Thinking about Personal Combat for T5

[pendragonman]

Rob, clarifications on Edit 6:

Am I correct in seeing Cautious as the equivalent of Aimed fire and Hasty as the same as snap fire?

I like the default firing condition for weapons. That does, however, require that all ranged weapons be clearly marked for their "military" status.

This system also requires that all weapons have at least their burden listed. Also reach will be needed in melee weapon descriptions.

This edit feels like it would run faster, but I am not certain that isn't because of my history with CT.

 

[Supplement Four]

Should we also point out that after being part of the group to attempt a fix that was part of 5.09, you have gone back to trying to adjust the 5.00 rules?

No, not quite. Or, you'd see me post more. I'd have an entire system posted--as system that I would think works well.

What you are seeing is me dabbling.

The 5.09 rules are better rules. They're not perfect. I think they still need some work. But, they have less problems than the 5.0 rules.

(And, I'm talking about combat rules, not the entire game.)

The 5.0 rules have a charm to them, though. I think that they're a bit unique. They have a flavor, and I thought that flavor should be preserved (and the system tweaked and fixed).

There's no reason why a fixed 5.0 combat system can't exist with a fixed 5.09 combat system. People should choose what they prefer.

 

[robject]

Rob, clarifications on Edit 6:

Am I correct in seeing Cautious as the equivalent of Aimed fire and Hasty as the same as snap fire?

I like the default firing condition for weapons. That does, however, require that all ranged weapons be clearly marked for their "military" status.

This system also requires that all weapons have at least their burden listed. Also reach will be needed in melee weapon descriptions.

This edit feels like it would run faster, but I am not certain that isn't because of my history with CT.

Right, I dumped Aimed Fire because it wasn't in CT, and found that the Cautious Task provides it from T5.00. And Hasty might resemble SnapFire.

I think it might run faster AND be quicker for newbies to pick up, while giving Gearheads plenty of choices. I'll see how it plays.

 

[robject]

I agree with S4. The 5.09 rules are better - they fix some issues and fill gaps - but at the same time, lost the feel of the original.

 

[robject]

Rob, clarifications on Edit 6:

I like the default firing condition for weapons. That does, however, require that all ranged weapons be clearly marked for their "military" status.

This system also requires that all weapons have at least their burden listed. Also reach will be needed in melee weapon descriptions.

Pen,

Thankfully, GunMaker does all of that for us, already: guns created for Traveller5 both have their military descriptors (if any) and Burden pre-calculated. I'm just using what's already there.

GunMaker further identifies features of each weapon, including what firing modes it has, whether or not it has a battlefield override, if they have recoil, muzzle flash, work in a vacuum, and so on. The system is quite thorough.

Also note that by the T5 rules there are, I believe, a few more descriptors which allow burst fire. That means I will have to decide whether it's worth it to list them all, make a note, or what.

 

[robject]

Rob's Merged Edit #7

Rob's Edit #7

This is a Merge Edit. I've adjusted the presentation of my rules to parallel T5.09, and re-organized and integrated the T5.09 sections in a logical way.

In other words, Edit #7 is formatted as an edit of the T5.09 rules.



ROB'S CURRENT RULES (EDIT #7)

Setup: Tactics Mod (not a pool) rolled by character with highest Tactics skill, per T5.

This is the T5.09 section on Tactics.



THE COMBAT ROUND

1. Sitrep by referee.
2. Decision. Each player states his characters' action:

- Evade. Character may not make any attacks or parries. +2D difficulty to being hit.
- Move. Character may open or close distance to opponents, and may attack or parry.
- Operate a Vehicle, Heavy Weapons, Explosives, etc. Character may not make other attacks or parries.
- Take Cover.

T5.09 Cover and Concealment, heavily modified for the following:

If taking cover behind sufficient protection, the character may be attacked at +2D difficulty. If cover is merely concealing him, then the character makes an average Stealth roll each turn to remain hidden. If the Stealth roll fails, he may be attacked that round at a +1D difficulty.

If taking cover before combat, he may not be attacked
until he reveals his position by making an attack.

3. Resolve Action.


THE COMBAT PROCESS

1. Roll to Hit. This is T5.09 Step 1, except for Melee Attack:

Melee Attack: 2D < Characteristic + Skill ( - Burden )
- 3D if the opponent has a longer reach.
- If the weapon's Burden is not zero, use it as a negative DM.
- If Unarmed, damage is equal to the Dice Rating for STR.

Lowest success wins.

