Thinking about Personal Combat for T5

[David Johansen]

So, there's a problem with Burden as a mod to attack rolls. The issue being that burden isn't uniform to mass but rather reflects the Bulk of the item relative to other items of its type. You can be lugging a big, heavy weapon around but if it has no Burden modifier you don't get penalized.

I'd have to run around on Gun Maker some to come up with specific examples. One other issue is that it might make the bonus to hit from a low burden odd. Oh and Burden goes up not down so ideally it needs to be added to the dice roll.

I like the idea, I'm just not sure it meshes with the current mechanic and honestly, I'm not in love with the implementation of Burden across the board.

 

[pendragonman]

Normally the BFG that has no burden modifier is supposed to be part of Battle Dress, or part of a Walker, or a vehicle weapon, etc...

Using Robs gunmaker script we have the following example:

Adv Heavy Assault Autocannon Turret-13, 240 kg, R=5, B=-3, Bang-9 Blast-2 , Cr 180,000

Code : AHAaCT-13
Name : Adv Heavy Assault Autocannon Turret-13
Range : 5
Damage: (11D) Bang-9 Blast-2

Notice it says turret? This is a turret mounted heavy assault autocannon, TL 13


When fired from a turret, burden is -3. From the arms of some unassisted character? Not so much.

 

[David Johansen]

Yes but the Burden -3 only comes from the "Heavy" modifier. My point is that Burden functions poorly in all cases because it doesn't scale properly. Take burden -3 on a heavy pistol verses burden -3 on a heavy rifle it cuts the apparent mass to less than nothing on the pistol while reducing the rifle to around 1 kg. It needs to be a proportional and relative modifier. By which I mean that it needs to scale in relation to the size of the item. Though it's mainly a problem with Rob's modifier to hit and encumbrance.

 

[pendragonman]

That really sounds like a personal preference. From what I see, it scales fine from one pistol to the next pistol and one rifle to the next rifle. Each weapon type scales fine against other weapons of that type. Wanting the burden to scale at the same rate across weapon platforms is not very realistic.

Take a gander at today's weaponry. Does a Desert Eagle have the same burden as a Barrett M90? Surely you agree that they are both heavy versions of their weapon type. So do they fulfill your need for similar burden?

Someone using a pistol has a much harder time bracing for firing a heavy one than someone who has a nice shoulder stock to help brace the heavy rifle.

Further, unless you are actively pursuing a max encumbrance penalty by total mass carried I refer you to the personal grav floater. For someone in a firefight, they are not going to carry their field science lab into combat, they will put it down (or onto the floater). Someone using a rifle in a firefight who only has to worry about body armor bulk and weapons isn't going to worry about 1 extra kg for their rifle, unless they are of low low strength. At that point I question their choice of weapon over the modifier caused by the weapon.

 

[robject]

Adding it to the attack task does create an interesting effect.

"Burden" is for hand-held weapons - rifles and pistols and such. It modifies the "felt" mass of an object. So a very light object can yet feel very heavy if it has a poor burden rating.

Once we get into heavier weapons, Burden has less of a role to play. What's a few kilograms when you're operating 3 ton artillery?

If it were in the Attack task, suddenly Burden can be important to 3-ton artillery.

 

[kilemall]

THE COMBAT PROCESS

1. Roll to Hit. This is T5.09 Step 1, except for Melee Attack:

Melee Attack: 2D < Characteristic + Skill ( - Burden )
- 3D if the opponent has a longer reach.
- If the weapon's Burden is not zero, use it as a negative DM.
- If Unarmed, damage is equal to the Dice Rating for STR.

Lowest success wins.


THE ATTACK TASK

A summary is added at the top of this section:

Ranged Attack: Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill ( - Burden )
- Attack not possible if Size < Range.
- If the weapon's Burden is not zero, use it as a negative DM.
- Minimum task 1D.Melee Attack: 2D < Characteristic + Skill ( - Burden ) - Defender's Characteristic - Defender's Skill
- 3D if the opponent has a longer reach.
- If the weapon's Burden is not zero, use it as a negative DM.
- If Unarmed, damage is equal to the Dice Rating for STR.

Ram/Impact Attack: 2D < Defender Dexterity - Impact Speed

Difficulty per T5.09.
The Target Number per T5.09.
Unskilled or Low Skill per T5.09.

