Thinking about Personal Combat for T5

[Original_Carl]

No combat this weekend, I'm sorry to report. We got all caught up in transhumanism again with one of the characters personality backup uploaded to a research console while we're trying to grow him a replacement body (we had a grey goo accident a few sessions back). The ship's counselor is working with him to restore a few points of Sanity before he's transferred back to meatspace.

Maybe we can have some shooting and punching next time. I'll certainly try.

I did go over an outline of the changes we've been discussing in this thread and everyone was positive. We did figure that we'd have to do at least to "penetration" or damage assessment phases. One would take place after the Immediate Action (since hits from that phase would impact results of the next phase) and then again after the combat round was concluded. They all liked the idea of a blind-bid for combat mode stating that would increase tension and provide a sense of chaos that we all felt made the combat seem more immersive.

-Carl

 

[Ulsyus]

This is terrific, Rob. I really like what you're proposing and I'd like to try out a modified version of it this Saturday.

I propose a simpler modes list to give characters a bit more flexibility within the modes. This also allows for a sort of bidding mechanic which you can do every round, allowing characters to change modes from round to round. I'll explain this after.

1. Attack Mode
   • Character may choose to fire burst/auto/continuous
   • Character may use aimed shots and hit locations
   • Character may choose to focus on Knockdown
2. Defense Mode
   • Character may use cover, evasion and target size mods
   • Character may use their own task rolls for Active Defense
3. Tactical Mode
   • Character uses its tactical pool
   • Character may attempt non-combat actions
4. Heavy Weapons, Demolitions & Vehicles
   • Character may use heavy weapons
   • Character may use weapons with Effects other than Pen/Bullet
   • Character may use explosives
   • Character may enter, exit or operate a vehicle

Hand each player four different colored stones at the start of the game. They will use these to declare their mode after the leadership roll is made.

All characters may do single fire, snap fire, and Immediate Action First Aid before the leadership roll.

If the leadership roll is successful, the players may discuss and coordinate their decisions. If not, each player secretly selects a stone corresponding to one of the four modes listed above and all players reveal simultaneously, signaling the start of the combat round.

Initiative is determined by the order in which they acted on the opening round of combat. When the last player acts on the round, the referee declares the Situation and the whole thing repeats in the new round.

1. Situation
2. Immediate Action
3. Leadership Roll
4. Mode Declaration
5. Combat Resolution in order of Immediate Action

I think this is going to be fun. I'll make a report to the thread if I manage to sneak a combat in on my group.

-Carl

That looks like a great set of options Carl. In a recent RP with another guy we:

Moved towards the structure where a shooter was still active
Used comms to let the backup know where we were and what we were about to do
Moved from point of cover to point of cover as quickly as possible
Took a shot at the shooter as he came into sight before he entered the structure (I winged him...)
Had to talk with an NPC who exited the structure wounded and asking for help
Worked our way through door and entry drills (defence mode?) going into the structure
Engaged and neutralised the shooter when we'd worked our way through a few rooms to where he was

So each action could discreetly fit within your list of options. The flow of events was pretty rapid, and the instructors were putting out a fair bit of noise at the time, urging us along. Now if that's the way it played out in the tac village at work and it seems like it'd fit your mode options and they can be changed readily as the situation changes, then this could work nicely

 

[robject]

Ok, let's go with Carl's Model and see where it takes us.

I propose a simpler modes list to give characters a bit more flexibility within the modes. This also allows for a sort of bidding mechanic which you can do every round, allowing characters to change modes from round to round. ...

1. Attack Mode (burst, aimed, knockdown)
2. Defense Mode (cover, evasion, TSM, active defenses)
3. Tactics Mode (tactical pool, noncombat actions)
4. Heavy Weapons, Demolitions & Vehicles (+special effects)

Hand each player four different colored stones...

...make that T5 dice. Red for attack, Yellow for defense, White for tactics, and Black for demolitions and vehicles...

...at the start of the game. They will use these to declare their mode after the leadership roll is made.

Let's talk about the Leadership roll. Why move it into the combat round? I need to understand why you want to do this. Keeping it out does two things:

(1) I feel that magnifying the value of the Leader is appropriate and useful and effective for Traveller. Thus, it puts an appropriate value on Leader skill, by making the task roll costly (= risky). By rolling every combat round, it devalues the Leader task. The reason I call it 'appropriate' is because this gives the skill a more 'key' role, and by that, I mean it's riskier. Risk implies value. I feel that low-Leader groups should be at a severe disadvantage, but also that occasionally even the best-led group hits misfortune. This preserves that.

(2) It shortens the combat round considerably. Not only does one step move out, Immediate Action becomes actions which are available and common to all modes. Thus we have
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1. Situation
2. Mode Declaration
3. Combat Resolution in order of Action

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[Original_Carl]

Good call on the Traveller Dice. I'm going to have to buy more sets now. Hooray!

