The Reserve, Reserves, and Reservists of the IN

[mike wightman]

Ah, Duke Norris administers parts of the Jewell, Vilis, Lanth, and Aramis subsectors.

So Vilis could fall into the Regina Duchy Navy.

Is there a map of the Spinward Marches Duchies anywhere?

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by robject:
Based on AM8 (Darrians), what can be learned of the maximum life expectancy of a TL15 ship? There's a mention of TL16 ships being very, very durable, compared to TL15 ships. I just don't remember what the exact phrase used was.

The number of TL15 warships expected by the Imperium to remain in service after 2000 years is zero. The percentage of TL15 starships which could remain in service after 2000 years, if the Imperium had a mind to keep and maintain them for longevity, is also zero.

AM:8, page 24.

There's also a relevant quote from GT AR4, page 44:

No known GTL12 could possibly last 2000 years in good working condition.

 

[Hal]

GURPS TRAVELLER SPACESHIPS has rules on the life expectancy of ships based on TL. I don't know if anyone would be interested in knowing it as it would not be "canon" for CT rules

 

[mike wightman]

Neither is MT, but that's been brought in

I personally think GT stuff is canonical for the OTU up until the assassination.

So if it fills in some details, it's worth looking at.

 

[mike wightman]

And speaking of MT, reading through the Rebellion Sourcebook I came to a reference about Colonial squadrons in the reserve fleet.
It's the section entitled Heirarchy of Squadrons on page 29.

 

[PBI]

Originally posted by rancke:

If it had been definitely (i.e. indisputably) then we wouldn't be having the discussion. The problem is that the word 'reserve' is used for something that seems not to be a reserve unit in the 20th Century sense.

'Reserve' doesn't equate with a 'Reserve Unit' even in the 20th century. I can understand where some of the confusion comes from, however, as the term 'Reserve Fleet' isn't very helpful in answering the question of whether it is a fleet assigned to the strategic reserve or a fleet compsed primarily of reservists.

There is a real world parallel in how NATO used to organize its ground forces in Central Europe. Certain brigades were designated as being reserve or in the reserve, but all that meant was that those brigades were kept as floaters to be sent where and when needed (i.e. the classic definition of a reserve). Canada's brigade, a formation staffed by regulars, was part of the reserve at one point, for example.

 

[The Oz]

I wonder if the change in term from CT's "subsector fleet" to MT's "reserve fleet" might be said to reflect the change in the universe: in CT the Imperium is basically at peace and the Colonial squadrons (which compose both the CT subsector fleets and the MT reserve fleets) are on peacetime duties in their home subsectors, while in MT the Imperium is at (civil) war and the Colonial squadrons have been called up to serve as "reserve fleets" for the Imperial navy (navies).

In other words a change in terminology caused by the change in the status of the Imperium. It's still the same ships and crews.

 

[mike wightman]

That works for me

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by The Oz:
I wonder if the change in term from CT's "subsector fleet" to MT's "reserve fleet" might be said to reflect the change in the universe: in CT the Imperium is basically at peace and the Colonial squadrons (which compose both the CT subsector fleets and the MT reserve fleets) are on peacetime duties in their home subsectors, while in MT the Imperium is at (civil) war and the Colonial squadrons have been called up to serve as "reserve fleets" for the Imperial navy (navies).

In other words a change in terminology caused by the change in the status of the Imperium. It's still the same ships and crews.

That would be an ingenious explanation (although the description in Rebellion sourcebook does seem to be that of the peacetime establishment) if the change had been from 'subsector fleet' to 'reserve fleet'. But it isn't. It's from 'Sunsector Navy' to 'reserve fleet'.

Here's what Webster's Unabridged has to say about 'navy':

1 The whole body of warships and auxiliaries belonging to a country or ruler.

2 The department of government charged with their management.

3) (often cap.) the complete body of such warships together with their officers and men, equipment, yards, etc., constituting the sea power of a nation.

The change is, in other words, from a navy (3) (one, mind you, that is expressely distinct from the Imperial Navy) that constitutes the space power of a subsector (i.e. duchy) to a fleet that is one out of many units belonging to the Imperial Navy. It's the difference between the Royal Navy and the USN 6th Fleet (Not an exact analogy, but you can't find an exact analogy on Earth).


Hans.