Ranged Attack Modes drastically changed from T5.09 to support:

Burst Fire. Weapons capable of Burst Fire operate this way by default, making two attacks against the target. Single-fire mode may be specified instead. Types which fall into this category include Machine, Accelerator, Assault, Battle, Combat, and Gauss Guns.

Full Auto makes three attacks against the target.

Shotguns and Support Weapons also attack up to two adjacent targets. Support Weapons also typically use Burst Fire (see above).

Ok, so query- is the stat + skill roll less then to hit the standard skill system in T5? I recreated the wheel in my IMTU?

If so, I honestly had not read the system at all, just came to that conclusion that natural talent and ability had been overwhelmed by skills in previous versions.

If this is your cribbed version, may I offer a few thoughts?

I am translating 'burden' here as how unwieldy the weapon is to use. That can mean weight, but in more cases it will mean bulk or unbalanced design or bad ergonomics- a combination of things.

Rather then try and quantify a whole host of elements that would make a weapon more difficult to succeed with and add a ton of pain, why not make a design value built into the weaponmaker system?

It could incorporate a whole set of design differences, including all that experimental-ultimate boilerplate and covering lightness, targeting systems, size, bulk, etc. etc. without sucking all the crew-served big weapons into a kg-based sinkhole of rule pain.

I'm not sure what to call that value- I'm thinking one should stay away from making it a to-hit modifier and instead make it a time/initiative variable, as the more difficult weapons take more time to line up/swing/aim/use. Perhaps Speed in that iteration.

IF you do go that direction, the weaponmaker system should start with a base speed for X form factor then modify by design decisions and advances, so a pistol form factor starts at a faster Speed then a carbine which is faster then a rifle form factor, and powered crew turrets are faster then unpowered crew turrets (but may be modified by TL and size of weapon).

So the pistol packing guy will likely get a first shot off, unless he got an experimentally big pistol with an antitank round up against a TL13 slugthrowing rifle with extra speed bought into the design.

Secondly, I would stay away from a host of roll mods and tie tasks down to making a shift of difficulty levels, so there is one number up or down to apply to the task, including shooting. That way, you only have one variable number to consider, just add up your up and down shift variables to arrive at one mod value.

If one just MUST have opposing/save rolls, then its a task the dodger has to roll to shift the to hit task difficulty up.

 

[robject]

Ok, so query- is the stat + skill roll less then to hit the standard skill system in T5? I recreated the wheel in my IMTU?

Rather then try and quantify a whole host of elements that would make a weapon more difficult to succeed with and add a ton of pain, why not make a design value built into the weaponmaker system?

Secondly, I would stay away from a host of roll mods and tie tasks down to making a shift of difficulty levels, so there is one number up or down to apply to the task, including shooting. That way, you only have one variable number to consider, just add up your up and down shift variables to arrive at one mod value.

Yes, you've re-created the wheel. Or you channeled Marc Miller. Either one.

Yes, we call that "Burden" or "Bulk", an anti-ergonomic factor, and yes, it is provided from GunMaker.

And yes, my goal is to get rid of most of T5.09's DMs (Speed, Size, Cover, for example) and instead shift difficulty. Burden is the lone exception.

 

[kilemall]

Yes, you've re-created the wheel. Or you channeled Marc Miller. Either one.

Yes, we call that "Burden" or "Bulk", an anti-ergonomic factor, and yes, it is provided from GunMaker.

And yes, my goal is to get rid of most of T5.09's DMs (Speed, Size, Cover, for example) and instead shift difficulty. Burden is the lone exception.

Well, I don't know whether to feel gratified and vindicated, annoyed at wasted time working through all that to arrive at same conclusions already available, or condolences for the rest of you ending up thinking like I think.

 

[kilemall]

While I am busy channeling whatever, might as well mention that I settled on +/- 3 as the main difficulty modifier for task rolls.

Easy +6
Simple +3
Routine 0
Challenging -3
Difficult -6
Impossible -9

Given the higher numbers C + S generates, seemed to hit a sweet spot, whereas doing it by 2s seemed to be ineffective and 4s not granular enough. YMMV, get into more modifiers and 2 might be better.

 

[robject]

Well, I don't know whether to feel gratified and vindicated, annoyed at wasted time working through all that to arrive at same conclusions already available, or condolences for the rest of you ending up thinking like I think.

Validated, how about. Or, a common insanity. Your pick.

 

[Ulsyus]

Someone using a pistol has a much harder time bracing for firing a heavy one than someone who has a nice shoulder stock to help brace the heavy rifle.