Why move the leadership roll to the combat round?

I was doing this to add chaos to the Immediate Action. I felt there would be little-to-no coordination possible during an Immediate Action so no Leadership check there.

Once combat erupts, everyone starts running and/or shooting. The leader steps up and attempts to impart some order to the proceedings. Then, the individuals in the group take commands or they act independently if the leader fails the roll. In order to simulate difficulty in giving coherent orders that are then followed while under fire, I proposed re-rolling leadership every round. To balance this I figured the roll would be Difficult (3 dice). Then, participants choose modes and act on the order determined by their Immediate Actions. When all mode actions are resolved, the next round starts and you do it all over again.

Upon re-reading your posts, I think I see where you're heading. You're suggesting a single leadership roll at the start of combat. Then the Leader would get to lead for the duration, meaning there would be no blind declaration of modes after the roll is successful. That would indeed make Leadership a powerful skill and I'd be tempted to make this roll Formidable (4 dice) or maybe Difficult plus Flux to introduce some luck to balance that out.

I also see that you're combining the Immediate Action with the mode actions. I like this, as it does streamline things, but I also liked the idea of a mini combat round to determine initiative followed by a more thoughtful phase of purposeful action.

Round 1
1. Situation
2. Leadership Roll
3. Mode Declaration
4. Action

Round 1+ N
1. Situation
2. Mode Declaration
3. Action

Something that I like very much and that is unique to Traveller is how initiative is determined. In most other RPGs it's a roll, possibly modified by some special ability or high ability score. In Traveller, it goes to which ever player acts first. There are benefits to waiting to act (you don't get stuck with a +1 mod to be hit), but you might get shot, stabbed or punched while you're waiting. I thought this was so elegant and easy to understand that I wanted to accentuate it by postponing the leadership roll.

That's pretty long-winded, but there you go.

-Carl

 

[robject]

Thank you Carl, for explaining your intent, and THANK YOU for understanding my intent as well. I think if we can get a little of both then we've got something with a synergy. And something worth proposing to TPTB.


Leadership is Hard!

Indeed, I haven't thought about the difficulty level for a Single Leadership Roll. This Is Hard! should definitely play a part. Unorganized combat sort of models the "typical player response" which is every man to himself, but rewarding a coordinated style potentially "solves" that problem.

Take G.I. Joe, a natural with Leader-7 and Int-10. His asset is almost sure at 3D difficulty, but a bit unsure at 4D.

Now take Unsuspecting Heroic Player Group N, likely to have Leader-2 and Int-9. A sure enough thing at 2D, but 3D jumps to a 4D task and there's a less than 50% chance.

Now take Major Zeler, an experienced fellow with Leader-4 and Int-9. Asset is 13... so a 3D task is more often than not going to work. Leader-4 is proven, equivalent to Leader-2 in CT, MT, or MgT.

I'd make it a base 3D task, but with a bump up to 4D under extra adversity.



There are other ways to do it

What about players who already know how to fight in an organized way, and may be inherently organized without requiring an initial powwow? Why punish everyone else for not knowing how to fight in squads?

And is this a big problem, or just a minor one? It may not be a big deal. Some groups are prepared; this might take away from the interest in combat... or else it allows them to focus on some other aspect of combat, instead (which is probably going to be the case). So I'm not TOO worried about that situation.

But, there are other ways to use Leader. For example, the roll could enable modes. As soon as a successful Leader roll is made, modes are unlocked. (Or perhaps just one mode, with subsequent ones available after further successful rolls, but that's fiddly, and maybe better as a house rule)

 

[pendragonman]

Not to point out the obvious, but then we need to think of the "Tactics" skills...


Edit: Just spitballing here, but maybe the Leadership throw is in the pre-battle step and Tactics throw is any turn you want to change modes?

 

[robject]

I am thinking the Tactics Pool, and the combat mode that allows its use, is the place for Tactics. Up for voting, though.


Just to throw in another monkey wrench, realize that Space Combat inherits from Personal Combat. So while we're mulling over various ways to do Personal Combat in a Traveller5 way, think about the implications for Space Combat as well:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Round 1
1. Situation
2. Fleet Admiral's Roll
3. Mode Declaration
4. Action

Round 1+ N
1. Situation
2. Mode Declaration
3. Action

Modes:[/FONT]
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1. Attack Mode (mass fire, aimed fire?)
2. Defense Mode (evasion, TSM, active defenses!)
3. Tactics Mode (fleet tactics pool, noncombat actions)
4. Ortillery & Vehicles (planetary assault, launch/recover craft, ??)

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[pendragonman]

I am thinking the Tactics Pool, and the combat mode that allows its use, is the place for Tactics. Up for voting, though.

