The Reserve, Reserves, and Reservists of the IN

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
The term Colonial Navy, implies local resources, unless that changes definition as well.

The reserve fleet is defined as overage, semi-obsolete ships. Colonial Navies raised from local resources may or may not be up to the standards of Naval cast offs. I personally prefer having them as two seperate forces. The Subsector Navies handling local problems and leaving the Imperial Navy free to deal with Strategic Problems.

Until a war kicks off and then they (SN) are drafted (imperialized).
CT and MT agree on this point at least

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
The term Colonial Navy, implies local resources, unless that changes definition as well.

The reserve fleet is defined as overage, semi-obsolete ships. Colonial Navies raised from local resources may or may not be up to the standards of Naval cast offs. I personally prefer having them as two seperate forces. The Subsector Navies handling local problems and leaving the Imperial Navy free to deal with Strategic Problems.

Until a war kicks off and then they (SN) are drafted (imperialized).
CT and MT agree on this point at least </font>[/QUOTE]As do I. I see no conflict there. In times of war, IMTU, or in my interpretation of the reserve, the reserve fleet would be mobilized, the Colonial fleets would be, in large part, Imperialized and everyone would shake down and be entered into the line of battle.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
The term Colonial Navy, implies local resources, unless that changes definition as well.

The reserve fleet is defined as overage, semi-obsolete ships. Colonial Navies raised from local resources may or may not be up to the standards of Naval cast offs.

This is interesting...

You are assuming that the Imperium behaves consistently, with "Colonial Navies" doing this, and "reserve fleets" doing that...

That's not the way I've always interpreted the Imperium, although I can't actually remember what canonical references I got the idea from, apart from the worldgen system...

In my understanding of the OTU, such blanket statements always contain implicit "except when this isn't true" clauses.

That is, the "local resources" a colonial navy relies on consists not only of what can be produced in its own subsector, but what can be produced nearby, borrowed, begged or inherited from the Imperium, hired from the Aslan, or stolen from the Vargr. It may also include that lovely new squadron of Escort Cruisers generously donated by Tukera Lines, and so on.

The presence of Imperial castoffs is just part of the normal situation of local exceptionalism that makes the Imperium tick.

That is, equipment is not, in my view, a factor forcing a differentiation between colonial and reserve forces.

---

On terminology: in Australia, the Army Reserve is composed of part-time reservists.

The concept of part-time naval personnel does not appear in the OTU (aside from the Solomani Home Guard). It's an artifact of this debate, and an over-literal interpretation of canon.

The colonial navies can be considered to be reservists from the Imperial viewpoint, since they do not hold a fulltime place in the Imperial chain of command. The "Reserve Fleets" could be interpreted as primarily administrative and cadre bodies, to which sundry colonial squadrons are assigned in wartime.

This interpretation has the advantage of not adding new layers of complexity, while being a sustainable, although loose, interpretation of canon.

YMMV, as it should.

 

[aramis]

Just went and double checked: MT clearly keeps 3 layers of navy:
Imperial
Reserve
System

On page 52, top section, paragraph 2-3: Emphasis mine. Typos are the OCR by DTRPG, not mine.

General Background: An interstellar community operates under many unique restrictions-it consists of many island-planets adrift in an ocean of space. Communication between the worlds absolutely depends on technology. Ships flying between the worlds are vulnerable to pirates and raiders; the worlds themselves are vulnerable to attacks from unfriendly governments. To control such an ocean of stars, society must depend on its starfaring Navy.
Most interstellar states (whether individual nations on a world, independent worlds, small groups of worlds, or vast interstellar empires) maintain navies. These navies are organized to provide the most possible protection for their territory. In large groups of worlds (such as the Third Imperium and most of its interstellar neighbors), the Navy is organized with a three-tiered structure: the major forces of the Navy are the fleets (which together comprise the Imperial Navy); the local provinces (subsectors) maintain reserve fleets; worlds of high enough technology maintain their own system squadrons. The fleets are composed of the latest and best in warship technology; reserve fleets are usually with second line, obsolescent (but not obsolete) ships handed down from the fleets; system squadrons, supported by the tax base of only one world, are suited only for the defense of that world.

