fleet counters to allocate to those bases, Squadrons allocated to a base are stuck there until a fleet moves to them and amalgamates them into its fleet.
Planets may have their own planetary/colonial squadrons which are a TL lower than IN forces (regardless of world TL) and these may be incorporated into a fleet when the fleet jumps to them.
One of the fleet counters in FFW is called the Corridor fleet - does this make it the sector level fleet or is it just a designation used by the IN for the squadrons held in reserve to reinforce the SM according to the battle plan laid out in S:9?
The MT authors made quite a few changes - first they used the word reserve to mean the colonial/second rate squadrons rather than the reinforcement squadrons, and the most important one was to pin down all regular squadrons to a fleet.
I have tried to rationalise this as being a difference of perspective. The IN organisation of FFW/CT is written from a local forces deployment point of view, while the MT version is how the sector fleet admirals view their organisation.
And SMC.
The sources we have for OTU IN composition includes those mentioned above and several more. I see no reason not to take what they have to say into consideration. Ignoring something because it doesn't say what you'd like it to say is one thing, but a blanket dismissal is just wasteful.
But FFW does not match the OTU since it is based on the premise that all population multipliers are 1.
Several other features of FFW rules are obviously game artifacts to make it a good boardgame. Other features may or may not be game artifacts.
SMC shows roughly one fleet per subsector at the start of the "real" war (as opposed to the semi-random start of an FFW game). Squadrons being unable to move without an admiral along is an obvious example of a game artifact with no basis in "reality". The initial paucity of fleet counters in FFW has a very game-specific effect on the Imperial player's options. Presumably the effect is meant to be game-balancing rather than reflecting "reality" with great precision.
HG specifically states that individual worlds can procure ships from any world in their subsector. It follows logically that planetary units of worlds in Rhylanor, Mora, Trin's Veil, and Glisten may be TL15 and that the planetary forces of Rhylanor, Mora, Trin, and Glisten themselves definitely are TL15.
It's most likely the other Corridor Fleet -- the group of four fleets stationed in Corridor over and above the 16 fleets stationed to individual subsectors.
Yeah, the MT texts definitely do not dovetail neatly with the CT texts. Some interpretation required.
Hans
Actually, Corridor has a reaction, training, mothball and security fleet. Corridor "sector" Fleet would consist of elements from the subsector fleets, and the reaction fleet (Batron's, etc). Reserve Fleets consist of mothballed, and subsector reserve fleets.
This scenario is true for a few sectors, except for the Reaction fleet. The only other special fleets I have found are in Capital. This information is comprised from MT: RS, T20: GF, and MgT SF. Probably a few other GT and DGP items.
Actually, I don't think there's any evidence of mothballed ships in Corridor, unless it's hiding in the Rapid Repo adventure. Certainly the much-quoted passage about a Plankwell squadron in FS does not refer to mothballing its ships.
Corridor Sector Fleet is a named fleet composed of all numbered fleets stationed in Corridor's subsectors. The four fleets of the other Corridor Fleet would most likely not be part of it, since it is another Corridor Fleet.
The 21st Century term 'Reserve fleet' refers to patially or fully mothballed ships. The MT term 'Reserve Fleet' is the counterpart to CT's 'subsector navy' and thus a fully active collection of ships (of exceedingly vague composition).
We seem to be repeating ourselves quite a lot, don't we?
Hans
sometimes we do...but people join in and add spins.
Yes. It is quoted in several texts as mentioned not just the plankwell. T20:GF goes so far as to suggest every sector has a mothball fleet. I do not know what a TL 9 Depot would do with one but...these are the challenges.
What does it say? And what other texts says anything about mothballed ships in Corridor?
In this particular case I'd say the answer would be to increase the TL to 15. Unfortunately Marc Miller is strongly opposed to changing UWPs to fit an idea. And since there isn't a suitable world in each sector to fit the basic idea of what a depot is, we get these unexplainable depots.
Oh, sorry, make that "depots that no one has had the imagination to come up with a good explanation for yet, but surely that's just a matter of time".
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Depots are such a wonderful idea that someone should have come up with a standard by which all Imperial Depot systems are modelled.
This could then have been modified on a sector by sector basis but with certain core elements in common.
Hmmm....
This could then have been modified on a sector by sector basis but with certain core elements in common.
Hmmm....
I'll have to grab text another time. It's probably somewhere on the thread?
I have a solution to the uwp.
Should i ask Marc or have you actually spoke to him?I have a solution to the uwp.
I had an exchange with him concerning a different kind of UWP change many years ago. In fairness I suppose I should have mentioned that there seems to have been a softening in his attitude since then.
Hans
There are work arounds.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Some Depots are centers of research and development, and some are just what the name suggests: central storage and staging points. Corridor seems far more likely to be the latter, as it is seen as part of the front lines, keeping the narrow band between rifts open for the Imperium. My local National Guard Armory can certainly have TL7 equipment on hand without being able to make it themselves.
All depots are Imperial Navy installations and should be equipped to TL15 standard. They are also outposts, and outposts have never conformed to the official definition of tech levels being the sustainable tech level. (Not surprisingly, since the sustainable tech level of an outpost would be 0 more often than not).
But if you want to say that a TL 9 depot can maintain and repair TL15 ships and everyone living there use TL15 goods, that works too. Except for the sustainable tech level most likely not being 9.
Hans
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
If they work with stocks of parts for the fleet, sure. I agree that Depots are weird when it comes to TL, and since TL has several definitions as it is...