That would depend on the granularity of your system and how you wanted to represent skill.

For instance: Firers skills with a weapon system would have a better understanding of recoil (once familiarised with the weapon system), stance, support, and firing principles. So an average skilled firer gets the normal burden penalty. A skilled firer could get a reduced penalty based on taking a stance better able to manage recoil, control the movement of the weapon post-firing, or move to a point of support against which they could brace the weapon to better manage the burden.

That of course works without powered assist, but at that point we head back towards the vehicle-mounted issue.

 

[robject]

Or, perhaps, use Ease of Use as the DM. Better?

 

[robject]

Here are the suggestions I've sent in to errata. I submitted them in three batches, from the most likely to be used, to the least.

1: Rob's Organizational Suggestions for Personal Combat

Page 178, Personal Combat, Rob's Suggestions 1-a. Insert a section in front of THE COMBAT PROCESS, called SETUP. Move "Tactics" (p180) and "WHO GOES FIRST?" (p182) into this section.

Page 178, Personal Combat, Rob's Suggestions 1-b. Add a new phase at the beginning of THE COMBAT PROCESS: "Declaration Phase" or "Decision Phase". This phase explains the mutually-exclusive options for a character in the round: Total Concealment, Cover Me! / Suppressing Fire, and Attack!

Page 178, Personal Combat, Rob's Suggestions 1-c. Add to the Declaration Phase of THE COMBAT PROCESS the option "Operate a Vehicle".

Page 179, Personal Combat, Rob's Suggestions 1-d. Move "HITS AGAINST CHARACTERS" (p181) into the "Inflict Damage" section.

Page 179, Personal Combat, Rob's Suggestions 1-e. Add Attack Task synopses (like p185) into ATTACK! IS A TASK, in between the title and the first paragraph. I.E. show me what the tasks look like before explaining them.

Page 179, Personal Combat, Rob's Suggestions 1-f. Just after "Range Attack Modes", create a section called ATTACK TASK CONSIDERATIONS to contain Speed Mods, Target Size, Crouching/Prone, Evasion, Cover and Concealment, and Cover Me! / Suppressing Fire.

Page 180, Personal Combat, Rob's Suggestions 1-g. Move "Technological Means" INTO the Cover and Concealment paragraphs, since they are part of that material.

Page 180, Personal Combat, Rob's Suggestions 1-h. Create a new section called "SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS", after ATTACK TASK CONSIDERATIONS. Move these items into it: designator fire, explosions, falling, hits against objects, knockdown, and power settings.

Page 180, Personal Combat, Rob's Suggestions 1-j. Add to SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS: "Drawing a weapon increases the difficulty of the attack task by +1D."
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[robject]

2: Rob's The Combat Process Suggestions for Personal Combat

Page 178, Rob's Suggestions 2-a, Personal Combat, THE COMBAT PROCESS, Decision Phase. Rename the Decision Phase options to: Move and Attack, Operate a Vehicle, Evade/Take Cover, and Cover Me! / Suppressing Fire.

Page 178, Rob's Suggestions 2-b, Personal Combat, THE COMBAT PROCESS, Roll for Hit Location phase. Remove this from THE COMBAT PROCESS: move the entire step to an entry under SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS, and renumber the next phases in the process accordingly.

Page 178, Rob's Suggestions 2-c, Personal Combat, THE COMBAT PROCESS, Roll for Damage and Penetration, Hits Versus Armor. Change first sentence to: If the Hits applied against Armor exceed Ar=, then the Armor’s protective ability is reduced by 10% (based on its original value) for the remainder of the combat situation. For example, Ar 42 armor loses 4 points after each penetrating hit.

Page 179, Rob's Suggestions 2-d, Personal Combat, ATTACK! IS A TASK, Ranged Attack Modes, Aimed, second sentence. Revert to T5.00: The Attacker attacks in the next Combat Round at -1D Difficulty.

Page 179, Rob's Suggestions 2-e, Personal Combat, ATTACK! IS A TASK, Ranged Attack Modes, Standard, second sentence. Delete second sentence.

Page 179, Rob's Suggestions 2-f, Personal Combat, ATTACK! IS A TASK, Ranged Attack Modes, Snapshot, third sentence. Revert to T5.00: The attack is resolved at +1D difficulty, before the Target may attack or respond. On a success, the target may not act in this round.

Page 179, Rob's Suggestions 2-g, Personal Combat, ATTACK! IS A TASK, Ranged Attack Modes. Add a new paragraph or note: Shotguns and Support Weapons also attack up to two adjacent targets.

