Thinking about Personal Combat for T5

[robject]

I've updated my draft rules in the OP.

They are not final, and they're not going to replace what's in T5.09.

I rationalized away cover, thinking in the Big Picture mode of tactics. Of which I am NOT experienced, which means I have some things wrong. The rationalization makes it easier to hit unaware characters -- therefore the typical result is not to modify difficulty for typical actions (cover or movement) which makes characters in general easier to hit. However, this is balanced by changing damage to low dice first. Your analysis will help me. This might cause a lot of damage that doesn't hurt. We'll see.

I can typically integrate and rationalize things well. For example, rationalizing away cover.

In exchange for that rationalization, I hit upon an elegant (but incomplete) rule for handling ammunition.

 

[robject]

Aaand I think I don't like it now that I'm thinking about it.

I think I prefer hits to be a bit harder and be more likely to cause damage.

 

[pendragonman]

Aaand I think I don't like it now that I'm thinking about it.

I think I prefer hits to be a bit harder and be more likely to cause damage.

As to ammo, no "out of ammo" situation is defined and T5 doesn't track ammo.

Low first is too slow to penetrate armor. High first too quick.

Outside in? Lowest die then highest die, etc...?

 

[robject]

As to ammo, no "out of ammo" situation is defined and T5 doesn't track ammo.

That's an opportunity, not a problem. So I make movement the place where ammo is important, and used the attack type to moderate the benefit of moving.

Low first is too slow to penetrate armor. High first too quick.

Outside in? Lowest die then highest die, etc...?

Hopefully I can show that that's another opportunity. It's used to balance how easy it is to hit. I made it slightly harder to hit, therefore a stronger damage mechanic is reasonable to balance that out.

(NOTE: actually that's perfect, because it allows two different feels to the same combat system with one tiny change. That sort of detail is USEFUL to a combat system: the referee can tune it quickly to the encounter, or to the players.)

I'm playing through a couple of combat scenarios now to see what feels right and what feels wrong. Two gunners on each side, different weapons (an SMG, an ACR-10, a Fusion Gun-17, and a Laser Rifle) but all have combat armor (Ar28) and the same Fighting Number (12) - Say Dexterity 8 and Fighter-4.

The rules are bubbling around a bit; if there's enough energy in the system there might be another reorganization in the rules.

 

[robject]

Low-to-high versus High-to-low can result in quite a spread. Low to high definitely seems underpowered. I'm relatively happy with high-to-low. It doesn't kill targets, but it can knock them out if the shot penetrates, depending on the attack mode (e.g. burst or full auto).

 

[robject]

Well, it seems that damage may be too powerful, and the entire purpose of aimed fire is lost in my current edit. So I have to backtrack.

Different attack modes allow characters of different skill levels and different weapon modes to contribute.

T5.00 designated "Aimed Fire" as deliberate. The attacker was stationary and more vulnerable. It also used Cautious or Hasty mode.

meanwhile...


The snapshot is the basic attack. No special attention made. Single-shot weapons, and for the less skilled.

Burst and full auto are for enhanced damage or pen, and require a bit more skill. If you have that, then the right weapon will let you do better.

Aimed fire is, perhaps, then for the sniper.

 

[robject]

T5.00 offers a potential solution for "damage is too damaging". I blindly assigned double damage to burst mode and triple damage to full auto. T5.00 instead turns concepts on their head and offers this:

Aimed Fire: damage as written.
"AutoFire": +1D damage if the attack penetrates.
SnapFire: +2D damage if the attack penetrates.

...and also assumes the damage notes for power settings from GunMaker:

P2 is twice damage.
P3 is thrice damage.

Burst is "three shots per pull". No attack or damage guidance.
Full is more or less hosing down a volume of space. No attack or damage guidance.
(Note that p.244 says "Firing more bullets theoretically means the weapon can do more damage.") So the thought is incomplete in T5.00.




T5.09 changes this to:

Aimed Fire: one attack
Standard: two attacks
SnapFire: three attacks

Burst: twice damage
Full/Auto: thrice damage

(This is not a bad thing: the player dials the level of carnage, and this is the one place where rolling more dice is more gratifying.)

GunMaker in T5.09 also adds these rules:

Burst = two attacks against the same target.
Full = "series of attacks against targets".
P1 = half damage
P3 = double damage

...and expands the modes available to weapons.

 

[robject]

Rob's Edit #4

Setup
1. Leadership task rolled by Leader
2. Tactics Mod (not a pool!) rolled by Leader
3. Situation

Each Round

0. Strategy. If the Leadership roll at the beginning of combat was successful, the team may discuss what each character should do in this round. Otherwise, skip this step.

