Thinking about Personal Combat for T5

[kilemall]

<Shrug> I don't know that I would categorize player actions into 'modes', sounds awfully confining for very chaotic situations. Perhaps suitable for drone/robotic combat.

As for Tactics, I would recommend a different tack- each skill level allowing the user to recognize what the enemy is doing and their options, and therefore 'know' what the enemy is going to do next, along with his best options to counter/disrupt/wrest initiative.

In other words Tactics should be an ability to utilize time and command tactical assets more efficiently then the other guy, or at least not be roadkilled by the enemy's Tactics skill.

 

[pendragonman]

Actually, Rob, it was the exact text from page 180 that makes me think it refills round to round.

Characters with Tactics can create a Tactics Mod which can be used every Combat Round for the duration of the battle.

This sentence fragment is the source of my confusion.

It is created anew for every battle. The Tactics Mod Value equals the Character’s C5 plus Tactics plus Flux. It is calculated when a battle begins...

This says to me that since the flux is involved, the tactics mod is rolled at the beginning of combat.

...and remains the same throughout the course of the battle.

says to me that we don't change it. We don't reroll the flux. Got it.

Tactics Mod to any combatant under his direct control (and within communication). In one Combat Round, he can grant it to a gunner; in another to a sniper; in another to someone in hand-to-manipulator combat.
A combatant can only be granted one Tactics Mod per combat round. The Tactics Mod is a direct positive Mod in combat and increases the chance of success.

This paragraph implies to me that the entire mod is what is granted turn by turn. Which implies it "refills" turn by turn.

What it very clearly does not say, is that the mod is a total that is doled out, bit by bit, over every turn of the combat. Each bit deducting from the mod, until the mod "pool" is zero or combat ends.

I have previously put in the calculation example. I put forth, again, that clear examples of use are needed. Otherwise, we have to rely on intent?

Not everybody that plays Trav is familiar with MT. This small pool that reduces as parts are doled out needs to be spelled out.

 

[Original_Carl]

I'm inclined to use the Leadership roll to determine if players can openly declare modes, which would allow more coordination between players, thus simulating leadership in combat.

The Tactics pool ideas are interesting. I like the idea of a tactics pool that refreshes each round. This would allow a group with a skilled tactician and leader to have a significant advantage over a group without. However, I think you should have to declare Tactics as your mode to get that die mod pool.

At first, I thought C5 + Tactics + Flux was too much for a mod, even used as a pool, but when Rob stated that it would essentially guarantee someone on the other side got hit, it all clicked. Of course this would work! You've a skilled tactician (dedicated to Tactics mode) able to convey a huge mod to one character or spread it out among the group, the tactician included in the case of the Immediate Action. By that I mean, that someone could declare the Tactics mode and still take a shot, using their own pool, if they so chose.

I'm inclined to keep initiative a free-for-all. There are benefits and drawbacks to going first and I think it balances out. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread and all.

 

[Original_Carl]

Round 1
1. Situation
2. Tactics Mod rolled by Leader
3. Mode Declaration
4. Action

Round 1+ N
1. Situation
2. Mode Declaration
3. Action

In other words, we're trying things two ways different from the current draft:

1. The Tactics Mod is being rolled inside Round 1.
2. DMs are constrained to a character by a Mode selection, done each round.

This may, however, create more complexity than before. Won't know until we try it out.

1. Attack Mode [Red] (burst, aimed, knockdown)
2. Cover Mode [Yellow] (cover, evasion, TSM)
3. Heavy Weapons, [Black] Demolitions & Vehicles (+special effects)
4. Defense Mode [White] (e.g. personal White Globes)

Note: Selection of Mode could also determine initiative order: Red, Yellow, Black, White.

I really like the idea of mode selection determining initiative. That will streamline things nicely. It's a good use of color and the dice as token. I love a multitasking tool. However, it will make it hard on colorblind players.

Apologies in advance for the selective quoting, Rob.

Regarding the four modes, I propose the following modes:

1. Attack Mode [Red] (burst, aimed, knockdown)
2. Defense Mode [Yellow] (cover, evasion, TSM)
3. Heavy Weapons, [Black] Demolitions & Vehicles (+special effects)
4. Tactical Mode [White] (Tactics Mod, Complex Personal Device Operation e.g. personal White Globes)

This helps to make the tactics mod special and reduce complexity.