So hand, your duchy fleets ARE, according to MT, the reserve fleets. (Mine, too.) By definition, many reserve fleets might, in part or in whole, be colonial squadrons, raised locally, rather than "Devolved Naval Assets" handed by the fleet.

I knew there was a tie-in to HG and CT, I just couldn't remember where until today.

 

[alanb]

Some more emphasis on the composition of the reserve fleets...

The fleets are composed of the latest and best in warship technology; reserve fleets are usually with second line, obsolescent (but not obsolete) ships handed down from the fleets; system squadrons, supported by the tax base of only one world, are suited only for the defense of that world.

In short, the reserve fleets can have local(ish) produced/procured vessels as well as hand me downs. (Presumably, in most cases, hand me downs are preferable.) So the composition argument goes away as well...

As for system squadrons having jump-capable ships: if it's required for the defence of that world (system), and the world can afford them, then it appears they may well have them, even if non-starships are more common. And who determines what is required?

Note that the quote supports the general principles that "every rule has exceptions" and the Imperium is far from consistently organised.

Well spotted, Aramis!

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
If the reserve fleets are part of the Imperial Navy and staffed by full-timers, then why call them Reserve Fleets and not just normal Fleets?

Because the meaning of the word has changed slightly by 5630 AD?


Hans </font>[/QUOTE]As the millennia go by, the meanings of words will no doubt change, even substantially.

Talking to someone a hundred years from know, and you may be able to have a basic conversation, about food, water, bathroom, maybe even the weather. But politics? Widespread beliefs? Forget it.

By the 57th Century, things would be *very* different.

SF authors have long faced a great difficulty in portraying a "future" that would actually be like the "future", where people would act like they had actually grown up there.

It isn't easy.

The problem is, in a true accurate portrayal of "the future", the story and characters would be so incomprehensible that it would be nearly impossible to read or relate to. I know, I've read a few like that.

Because of this, it has long been necessary to include elements of the present in "the future" in order to make a story with characters that the reader can comprehend.

Traveller is no exception. It leans far toward the "present is in the future" side of things.

Traveller is already filled with and techy-speak. Because it is an RPG that must appeal widely (in theory, anyway), it cannot afford to be filled with additional neologisms.

This is why I believe that the term Reserve, militarily speaking, in the OTU, must be separate from Reservist, and both must be pinned down meaning what it does today, 2005 Earth (or so). We cannot go around inventing neologism left and right and wind up with a milieu that is comprehensible by anyone but a tiny handful of diehards (like me).

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
If the reserve fleets are part of the Imperial Navy and staffed by full-timers, then why call them Reserve Fleets and not just normal Fleets?

Because the meaning of the word has changed slightly by 5630 AD?


Hans </font>[/QUOTE]As the millennia go by, the meanings of words will no doubt change, even substantially.

Talking to someone a hundred years from know, and you may be able to have a basic conversation, about food, water, bathroom, maybe even the weather. But politics? Widespread beliefs? Forget it.

By the 57th Century, things would be *very* different.

SF authors have long faced a great difficulty in portraying a "future" that would actually be like the "future", where people would act like they had actually grown up there.

It isn't easy.

The problem is, in a true accurate portrayal of "the future", the story and characters would be so incomprehensible that it would be nearly impossible to read or relate to. I know, I've read a few like that.

Because of this, it has long been necessary to include elements of the present in "the future" in order to make a story with characters that the reader can comprehend.

Traveller is no exception. It leans far toward the "present is in the future" side of things.

Traveller is already filled with and techy-speak. Because it is an RPG that must appeal widely (in theory, anyway), it cannot afford to be filled with additional neologisms.

This is why I believe that the term Reserve, militarily speaking, in the OTU, must be separate from Reservist, and both must be pinned down meaning what it does today, 2005 Earth (or so). We cannot go around inventing neologism left and right and wind up with a milieu that is comprehensible by anyone but a tiny handful of diehards (like me). </font>[/QUOTE]I thought I said that already.

Though I definitely wasn't quite as eloquent. Well said sir.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
This is why I believe that the term Reserve, militarily speaking, in the OTU, must be separate from Reservist, and both must be pinned down meaning what it does today, 2005 Earth (or so).

These days, however, Reserve and Reservist both have a range of meanings.

Reserve, for example, includes strategic and tactical reserves, plus, of course, mobilisation reserves.