 

[PBI]

How about the change in terminology from CT to MT is because the authors screwed up or simply didn't care or never imagined that their terminology would be pickled apart like this? Wouldn't be the first time

You know, the IN-Subsector/Reserve-Planetary/Colonial fleet system reminds me a bit of how the Red Army classified its various divisions.

That, or all three levels of fleet structure have regulars and reserves?

Or maybe it's a combination of the Soviet Category system along with each level having a reserve component?

 

[Hal]

I think however, Hans, that the basic description you've outlined above plus the basic description that Subsector Navies are subject to imperialization is the right of it. Ultimately, the subsector navy is the whole body of warships belonging to the subsector itself. The rules and regulations being what they are (read Behind the Claw to understand what I'm saying on this...) regarding non-Imperial Navy navies, the one rule is that subsector naval units must obey certain restrictions placed upon them by the Imperial Government. One such rule is that during a time of crisis, defined generally as a war, Subsector Naval units are to be treated as a Naval Reserve for the Imperial Fleet.

The interesting bit as noted is that this doesn't happen on a regular basis. In addition, it isn't a well publicized fact even though someone with an ounce of historical curiosity could probably discern that fact readily enough. Oddly enough, even Behind the Claw describes the Subsector fleet as being obsolete ships. Read page 10 bottom of the page -last paragraph.

 

[mike wightman]

It's a great shame that Duchy Navies were not discussed in GT Nobles.

Are there any references in that work to the armed forces maintained by the subsector Dukes?

 

[The Oz]

Hans is right that CT refers to "subsector navies" while MT refers to "subsector fleets," and that these two terms are not necessarily synonymous, but I think that the references we have are sufficiently vague that we could reasonably assume they are equivalent. Certainly it is common to use the term "fleet" as a reference to all of a government's naval power. Look at how often Honor Harrington (to use a non-TRAVELLER example) refers to the "Fleet" when she's talking about the Royal Manticoran Navy as a whole.

And again, it might be a peacetime/wartime thing. In peacetime the Colonial squadrons make up a relatively independent force concerned with operations inside their home area: they are the local subsector navy. In wartime they are often sent outside their home area and operate as a tactical unit: they are acting as an Imperial Navy reserve fleet.

Another point to ponder: when operating at home the Colonial squadrons undoubtedly get their support (food, fuel, bullets, mail, money, etc) from their homeworlds, through an administrative structure set up and paid for by the local subsector government (the dirtside part of the "subsector navy"). When mobilized the Colonial squadrons would probably get their beans and bullets from the Imperial Navy since they are acting as tactical units for that organization. Probably the only support they get from their homeworlds is replacements for crew casualties.

 

[BetterThanLife]

TA7 states:
Most subsectors also support, in addition to the frontlinefleet, a numbered reserve fleet. This reserve fleet is typically made up of older ships that are not modern enough for front line service but still fully functional. Naval reservists crew and man these ships, often taking part in exercises organized by the main fleets. Occasionally, large population worlds with plentiful resources will decide to raise their own squadrons. They are fully responsible for the running of these squadrons but they are assigned to the reserve fleets whenever needed. The ownership of a Jump-capable warships is a matter of prestige for many worlds, with numbers and type granting an indication of the world's wealth and importance.

Another system heard from. The funny thing is none of these names or actual quotes inherently contradicts the others. Though none of the official resources mentions Duchy Fleets, The Capital of each subsector, where the Duke is also likely to be the Marquis or Baron for that world, are generally economic powerhouses that have the resources to produce a Colonial Fleet to patrol the entire subsector, or Duchy. So it all works together.

Taking this case with the CT and MT material you have the Imperial Navy with a Numbered Fleet for each subsector. The Imperial Navy with a Numbered Reserve Fleet, of older ships, per subsector. YOu have Colonial Squadrons and Fleets, raised with local resources that are the responsibility of the local governments but can be integrated into the reserve fleets and can be Imperialized in times of need. (And that last bit means that while the Imperial Navy doesn't have to pay for or maintain the Colonial Fleets/Squadrons, they can control them by Imperializing any Squadrons if they feel the local Government is getting uppity. The Imperial Government maintains de facto control of Interstellar Combat vessels and can hint that they don't want Corporate Navies, disguised as Colonial Navies, and will enforce that by Imperializing any such Fleet or Squadron.

Just Cr.02 more from me.