I propose a call for a Leadership roll every round. The consequences of failing the Leadership roll are that you don't get to coordinate mode selection, so you must choose in secret and declare simultaneously.

I have a game coming up this weekend. We may get into a fight yet. They're close enough to the Zhodani front that it's possible they run into trouble.

 

[whulorigan]

I propose a call for a Leadership roll every round. The consequences of failing the Leadership roll are that you don't get to coordinate mode selection, so you must choose in secret and declare simultaneously.

I would probably also make specific mention that if the leader is cut-off from being able to communicate with the unit(s) in question, that it is considered an automatic leadership-roll failure for the respective unit(s).

 

[robject]

Rob's Edit

Setup
1. Leadership task rolled by Leader
2. Tactics Mod (not a pool) rolled by Leader
3. Situation

Each Round
1. Action
2. Update Situation
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[/FONT]Actions are tasks. Combat IS complex. But there is order: back before there was a task system, the combat system defined tasks and the DMs associated with each. This organizes itself well with a task system. I'll try that.

Define the skills used during combat, and show how to use each. Complexity is pushed down to the skill level. Theoretically.

Choices or Not? If we want meaningful choices in combat, then each skill has a minimal number of applicable DMs. Reality will bend, but the players will know exactly what the stakes are. I think the hard part will be justifying a minimal set of DMs for "Fighter" skill.

Action-related DMs or difficulty mods are aimed fire, knockdown?,

Athlete
Driver
Explosives
Fighter
Forward Observer
Heavy Weapons
Medic
Recon
Screens (yes, screens)
Stealth

"Burst" and "Continuous" and "Auto" are features of a weapon, not skill related. If you've got SMG skill, you just know how to use it.

 

[robject]

Athlete (running well).

Driver, Flyer, Rider.

Explosives and Sapper.

Fighter. Weapons and unarmed.

Gunner. e.g. Personal White Globe.

Heavy Weapons and Forward Observer.

Leader.

Liaison. Negotiating terms, even during combat.

Mechanic and Medic. Repairs.

Recon or Stealth. Maybe related to Concealment.

Survival. Reflexes in responding to a surprise attack, for example.

Tactics. Tactics Mod.



Environmental skills
High G.
Hostile Env.
Vacc Suit.
Zero G.

 

[robject]

Now I'll cobble together T5's combat philosophy. Turns out there are already combat modes there.


The Attack Task
- apparent target size
- attacker and target cover
- target speed
- deals with armor penetration
- may use the Tactics Mod

Attack Mode
- uses the Attack Task
- special rules for guns with firing modes
- special rule for Launchers

Aimed fire Mode
- uses the Attack Task
- a different flow than Attack Mode

Concealment Mode
- SHOULD USE Stealth as a Concealment Task

Fire suppression Mode
- uses the attack task
- restricted to return-fire

Not Considered
Falling and Ramming
Unarmed combat
Hit Location
Ammunition tracking
Knockdown
Extra targets

 

[kilemall]

Huh.

IANAT5P, but I don't understand why the extra chrome when a simple declaration of what you are doing and the nature of the weaponry should apply attack/defense DMs, target limits, and exposure.

 

[Original_Carl]

Attack, Aimed Fire, and Fire Suppression can all be combined into Attack (and maybe should be).

Concealment should go under Defense, or possibly Tactical.

Regarding unconsidered rules:

Falling and Ramming should be super-simple, and damage calculated according to the faller's speed, and the rammer's size and speed. Ramming should require a pilot/driver check.

Procedures for Unarmed Combat (I propose calling it Melee Combat, because SPACE AXE!!!!1) should be nearly identical to procedures for Ranged Combat in order to reduce confusion and complexity.

Hit Location should take place when damage is assessed, as it will affect combatant performance and possibly available actions in the subsequent round.

Ammunition Tracking should go in the dustbin. Note, I understand there are strong opinions on this, and this one is mine.

Knockdown sounds like something that should be done in conjunction with damage assessment.

Extra Targets should be a simple matter of adding a die to your attack roll for every additional target you select, and should be available only in Attack Mode.

Tactics skill should be rewarded. I like the idea of rolling a tactics mod and then providing the skillholder with a pool of points to allocate to her or his teammates when they choose the Tactics mode.