Thinking I missed something, I scanned the entire thread to this point. While there is a mention of a tactical pool, it appears to be undefined.

Or am I just oblivious?

What does the tactical pool allow, and how does it make having the relavent type of tactics useful?

 

[aramis]

Thinking I missed something, I scanned the entire thread to this point. While there is a mention of a tactical pool, it appears to be undefined.

Or am I just oblivious?

What does the tactical pool allow, and how does it make having the relavent type of tactics useful?

I don't know for certain about T5, but I know that in MT, you summed all the levels of tactics on a side, and that was a pool of "free one use DM's" to be drawn upon during that encounter. Fleet tactics worked the same for ships.

 

[robject]

I don't know for certain about T5, but I know that in MT, you summed all the levels of tactics on a side, and that was a pool of "free one use DM's" to be drawn upon during that encounter. Fleet tactics worked the same for ships.

Those are them.

 

[ovka]

Maybe I'm a bit dense, but this seems overly complicated. I understand that reality says that people have to think on their feet, and everyone attacks at the same time, but the closer you get to reality, the more complicated the game gets.

How about this.

Characters roll to place themselves into initiative order (2D + DEX/3 + Tactics + Leader's Skill Level). Personally I don't like the idea that the first player to speak has their character go first.

Each combat round characters get a move action and a standard action, or can combine the two into a full-round action. Have list of things you can in each.

Then there are special actions. Do you want to wait and see what someone else does? Voluntarily slide down the initiative order and go after that person. Do you want to shoot the first person that comes through the door? Voluntarily slide down the initiative order and go before that person as they enter the door (as an interrupt to their turn).

What happens when the person you want to shoot is killed by someone else? Bonus! You get to shoot someone else on your turn. (Don't feel bad, the NPC's get to do that too. :devil

I know that isn't reality, but from an ease of use standpoint, it isn't bad. Feel free to whack me and tell me to shut up. o:

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[pendragonman]

I don't know for certain about T5, but I know that in MT, you summed all the levels of tactics on a side, and that was a pool of "free one use DM's" to be drawn upon during that encounter. Fleet tactics worked the same for ships.

Never used MT, skipped it. CT, TNE, T5.

So, the idea is the total of the tactics skill levels are "apply as you like" one time per combat bonuses? From what I found in 5.09 p180, this pool also includes a C5 stat, so we are talking a pretty massive amount of bonus per round.

If a character doesn't have tactics, do they get the pool?

 

[robject]

If a character doesn't have tactics, do they get the [C5] pool?

It depends on what the purpose is. If the combat system needs a pool of DMs, then yes - but then we get to say "perhaps there is a simplification to the combat tasks so that DM pools aren't generally needed."

If the purpose is to reward Tactics skill, then no.

If the purpose is to reward Tactics skill and Education, then yes.

 

[robject]

Maybe I'm a bit dense, but this seems overly complicated.

Hi Baron!

Yes. Combat is going to be complex. Any suggestions on how to organize the complexity in a different way are welcome.

1. Characters roll to place themselves into initiative order.

Rolling for initiative is definitely a Solved Problem. It is useful if it is leveraged by the rest of the system -- i.e. the system hangs some of its complexity on the initiative system, as you have noted below.

2. Characters get a move action and a standard action, or can combine the two into a full-round action. Have list of things you can in each.

Then there are [a set of] special actions [which typically costs on initiative] [and sometimes causes interrupt actions].

Initiative is being used as a medium of exchange in order to do more complex actions. It's a tertium quid.

You've also added interrupts into the system, but in a nice way: you've made them exceptional, applying to non-typical tasks, which helps bury the complexity a bit.

What happens when the person you want to shoot is killed by someone else? Bonus! You get to shoot someone else on your turn.

A natural and reasonable leveraging of initiative.


ANALYSIS

Initiative systems have a lot going for them: everybody knows about them, and you can use initiative as a kind of currency.

There is a painful initial setup (rolling those dice with DMs and then everybody comparing numbers and ordering themselves), and you have to resolve ties. After that, however, things clip along.

So the problem that Initiative solves is Order.

Your second piece, Action Types, still does the same general thing our Modes do: splits actions into classes. You have the additional benefit (that seems vaguely related to Mongoose Traveller) of allowing two scoped actions which can be combined into one Big Action. And from there you have Even Bigger Actions which require spending Initiative.

So your action system is no less complex. Initiative helps you create a scale of difficulty for actions.

Now, Traveller5 already has a difficulty scale for actions - namely, Task Difficulty. So let's think about how it would look if your combat system itself didn't have to differentiate between difficulty, because the Task System already provided for that.

In other words, the unit of combat is the Task, and tasks are rated by difficulty. If you fail in a task, you have indeed lost initiative -- for the entire turn.

 

[aramis]

Never used MT, skipped it. CT, TNE, T5.