Reservists are members of what I just called mobilisation reserves. They may, or may not, be subject to part-time service. The point is that they can be mobilised when required.

While nobody has been able to point to a satisfactory present day equivalent of Imperial practice, this only suggests that there is no satisfactory present day equivalent of Imperial practice, not that Imperial practice is impossible. That is, it is entirely possible for Reserve formations to be partially or entirely composed of full time units that are controlled by local authorities when they are not required by the Imperium. It is also entirely possible for the personnel of such units to be considered Reservists, since they hold no place within the Imperial chain of command until mobilised, but are subject to such mobilisation.

Or, more briefly, the "subsector navies" and "colonial squadrons" of CT are (parts of) the Reserve Fleets of MT.

The difference is a combination of viewpoint, plus the fact that no systematic system of nomenclature was given during CT. That doesn't, incidentally, mean that no such system existed. It may not have, or it may simply not have been specified. That's Referee's Option.

Note that I said that I said that the subsector navies etc are only parts of the Reserve Fleets. It's quite possible that bits of the Scout Service, sundry merchant vessels, certain mercenary vessels and goodness knows what else might be similarly subject to mobilisation into these fleets in one area or another.

The Imperium is not consistent. It would be boring if it was.

 

[Hal]

Hans sort of raises a point, and one that up until now, I don't think anyone has ever really EXPLORED...

Consider:

Imperial navy: funded by the Imperium outright, commanded by a command structure under the Emperor, and based at Imperial Member worlds.

Where in the HELL are all of the subsector Naval bases? Where do they base out of? Where are the behind the scenes staff members?

An ommission by design? An ommission by accident?

 

[mike wightman]

Let's see now:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Colonial Naval base on Planetary
Squadron named planet Starport & TL
Alell No B A
Efate Yes A D
Equus No/S B B
Extolay Yes B A
Feri No/S B B
Jewell Yes/S A C
Porozlo No A A
Regina Yes/S A A/C
Wochiers No E 9
Zivije Yes/S C B</pre>[/QUOTE]My answer would be that the Colonial squadrons that make up the Duchy Navy can use any of the Naval bases, Scout bases, and facilities offered by A-C class Starports within their area of operation.

Though their true home port will be the subsector capital (except for Vilis, which hasn't got a Naval base - the only subsector capital within the Imperial Spinward Marches that hasn't got one ).

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Let's see now:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Colonial Naval base on Planetary
Sqadron named planet Starport & TL
Alell No B A
Efate Yes A D
Equus No/S B B
Extolay Yes B A
Feri No/S B B
Jewell Yes/S A C
Porozlo No A A
Regina Yes/S A A/C
Wochiers No E 9
Zivije Yes/S C B</pre>

My answer would be that the Colonial squadrons that make up the Duchy Navy can use any of the Naval bases, Scout bases, and facilities offered by A-C class Starports within their area of operation.

Though their true home port will be the subsector capital (except for Vilis, which hasn't got a Naval base - the only subsector capital within the Imperial Spinward Marches that hasn't got one ). [/quote]Works better than Ley Sector, which only has one Sector Capital, one Domain Capital but not one Subsector Capital. Oooops!!

 

[The Oz]

Here's how I see it.

Colonial Squadrons (never described as fleets or navies) are second-line ships manned from local resources and are allocated to the Imperial Navy "Reserve Fleet" in their subsector. However, that "Reserve Fleet" is an administrative entity =only= (as described in FSSI) and never serves as a tactical command. The purpose of the "Reserve Fleet" is to make sure that the Colonial Squadrons keep as up to date as possible on Imperial Navy plans and doctrine, so that when the Imperial Navy calls up the Colonial Squadrons for active service the ships and squadrons will fit right in with the regulars.

During peacetime, the Colonial squadrons are used by the local Imperial administration (led by the local Imperial nobles) as a "subsector fleet" or "subsector navy," conducting customs patrols, anti-piracy operations, local show-the-flag demonstrations, and lots of training. The personnel in these squadrons are full-time servicemen and women, and in CT you can generate one with the "subsector navy" option while in MT you do it with the "reserve fleet" option. The cohesiveness of "subsector" navies comes from similar training and doctrine (as prescribed by the "reserve fleet" administrators), lots of operations together, and probably exchanges of personnel to increase promotion opportunities and interoperability.