 

[robject]

As long as we're blowing things up, I'm also watching the Snapshot vs. AHL combat discussion, where they agree that AHL had a superior turn structure, vis:

1. Covering Fire - declare if you are spending the turn giving covering fire
2. Movement - moving through and/or under covering fire means you will be shot at.
3. Aimed Fire.
4. Snap Shots.

Snapshot, meanwhile, has a superior interrupt and AP system.
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[Supplement Four]

If you want an Action Point system to use with T5, look to At Close Quarters.

It should be a very easy conversion to T5 since the mechanics are so close.

 

[robject]

Think about the rules in AHL. Holy crap, the "Decision Phase" is very similar to the "Modes" thing I was toying with. Look at this, from the bottom of page 4:

Once a character is committed to one of the three general actions [Cover fire, Aim, Move], the character may not change to a different one.
...
Certain contingency actions not listed above (such as melee or snap shot) are possible, and it is possible for a character to abort his or her planned action ...

Oh yeah, I was on to something, wasn't I?

(Then we move to Action Points, which are tuned to the nature of a tactical boardgame, moving around and doing stuff on a deckplan with figurines. I will be ignoring APs for as long as possible, and perhaps forever, unless or until we move to deckplan combat.)

And then we have Action Phases, which mesh my "Mode" idea nicely with Initiative:

All activity in an action phase is performed in the following sequence:

1. Covering Fire.
2. Movement.
3. Aimed Fire.
4. Snap Shots.

Sounds like AHL allows two snap shots to one aimed shot (or one launcher fire, one grenade throw, etc). I didn't think I liked that idea, but I can see the merit now. And I still think the original T5 rule on Suppressing Fire / Covering Fire is superior.

AHL grants a bonus to automatic fire and shotguns.[FONT=arial,helvetica]


COVER!

[/FONT]The Cover rule for AHL is very instructive.

If the target is under cover but exposed to fire (see Rule 14), the fire is resolved with a DM of -2.

Cover is binary: either you got it or you don't.

I am all for that. I also like attacks being harder by the man taking cover. So I think: make attacks from the guy under cover +1D more difficult, and conversely only permit aimed fire when attacking people under cover.


DAMAGE FOR DUMMIES

Boy am I liking AHL.

Dumb down damage:

1. If the character takes damage from an attack, a Wound is received. This reduces a character's Str, Dex, and End by 1D. If one of those drops to zero, it's a Serious Wound.

2. On a Serious Wound, the character is unconscious for 1D turns. A second Serious Wound kills the character.

3. Dead.


AMMUNITION

I also find this comment in AHL to be similarly enlightening.

Ammunition is largely ignored in the basic game, with characters always firing at the fastest rate of fire and no need ever to reload. In fact, the rates of fire in the basic game would soon empty a weapon and require the character to spend some time reloading it.

Thus I think T5 will work better if the clearly advanced parts of the combat system were in the second half of the combat rules, and stop cluttering up the basic combat mechanics. If we have a clear separation then all of us can enjoy the game.

 

[robject]

Rob's Edit #2

Setup
1. Leadership task rolled by Leader
2. Tactics Mod (not a pool) rolled by Leader
3. Situation

Each Round
1. Decision Phase [Cover, Move, Aim, Heavy]
2. Cover Fire [Red]
3. Movement [Yellow]
4. Aimed Fire [Black]
5. Heavy [White] incl Demolitions, Vehicles, Heavy weapons
6. Snap shots, melee, tactical actions (personal white globes)
7. Situation

The Decision phase, and the former "modes" which are now baked into combat phases as variants of AHL, determines turn initiative. A Decision can be aborted and exchanged for a Snap shot or equivalent action - which are executed at the end of the round.

Cover. Attacks while under cover add 1 die to the difficulty. Only aimed attacks can be made on a target under cover, and the target size is one smaller (e.g. 4).

Alternately, Cover is Armor. Parts of the body not under cover of course have no extra protection. Aimed fire is required to attack units under cover.


Damage, AHL style. When a character takes damage from an attack, a Wound is received. This reduces the character's Str, Dex, and End each by 1D. If one of those drops to zero, it's a Serious Wound. On a Serious Wound, the character is unconscious for 1D turns. A second Serious Wound kills the character.

I think I prefer the "normal", existing damage rule, though.