2. Roll for Damage and Penetration. This is T5.09 Step 3 with the following changes:

Armor is not destroyed when penetrated; rather, armor loses 10% of its original value. For example, when a hit penetrates Ar 42, it reduces to Ar 38. The second penetrating hit, it reduces to Ar 34, and so on.

For longer combat sessions, apply low die rolls to penetration first instead of high values.

3. Inflict Damage. This is T5.09 Step 4, with an additional note:

For longer combat sessions, allow players to allocate damage to characteristics.

T5.09's HITS AGAINST CHARACTERS is moved into this section.



THE ATTACK TASK

A summary is added at the top of this section:

Ranged Attack: Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill ( - Burden )
- Attack not possible if Size < Range.
- If the weapon's Burden is not zero, use it as a negative DM.
- Minimum task 1D.Melee Attack: 2D < Characteristic + Skill ( - Burden ) - Defender's Characteristic - Defender's Skill
- 3D if the opponent has a longer reach.
- If the weapon's Burden is not zero, use it as a negative DM.
- If Unarmed, damage is equal to the Dice Rating for STR.

Ram/Impact Attack: 2D < Defender Dexterity - Impact Speed

Difficulty per T5.09.
The Target Number per T5.09.
Unskilled or Low Skill per T5.09.

Ranged Attack Modes drastically changed from T5.09 to support:

Burst Fire. Weapons capable of Burst Fire operate this way by default, making two attacks against the target. Single-fire mode may be specified instead. Types which fall into this category include Machine, Accelerator, Assault, Battle, Combat, and Gauss Guns.

Full Auto makes three attacks against the target.

Shotguns and Support Weapons also attack up to two adjacent targets. Support Weapons also typically use Burst Fire (see above).

[No Speed Mods section]
[Target Size mod moved to Special Considerations]
[Cover and Concealment moved to Decision mode]
[No "Cover Me"/Fire Suppression section]

Technological Means per T5.09.

[Tactics section moved in front of the combat round section.]
[Designator fire moved to Special Considerations]

[HITS AGAINST CHARACTERS is moved into the "Inflict Damage" section]

[HITS AGAINST OBJECTS is moved to Special Considerations]

[WHO GOES FIRST? is moved to Special Considerations]



SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS

Ammunition Check. If the players want to track ammo, these guidelines can help. Reloading is typically done when evading or under cover; when Moving, however, there is no reloading possible. If ammunition is depleted, the character must stop and take cover for a round to reload. Make a Check Ammo (2D) task against the weapon's TL to verify that ammunition remains; +1D when in burst mode, and +1D for pistols and exotic weapons. On failure, the weapon is empty, and the character cannot fire this round. Alternately, the round capacity of the weapon under use can be decided before combat. To reload, the character must not take a Move action in the next round.

Blast and Frag damage attack everyone close to the target with the task roll Range [dice] < Weapon TL.

Cautious and Hasty. -1D when Cautious, but the attack is rolled in the next combat round, and a Hit Location may be specified. +1D when Hasty; on success, the target cannot attack or operate equipment for the rest of this combat round.

Designator Fire per T5.09.

Drawing a weapon increases an attack task by +1D.

Explosions per T5.09.

Falling. Per T5.09.

Hits Against Objects per T5.09.

Initiative. This is T5.09 WHO GOES FIRST?

Knockback. Per T5.09.

Parrying uses Skill level as a negative DM against the attacker.

Power Settings. Weapons which have Power Settings (P1, P2, and P3) modify damage as follows: P2 rolls twice damage, and rolls 2D < Quality to avoid a malfunction; P3 rolls thrice damage, and rolls 3D < Quality to avoid a malfunction.

Size of Target. +1D if the target is smaller than human (e.g. Size 4 or less). -1D if the target is larger than human (e.g. Size 6 or greater).

Throwing Blades, Grenades, or Improvised Weapons is a 3D task.

Unaware Targets. -1D if the target is unaware, unconscious, or unsuspecting.

 

[pendragonman]

Wally 89787A vs Clark 988776 in a hand to hand martial arts exchange.

Wally is a Lead Student with skill Fighting 2 (Unarmed 2) = skill 4 in unarmed

Clark is a Student sparring with Wally, Fighting 2 (Unarmed 1 Rifles 1) = skill 3 in unarmed.

Wally's base is 9 (dex) + 4 = 13
Clark's base is 8 (dex) + 3 = 11

There is no burden for fists/feet that I recall.

For Wally to succeed in striking Clark, according to edit 7 above, 2d < 13 - 11 = 2 for a 1/36 probability
For Clark to succeed in striking Wally, according to edit 7 above, 2d < 11 - 17 = -2 needs outstanding success.