 

[mike wightman]

I wonder if there should be an option for someone to change Naval service?
If a tactical genius is found in the Colonial squadrons (subsector navy/reserve fleet character gen.) during an exercise wouldn't it be in the Imperial Navy's best interests to transfer them up and train them to an even higher standard?
Merchant Prince allows for merchant characters to move between types of merchant line - it would make some kind of sense to allow Naval personel to do the same.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I wonder if there should be an option for someone to change Naval service?
If a tactical genius is found in the Colonial squadrons (subsector navy/reserve fleet character gen.) during an exercise wouldn't it be in the Imperial Navy's best interests to transfer them up and train them to an even higher standard?
Merchant Prince allows for merchant characters to move between types of merchant line - it would make some kind of sense to allow Naval personel to do the same.

Or the other way around. A Imperial Navy Officer that has decided to retire and/or settle down but is too valuable to simply fade away.

 

[mike wightman]

Yep, that should be an option too.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rancke:
[qb]Because the meaning of [reserve] has changed slightly by 5630 AD?

That may be the case. However it was definitely written using 20th Century meanings. </font>[/QUOTE]If it had been definitely (i.e. indisputably) then we wouldn't be having the discussion. The problem is that the word 'reserve' is used for something that seems not to be a reserve unit in the 20th Century sense.

My suggestion was a handwave to solve the discrepancy by sticking to the description and disregarding the word. Your suggestion seems to be to change the description. That's fine, but you can't prove that you're right by pointing to one half of the two equally authoritative bits of canon that constitutes the discrepancy.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
The term Colonial Navy, implies local resources, unless that changes definition as well.

The term Colonial Navy is not used anywhere (that I'm aware of). And whatever the term 'colonial' actually means to the Imperium, it would seem to differ from what it means in the 21st Century, since neither the duchies, the subsectors, or the member worlds fit the definition of a colony of the Imperium.

My suggestion for what is meant by a colonial squadron: A squadron not directly under the control of the Imperial Navy, i.e. belonging to one of the duchy navies or one of the system navies. (So the reserve fleets wouldn't be colonial units whether they are raised and maintained locally or not).

The reserve fleet is defined as overage, semi-obsolete ships.

No, they're described as overage, semi-obsolete ships. They're defined as secondary fleets belonging to the Imperial Navy.

Colonial Navies raised from local resources may or may not be up to the standards of Naval cast offs.

I agree. It depends on the level of technology available inside the borders of the duchy in question. Note, however, that this is a point that the original authors missed, so duchy (subsector) navies are described collectively as inferior. I think this is partly wrong, but it is canon.

I personally prefer having them as two separate forces.

Me too.

The Subsector Navies handling local problems and leaving the Imperial Navy free to deal with Strategic Problems.

Well, I think the duchy navies and the IN cooperate a lot, but you're right: The duchy authorities have different priorities than the IN when they build ships and station forces.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Just went and double checked: MT clearly keeps 3 layers of navy:
Imperial
Reserve
System

No, CT clearly keeps three tiers of navies; in MT the middle tier has become an integral part of the Imperial Navy (see the organizational chart on p. 28 of Rebellion Sourcebook). The fact that this tier is maintained at the subsector level doesn't change that.

I'm not saying that MT doesn't say what you claim. I'm saying that what MT says is fundamentally different from what CT said.

Incidentally, MT also eliminates the system navies, reducing them to non-jump capable squadrons. [RebSbk. p. 29]


Hans

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
...Are the Colonial squadrons of FFW the Imperial ships of a century ago?
Are they new builds to an old design, or are they hand me downs?
...

Based on AM8 (Darrians), what can be learned of the maximum life expectancy of a TL15 ship? There's a mention of TL16 ships being very, very durable, compared to TL15 ships. I just don't remember what the exact phrase used was.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Though their true home port will be the subsector capital (except for Vilis, which hasn't got a Naval base - the only subsector capital within the Imperial Spinward Marches that hasn't got one ).

That could be a political decision. Vilis may have special provisions in its membership treaty with the Imperium. I assume that it does have a planetary naval base (even if it isn't shown in the UWP).


Hans