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[David Johansen]

I don't like cover as a to hit modifier. TNE had it right. If you roll an exposed hit location the cover does nothing and if you hit the cover it acts as armor.

 

[robject]

Rob's Edit #3

Setup
1. Leadership task rolled by Leader
2. Tactics Mod (not a pool) rolled by Leader
3. Situation

Each Round
1. Decision Phase [Cover, Move, Aim, Heavy, Other]

At the beginning of the turn, each player elects what the character is going to do. If the Leadership roll at the beginning of combat was successful, the team may first discuss what each character should do.

The Decision phase determines initiative. A Decision can be aborted and exchanged for Snapfire or an equivalent "Other" action - which are executed at the end of the round. Characters which moved during phase 2 may also perform an "Other" action.

2. Actions. Each character does one of the following:

- Cover Fire [Red]
- Movement [Yellow]
- Aimed Fire [Black]
- Heavy [White] incl Demolitions, Vehicles, Heavy weapons
- Other: Snapfire, Unarmed combat, administer first aid, or etc.

Cover fire and Snapfire may be any firing mode (single/burst/full). Aimed Fire is always single shot mode.

3. Situation


Ranged Attack: Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill
* Minimum task 2D.
* No chance if Size < Range.

Unarmed Attack, Ram, or Block: 2D < Unarmed
* Lowest success wins.
* Attack/Ram or Block each round.
* Minimum task 1D.
* Damage is per weapon, or half STR with improvised or no weapon.
Multiple attacks on a single combatant roll individually against the target, who gets to choose who they hit as long as their combat total is higher.

Difficulty Modifiers
* +1D if moving.
* +1D if target moving.
* -1D if aiming (or -2D if a sight with sufficient range is used).
* +1D in Burst mode: double damage before applying.
* +2D in Full Auto mode: triple damage before applying.
* +1D if smaller than human (e.g. Size 4 or less).
* -1D if vehicle sized. -2D if starship sized.

Damage. Roll dice and apply damage first to armor, Pen first, and high values first; Pen counts twice against armor. Once armor is overcome, the remaining rolls apply at face value, one die to a random physical characteristic.

If Damage is Too Deadly. Apply low values first instead of high values.

SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS
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[/FONT][/FONT]Partial cover is like armor. Treat as half of the ratings given on page 640; for example, stone as Ar10, iron as Ar25, and steel as Ar35. Walls have armor based on the TL of the material.

Blast and Frag damage attack everyone close to the target with the task Range [dice] < Weapon TL.

Ammunition. Simple rule; Complicated rule.

Knockback. Per T5.09.

Falling. Per T5.09.

"Book 1" Style Cover and Armor.If preferred, select cover as a value from 1 to 6. This acts as a dice roll modifier on attacks against the character, but also (at half value) for attacks made by that character. If this rule is used, then attacks on this character also handle armor penetration. In this case, armor value, divided by 10 (round up), is also treated as a dice roll modifier on attacks against this character. If the attack succeeds, armor is also penetrated; roll damage and apply each die (at half value, rounding down) against a random characteristic.

etc

 

[pendragonman]

Rob, I am still confused by the tactics mod. You went from discussing it as a pool to noting it is not a pool. Are you now using it as RAW---

"A character can grant his Tactics Mod to any combatant under his direct control (and within communication). In one Combat Round, he can grant
it to a gunner; in another to a Sniper; in another to someone in hand-to-manipulator combat." (T5.09)

or in some other manner?

 

[David Johansen]

I wonder if Tactics should provide less mechanical advantages.

Retreat Cut Off: enemy cannot retreat without giving up cover
Cross Fire: enemy get reduced cover modifier
Hit and Run: allies get one range band advantage as they close the range and escape
Bait and Switch: enemy mistake intent and are way out of position, increase range next round
Shock and Awe: enemy mistake your numbers and spend more time running and hiding than shooting.

 

[robject]

Rob, I am still confused by the tactics mod.

Actually *I* was confused about the tactics mod: I didn't know what it was. I am now using it As Written.

 

[robject]

I wonder if Tactics should provide less mechanical advantages.

Absolutely -- in a "board" game played with miniatures on a deckplan, tactics (and Leader by the way) should grant the ability to "get past" obstacles, or to move in contested terrain, or to move *into* the line of fire, and so on.