So closely matched opponents can't hurt each other?

 

[robject]

So closely matched opponents can't hurt each other?

Sounds ridiculous. I suppose I'll default back to T5.09 for Unarmed combat, or to the "lowest success wins" thingy.

 

[pendragonman]

Sounds ridiculous. I suppose I'll default back to T5.09 for Unarmed combat, or to the "lowest success wins" thingy.

I have found players like the whole "opposed role" thingy, i.e. lowest success. That can shift every round, and if the NPCs are winning too much that is easily nerfed by the GM.

 

[robject]

I have found players like the whole "opposed role" thingy, i.e. lowest success. That can shift every round, and if the NPCs are winning too much that is easily nerfed by the GM.

"I have found that players like/dislike" is useful data. Thank you.

I have found that my players are satisfied with combat, regardless of which Traveller rules we're using, perhaps because we're not very precise about sticking to the rules.

So when I write rules, I tend to want to focus on the simple path with what's most important, and leave the rest as footnotes or ideas.

 

[JFGarber]

- If the weapon's Burden is not zero, use it as a negative DM.

I'm still trying to figure out RAW for combat in 5.09, so will limit my comments to "I really like this idea and will adopt it IMTU".

Rob, do you mean to imply that negative burdens, say for a SSnLp-12, should be applied as a positive DM to make the task easier, or do you intend that zero and negative burdens are ignored?

 

[robject]

I'm still trying to figure out RAW for combat in 5.09, so will limit my comments to "I really like this idea and will adopt it IMTU".

Rob, do you mean to imply that negative burdens, say for a SSnLp-12, should be applied as a positive DM to make the task easier, or do you intend that zero and negative burdens are ignored?

I struggled over that a bit, then decided to take the leap and let Burden always modify. So guns that have a negative burden are also more accurate.

 

[David Johansen]

So, Rob, you know how we were talking about Size being weighted to heavily and issues with using modifiers instead of dice?

I boldly, and indeed heretically suggest the return of the half dice.

 

[robject]

So, Rob, you know how we were talking about Size being weighted to heavily and issues with using modifiers instead of dice?

I boldly, and indeed heretically suggest the return of the half dice.

Kugganzir!

You're free to prefer that, as long as you understand that it won't actually help unless people use it (my implication: they won't).

My preference is to remove things from the rules. Keep them if they're substantial enough to tip the difficulty roll by one die.

 

[robject]

So what I have arrived at is a set of edits to T5.09, some for reorganization, some with minor suggestions, and one major shift away from DMs in general.

I'll be boiling this down further into a number of very specific suggestions for the errata. As specific as possible, anyway.

I'll now color-code:
- reorganizations in BLUE.
- new material in GREEN.
- existing rule changes in RED.



S1. Insert a SETUP section in front of THE COMBAT PROCESS.

a. The Tactics Mod text is moved here.
b. WHO GOES FIRST? is moved here.

S2. Insert a Decision Phase in front of THE COMBAT PROCESS:

- Evade. +2D difficulty to be hit. Cannot attack or parry.
- Move. Open/Close distance. Can attack or parry.
- Operate a vehicle. Can make a vehicle weapon attack.
- Take Cover.

The T5.09 Cover and Concealment rules are moved into "Take Cover" above, with DMs converted to Difficulty Mods:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]S3. If taking cover behind sufficient protection, the character may be attacked at +2D difficulty.

S4. If cover is merely concealing him, then the character makes an average Stealth roll each turn to remain hidden. If the Stealth roll fails, he may be attacked that round at a +1D difficulty.

S5. If taking cover before combat, he may not be attacked until he reveals his position by making an attack.
[/FONT]
Changes to THE COMBAT PROCESS

[FONT=arial,helvetica]S35. Weapon Burden is a DM to attack tasks.
[/FONT]
S6. The Melee Attack rules under Step 1 Roll To Hit are modified:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Melee Attack: 2D < Characteristic + Skill ( - Burden )
- 3D if the opponent has a longer reach.
- Lowest success hits.
- Use the weapon's Burden as a negative DM.
- If Unarmed, damage is equal to the Dice Rating for STR.

[/FONT]S7. Step 2 "Hit Location" is MOVED to a SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS section. (even though this is a reorganization step, it is due to a shift in rules)[FONT=arial,helvetica]

[/FONT]Step 3, Roll for Damage and Pen, is modified:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]S8. Armor is not destroyed when penetrated; rather, armor loses 10% of its original value. For example, when a hit penetrates Ar 42, it reduces to Ar 38. The second penetrating hit, it reduces to Ar 34, and so on.