 

[aramis]

Actually, several subsectors have multiple numbered fleets (max is, IIRC, 3, and several are 2), and would thus have two or more subsector fleets in the numbered reserve; they might still be the subsector/duchy's navy.

For example, one subsector with 2 numbered fleets assigned would have (ideally) 2 full strength numbered reserve fleets. THe Subsector Navy therefore is in two "Fleets", with, possibly, one or more others not part of the "Numbered Reserve". Additionally, there could be one or more planetary navies, which could, in theory be activated by either the subsector navy or the imperial navy.

As for duchy navies, each duchy is, with few exceptions, also the subsector. At least, in canonical published data that is so. Therefore, as the head of the subsector government, the Duck is also the titular head of the Subsector Navy; in a few cases, the duchy is 2 subsectors, and thus the DN is 2 SSN's...

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Actually, several subsectors have multiple numbered fleets (max is, IIRC, 3, and several are 2), and would thus have two or more subsector fleets in the numbered reserve; they might still be the subsector/duchy's navy.

These situations generally reflect particular Imperial strategic concerns.

I would expect one of two things to happen:
either 1) there is only one reserve fleet (the subsector navy),
or 2) the Imperium provides an enhanced level of support for the reserve fleets in the subsector. This might even involve the creation of a reserve fleet that isn't associated with the subsector navy, but is, instead, more like a second-line, relatively poorly equipped version of a regular fleet. And it might not be all that poorly equipped...

Personally, I would expect the first option to usually be the case. The correspondence between regular and reserve fleets is unlikely to be perfect. The statements we have tend, as always, to give an impression of perfect bureaucratic regularity, which is highly unlikely to actually exist.

 

[mike wightman]

At the start of the Fifth Frontier War the Imperium only has four fleets in the top half of the Spinward Marches.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Actually, several subsectors have multiple numbered fleets (max is, IIRC, 3, and several are 2), and would thus have two or more subsector fleets in the numbered reserve; they might still be the subsector/duchy's navy.

For example, one subsector with 2 numbered fleets assigned would have (ideally) 2 full strength numbered reserve fleets. THe Subsector Navy therefore is in two "Fleets", with, possibly, one or more others not part of the "Numbered Reserve". Additionally, there could be one or more planetary navies, which could, in theory be activated by either the subsector navy or the imperial navy.

As for duchy navies, each duchy is, with few exceptions, also the subsector. At least, in canonical published data that is so. Therefore, as the head of the subsector government, the Duck is also the titular head of the Subsector Navy; in a few cases, the duchy is 2 subsectors, and thus the DN is 2 SSN's...

The only listing of numbered fleets that I have seen in a canon source had virtually all SubSectors with one Numbered Fleet. (On that map there were a grand total of 8 subsectors with 2 numbered fleets.) The only Subsectors with two Numbered Fleets were in Corridor Sector. (In which the top 8 Subsectors had 2 fleets each.) I have yet to see a source with any subsector having more than two numbered fleets.

Any chains of command I have seen for the Imperial Navy has the Dukes outside the Chain of Command. The only input they have is as the Emperor's local representative.

Where did this information come from? I am looking at the Rebellion Source Book for the quoted exceptions and Supp-9, TA7, FSOTSI, and the Rebellion Sourcebook for my information, which all seem to agree on the 1 Numbered Fleet per Subsector (Active) 1 Numbered Reserve Fleet Per Subsector.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I have yet to find it. Does any canon source, in any version of Traveller use the Term Duchy Fleet, or Ducal Fleet? The Term Huscales is used, and may or may not include a naval contingent, but where is the Ducal or Duchy Fleets in a canon source?

 

[mike wightman]

They don't exist AFAIK. They may have been mentioned in an onlineJTAS article, but I haven't read the entire archive so I don't know.

Reasoning though all of the discussions so far I have reached these conclusions.

The "fleet" as a naval unit only exists as an Imperial Navy term for the basic maneuvering element.

There are no subsector fleets or navies within the Imperium of the OTU. There are jump capable Planetary Navy squadrons capable of roaming a subsector - the Colonial squadrons that make up the Imperial Reserve fleet (or part of it ).
It is these ships that could be organized as a Duchy Navy.

Hans has used the term in the past, and I like it too. I hope there is evidence for it somewhere, but if not it'll become an IMTU addition until it appears in official canon sometime (if ever )