1. Decision. Each player selects a die color based on what his character is going to do:

• (Red) Cover Fire,
• (Yellow) Move: Close Range and Snap Fire/Melee,
• (Black) Aimed Fire,
• (White) Operate a Vehicle, Heavy Weapons, Demolitions, etc,
• or (None) Snap Fire/Melee or a non-combat action.

A Decision can be aborted and exchanged for Snap Fire/Melee or a non-combat action - which is executed at the end of the round. Non-combat actions include: first aid, changing position, reloading, fleeing, etc.

2. Actions. Each player executes his character's Decision in order: Red, Yellow, Black, White, None.

Cover Fire and Snap Fire may be any firing mode (single/burst/full). Aimed Fire is always single shot mode.

3. Situation. Results are summarized and the referee gives the sitrep.


Actions

Ranged Attack: Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill

• Minimum task 2D.
• Not possible if Size < Range.
• Aimed fire is not possible against moving targets.

Melee Attack, Ram, or Block: 2D < Skill (Unarmed, Blade, etc)

• Minimum task 1D.
• +1D if the opponent has a longer reach.
• Lowest success wins.
• Attack/Ram or Block each round.
• Damage is per weapon, or half STR with improvised or no weapon.

Multiple attacks on a single combatant roll individually against the target, who gets to choose who they hit as long as their combat total is higher.

Difficulty Modifiers

• +1D if the attacker is moving.
• +1D if the target is moving or taking cover.
• -1D if aiming (or -2D if a sight with sufficient range is used).
• +1D when firing in Burst mode: double damage before applying.
• +2D when firing in Full Auto mode: triple damage before applying.
• +1D if the target is smaller than human (e.g. Size 4 or less).
• -1D if the target is larger than human (e.g. Size 6 or greater).
• -1D if the target is unaware, unconscious, or unsuspecting.

Damage. Roll dice and apply damage first to armor, Pen first, and high values first; Pen counts twice against armor. Once armor is overcome, the remaining rolls apply at face value, one die to a random physical characteristic. If Damage is Too Deadly, apply low values first instead of high values.

SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS

Ammunition Check. Reloading is typically done when under cover; when in Assault Mode, however, there is no reloading possible. This means the character may take several single-shot attacks in a string of multiple assault rounds, a few burst mode attacks, or one attack at full auto. If the character is only moving for one round, then ammunition does not have to be checked. The round capacity of the weapon under use should be decided before combat. Once ammunition is depleted, the character must stop and take cover for a round to reload. If ammunition tracking is not desired, make a Check Ammo (2D) task against the weapon's TL to verify that ammunition remains; +1D when in burst mode, and +1D for pistols and exotic weapons. On failure, the weapon is empty, and the character cannot fire this round. To reload, the character must not take a move action in the next round.

Blast and Frag damage attack everyone close to the target with the task roll Range [dice] < Weapon TL.

Cover is armor, based on the type of cover. Use half-values of materials from T5.09 p640: Wood is 2, Stone is 10, Bronze is 20, Steel is 35. For bulkhead walls, use the wall's TL.

"Book 1" Style Cover and Armor. If preferred, select cover as a value from 1 to 6. This acts as a dice roll modifier on attacks against the character, but also (at half value) for attacks made by that character. If this rule is used, then attacks on this character also handle armor penetration. In this case, armor value, divided by 10 (round up), is also treated as a dice roll modifier on attacks against this character. If the attack succeeds, armor is also penetrated; roll damage and apply each die at half value, rounding down, against a random characteristic.

Falling. Per T5.09.

Knockback. Per T5.09.

 

[robject]

Lessons Learned

Dial up the Carnage. Being able to make multiple attacks and being able to roll multiple damage dice as the player chooses is satisfying.

Hit Location. Rolling hit location is typically not satisfying.

 

[robject]

Rob's Edit #5

Getting a mite leggy.


SETUP

Combat setup has three phases:

1. Leadership task rolled by Leader.
2. Tactics Mod (not a pool!) rolled by whoever has the best Tactics score.
3. Sitrep by referee.


THE COMBAT ROUND

The combat round has four phases:

1. Strategy. If the Leadership roll at the beginning of combat was successful, the team may discuss what each character should do in this round. Otherwise, skip this step.

2. Decision. Each player selects a die color based on his character's Action:

• (Red) Suppressing Fire,
• (Yellow) Move,
• (Black) Aimed Fire,
• (White) Operate a Vehicle, Heavy Weapons, Demolitions, etc,
• or (Default) AutoFire/SnapFire/Melee or a non-combat action.