Page 184, Rob's Suggestions 2-h, Personal Combat, TYPICAL WEAPON MODE SETTINGS, P1-P2-P3. Revert to T5.00: The weapon has three power level settings. The standard is P1 and corresponds to standard or ordinary damage in each of the possible damage types for the weapon. Power Level P2 corresponds to Double Damage (the user must Check Quality to avoid weapon malfunction). Power Level P3 corresponds to Triple Damage (the user must Check Quality twice to avoid weapon malfunction).

 

[robject]

3: Rob's Attack Task Suggestions for Personal Combat

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Page 179, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Rob's Suggestions 3-a, Personal Combat,[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] ATTACK! IS A TASK[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]. Use Weapon Ease of Use (or Burden if EoU is not available) as a DM in the attack task. This goes against my dislike for DMs, but it seems that the weapon itself may help or hinder attack tasks.
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Page 179, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Rob's Suggestions 3-b, Personal Combat,[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] ATTACK! IS A TASK[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica], ATTACK TASK CONSIDERATIONS. Reduce the Target Size mod to +1D attack difficulty if target is half-human size or less, -1D if target is vehicle-sized; if Range > Size, you can't attack it. This speeds up play. Really.

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Page 179, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Rob's Suggestions 3-c, Personal Combat,[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] ATTACK! IS A TASK[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica], ATTACK TASK CONSIDERATIONS. Change Crouching/Prone mod to +1D attack difficulty. This speeds up play.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Page 179, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Rob's Suggestions 3-d, Personal Combat,[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] ATTACK! IS A TASK[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica], ATTACK TASK CONSIDERATIONS.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]Add "Evade" as a possible action. Character may not attack. Character is +2D more difficult to hit.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Page 179, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Rob's Suggestions 3-e, Personal Combat,[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] ATTACK! IS A TASK[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica], ATTACK TASK CONSIDERATIONS. Change "Take Cover" to add +2D difficulty to be hit, and +1D difficulty to attacks made by character under cover. I know this is a big loss of granularity, but I think it really does speed up the game in quantizing mods into dice added and subtracted.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Page 179, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Rob's Suggestions 3-f, Personal Combat,[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] ATTACK! IS A TASK[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica], ATTACK TASK CONSIDERATIONS.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] Update "Concealment" to require a successful Stealth roll to remain concealed.
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[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Page 180, Rob's Suggestions 3-g, Personal Combat, SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS. Make the ammunition people happy with this: [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Ammunition Check. Reloading is done when evading or under cover. When Moving, make a Check Ammo (2D) task against the weapon's TL to verify that the weapon can fire; +1D when in burst mode, and +1D for pistols and exotic weapons. On failure, the weapon is jammed or empty, and the character cannot fire this round. Alternately, the round capacity of the weapon under use can be decided before combat. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]A Full Auto attack guarantees an empty clip. Note that some heavy weapons have limited rounds as well (such as single Launchers). [/FONT][/FONT]To reload, the character must [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Evade or Take Cover for a round, and cannot attack in that round.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[kilemall]

Just a check, one of the big effects putting in characteristics into the rolls during IMTU combat is that as a character takes hits, even small ones, they become less effective. Is this in T5?

 

[robject]

As far as I can tell, T5 pre-computes the fighting numbers and does not mention that they need to be re-computed when damage is taken. I consider this an ERRATA.

 

[pendragonman]

Not sure it is errata. Without constant recompute things move more quickly.


And more deadly...

 

[kilemall]

As far as I can tell, T5 pre-computes the fighting numbers and does not mention that they need to be re-computed when damage is taken. I consider this an ERRATA.

It's a real major difference, really makes things desperate as even a 2D hit can degrade you badly.

 

[robject]

It's a real major difference, really makes things desperate as even a 2D hit can degrade you badly.

I agree. But I *think* that the degradation in T5 is not more noticeable than that in, say, CT, if only because a couple rounds of damage really tends to knock people out of commission.

It's not that the degradation isn't real, but rather that it's typically short-lived, as in (the highly compressed example) "[Round two] Oh, I see you're down to half END. [Round three] Whups, now you're unconscious for five rounds. [Round five] Ah, combat is over. I see that your side won. Luckily for you."

Where it seems to be MORE effective is as a slow-acting sapping of characteristics through some other means, such as radiation damage or poison or psionic leeching or something.