So, the idea is the total of the tactics skill levels are "apply as you like" one time per combat bonuses? From what I found in 5.09 p180, this pool also includes a C5 stat, so we are talking a pretty massive amount of bonus per round.

If a character doesn't have tactics, do they get the pool?

Not per round - per engagement.

 

[pendragonman]

It depends on what the purpose is. If the combat system needs a pool of DMs, then yes - but then we get to say "perhaps there is a simplification to the combat tasks so that DM pools aren't generally needed."

If the purpose is to reward Tactics skill, then no.

If the purpose is to reward Tactics skill and Education skill, then yes.

Then there needs to be examples that show these various situations because the BBB v 5.09 does not say in black and white you get this pool only if you have tactics.

I am sure you are aware of the vast array of players who would take that omission and drive the Titanic thru it.

The current example of:

"Army Sergeant Hal O’Rear 789987 Tactics-4 finds himself and his team in a firefight. He creates his Tactics Mod for the battle: 8 +4 +Flux. He rolls +2 (= 12 +2 = +14). He has a Tactics Mod= 14 for the duration of the battle."

Says that Hal has a Mod of 14 for the duration. Fine. Does not say/show that this is piecemealed out over all of the turns of the combat, and in fact had not Aramis said something I was interpreting it as a total mod of 14 that I can spend throughout the team each turn , which is ridiculously powerful.

 

[SanDragon]

If my brain hasn't gone to mush, I believe MT also said you can't take a bonus of more than the highest skill level on that side in tactics as a bonus at any one time.

 

[robject]

If my brain hasn't gone to mush, I believe MT also said you can't take a bonus of more than the highest skill level on that side in tactics as a bonus at any one time.

QUITE reasonable. That prevents piling everything into one supreme killshot.

 

[robject]

Then there needs to be examples that show these various situations because the BBB v 5.09 does not say in black and white you get this pool only if you have tactics.

It's quite clear, on p.180, but also in the skills list, under Tactics (p.141). "Characters with Tactics".

And apparently it's not a pool; it's a DM.

This just means it's one of the items that probably ought to be removed from the tasks chapter -- since the task text is OLDER and DIFFERS enough to be incorrect.

The Tactics Mod. Characters with Tactics can create a Tactics Mod used every Combat Round for the duration of a battle; it is created anew for every battle. The Tactics Mod equals the C5 plus Tactics plus Flux. It is possible for the Tactics Mod to be negative, in which case it is useless for the battle.

The Tactics Mod Grant. A character can grant his Tactics Mod to any combatant under his direct control (and within communication). In one Combat Round, he can grant it to a gunner; in another to a Sniper; in another to someone in hand-to-manipulator combat.

A combatant can only be granted one Tactics Mod per combat round. The Tactics Mod is a direct positive Mod in combat and increases the chance of success.

This mod can significantly increase the chance of success. In fact, it appears to be a defining rule of personal combat: a rule that puts a high value on Tactics + Education. Consider Tactics-5, Education-10, as a DM+15 granted to any one player each combat round. That could guarantee a successful task per round.

Even if a leader (looks like an informal "leader" is implied) lacks combat skill, if he has Tactics, he can indirectly influence the outcome of combat.


Tactics instead of Leader

In fact, it looks like the Tactics Mod is similar in intent to my Leader roll. SO let's shift everything to Tactics Mod and see what we've got.

 

[robject]

So this time, I'll use the T5.09 draft to base our adjusted combat thoughts. "The gentleman works on the trunk" and all that. :rofl:

Round 1
1. Situation
2. Tactics Mod rolled by Leader
3. Mode Declaration
4. Action

Round 1+ N
1. Situation
2. Mode Declaration
3. Action

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[/FONT]In other words, we're trying things two ways different from the current draft:

1. The Tactics Mod is being rolled inside Round 1.
2. DMs are constrained to a character by a Mode selection, done each round.
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[/FONT]I note that the general ease of using a Tactics Mod has destroyed Mode #3, and this may lead to reorganization -- though probably not destruction, since the point of Modes is to reduce the number of DMs available in any one combat round.

This may, however, create more complexity than before. Won't know until we try it out.
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[/FONT]Modes
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1. Attack Mode [Red] (burst, aimed, knockdown)
2. Cover Mode [Yellow] (cover, evasion, TSM)
3. [FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Heavy Weapons, [Black] Demolitions & Vehicles (+special effects)[/FONT][/FONT]
4. Defense Mode [White] (e.g. personal White Globes)

Note: Selection of Mode could also determine initiative order: Red, Yellow, Black, White.

[/FONT][/FONT]Initiative[FONT=arial,helvetica]

[/FONT]Ovka is pondering the strange initiative system of T5, and proposing a calculated initiative (for example). There are other ways to do it.
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