S[/FONT]tep 4, Inflict Damage.

S9. T5.09's HITS AGAINST CHARACTERS is moved into this section. [FONT=arial,helvetica]

[/FONT]THE ATTACK TASK

S10. Task summaries (Ranged, Melee, and Impact) are added at the top of this section[FONT=arial,helvetica].[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]

S36. The Ranged Attack is simplified to:
- Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill ( - Burden )
- Attack not possible if Size < Range.
- Minimum task 1D.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]Ranged Attack Modes changed from T5.09:[FONT=arial,helvetica]

S22. All attack modes make one attack per round.

[S11. Burst Fire. Weapons capable of Burst Fire operate this way by default, rolling damage twice against the target. Single-fire mode may be specified instead. Types which fall into this category include Machine, Accelerator, Assault, Battle, Combat, and Gauss Guns.] -- this is actually in the T5.09 rules. I used to use CT's burst mode rules, which attack the target twice, but I prefer rolling damage to rolling attacks.
[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]
S13. Shotguns and Support Weapons attack up to two adjacent targets. [Support Weapons also typically use Burst Fire.]

[/FONT]S14. [Speed Mods moved to Special Considerations]
S15. [Target Size mod moved to Special Considerations]
S3 - S5. [Cover and Concealment moved to Decision mode]
S16. ["Cover Me"/Fire Suppression section moved to Special Considerations]
S1. [Tactics section moved to a SETUP section.]
S17. [Designator fire moved to Special Considerations]
S9. [HITS AGAINST CHARACTERS is moved into the "Inflict Damage" section]
S18. [HITS AGAINST OBJECTS is moved to Special Considerations]
S1. [WHO GOES FIRST? is moved to a SETUP section]
[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]

[/FONT][/FONT]S19. SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS section[FONT=arial,helvetica]

S20. Ammunition Check. Reloading is done when evading or under cover; when Moving, however, there is no reloading possible. If ammunition is depleted, the character must stop and take cover for a round to reload. Make a Check Ammo (2D) task against the weapon's TL to verify that ammunition remains; +1D when in burst mode, and +1D for pistols and exotic weapons. On failure, the weapon is empty, and the character cannot fire this round. Alternately, the round capacity of the weapon under use can be decided before combat. To reload, the character must not take a Move action in the next round.

S23. Designator Fire moved to Special Considerations.

S24. Drawing a weapon increases an attack task by +1D.

S25. Explosions [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]moved to Special Considerations.

[/FONT] S26. Falling[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica] moved to Special Considerations.
[/FONT][/FONT]
S16. Fire Suppression moved to Special Considerations.

[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica] S27. Hits Against Objects[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica] moved to Special Considerations.

[/FONT][/FONT] S28. Knockback [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]moved to Special Considerations.[/FONT][/FONT]

S30. Power Settings moved to Special Considerations.

S31. Power Settings: Weapons which have Power Settings (P1, P2, and P3) modify damage as follows: P2 rolls twice damage, and rolls 2D < Quality to avoid a malfunction; P3 rolls thrice damage, and rolls 2D < Quality twice to avoid a malfunction. [This rule is from T5.00]

S32. Size of Target. +1D if the target is smaller than human (e.g. Size 4 or less). -1D if the target is larger than human (e.g. Size 6 or greater).

S14. Speed Mods moved to Special Considerations

[/FONT]

 

[robject]

So my first suggestion(s) will be reorganizational, which brings a lot of benefit for relatively easy changes.

 

[pendragonman]

S2.

Evade. +2 or +2D? Very different. In other areas you are using increasing decreasing die values. Only here is it different.

 

[robject]

S2.

Evade. +2 or +2D? Very different. In other areas you are using increasing decreasing die values. Only here is it different.

You caught a typo. +2D.

 

[JFGarber]

S8. Would both a fusion gun and a TL-5 revolver erode 10% armor each strike?

Perhaps sum the damage dice and apply that as a % reduction?

 

[robject]

S8. Would both a fusion gun and a TL-5 revolver erode 10% armor each strike?

If they both pen, then yes.

You agree that damage is damage, regardless of where it comes from. I agree that a more realistic measure would be based on (something like) TL, or total damage, or penetration damage, or even type of damage.

10% is easy.

10% also approximates Hit Location Armor Reduction.

Note that Hit Location kills Torso protection 100% every 1 in 6 shots. That means torso armor has a half life of 3 penetrating hits... Does it matter what weapon does the pen? No....

(Armor By Hit Location is probably going to be THE armor-killing mechanic for T5. I seriously doubt my 10% suggestion has a chance. So, take that as you will.)