3. Actions are resolved in phases: Yellow (Move), Black (Aimed Fire), White (Vehicles and special attacks), Default. Red Phase (Fire Suppression) is reactive.

4. Situation. The referee gives the sitrep.


ACTIONS

Suppressing Fire. Fire suppression happens whenever an opponent makes an attack. It may be in any firing mode (single/burst/full).

Move. A character Moving may also take a Default action during the Default phase.

Aimed Fire. Aimed Fire is always single shot mode.

Default Actions. A Decision can be aborted and exchanged for the Default action, which is executed at the end of the round. AutoFire and SnapFire may be any firing mode (single/burst/full). Non-combat actions include: first aid, changing position, fleeing, etc.


THE ATTACK TASK

Ranged Attack: Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill

• Minimum task 2D.
• Not possible if Size < Range.

Melee Attack, Ram, or Block: 2D < Skill (Unarmed, Blade, etc)

• Minimum task 1D.
• +1D if the opponent has a longer reach.
• Lowest success wins.
• Damage is per weapon, or Dice Rating for STR with no weapon.

Melee combat involving more than two people all roll the attack task. The two lowest successes win and choose who gets hit.

Difficulty Modifiers

• +1D if the attacker is moving.
• +1D if the target is moving or taking cover.

• +1D for AutoFire, and +1D damage on penetration.
• +2D for SnapFire or Suppressing Fire, and +2D damage on penetration.
• +1D when firing in Burst mode; two attacks are made.
• +2D when firing in Full Auto mode: three attacks are made.

• -1D when Cautious, but the attack is rolled in the next combat round.
• +1D when Hasty; on success, the target cannot attack or operate equipment for the rest of this combat round.

• +1D if the target is smaller than human (e.g. Size 4 or less).
• -1D if the target is larger than human (e.g. Size 6 or greater).

• -1D if the target is unaware, unconscious, or unsuspecting.

Damage. Roll dice and apply damage first to armor, Pen first, and high values first; Pen counts twice against armor. Once armor is overcome, the remaining rolls apply at face value, one die to a random physical characteristic. If Damage is Too Deadly, apply low values first instead of high values.

Power Settings. Weapons which have Power Settings (P1, P2, and P3) modify damage as follows: P2 rolls twice damage, and rolls 2D < Quality to avoid a malfunction; P3 rolls thrice damage, and rolls 3D < Quality to avoid a malfunction.

SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS

Ammunition Check. If the character only moves every other round, then ammunition does not need to be checked. Reloading is typically done when under cover; when Moving, however, there is no reloading possible. This means the character may take several single-shot attacks in a string of multiple assault rounds, a few burst mode attacks, or one attack at full auto. Once ammunition is depleted, the character must stop and take cover for a round to reload. Make a Check Ammo (2D) task against the weapon's TL to verify that ammunition remains; +1D when in burst mode, and +1D for pistols and exotic weapons. On failure, the weapon is empty, and the character cannot fire this round. Alternately, the round capacity of the weapon under use can be decided before combat. To reload, the character must not take a Move action in the next round.

Blast and Frag damage attack everyone close to the target with the task roll Range [dice] < Weapon TL.

Cover is armor, based on the type of cover. Use half-values of materials from T5.09 p640: Wood is 2, Stone is 10, Bronze is 20, Steel is 35. For bulkhead walls, use the wall's TL.

"Book 1" Style Cover and Armor. If preferred, select cover as a value from 1 to 6. This acts as a dice roll modifier on attacks against the character, but also (at half value) for attacks made by that character. If this rule is used, then attacks on this character also handle armor penetration. In this case, armor value, divided by 10 (round up), is also treated as a dice roll modifier on attacks against this character. If the attack succeeds, armor is also penetrated; roll damage and apply each die at half value, rounding down, against a random characteristic.

Falling. Per T5.09.

Knockback. Per T5.09.

 

[pendragonman]

If edit 5 replaces all of edit 4, then my question about 4 is solved.

I was going to ask if aimed fire cannot hit moving targets then

a) how did Oswald hit Kennedy?
b) how do anti tank weapons kill tanks?
c) alternate to b==> how does a tank with a decent stabilization system in hull down defilade track and kill other tanks and then maintain aimed fire as they shift to their next alternate position?

 

[aramis]

If edit 5 replaces all of edit 4, then my question about 4 is solved.

I was going to ask if aimed fire cannot hit moving targets then

a) how did Oswald hit Kennedy?
b) how do anti tank weapons kill tanks?
c) alternate to b==> how does a tank with a decent stabilization system in hull down defilade track and kill other tanks and then maintain aimed fire as they shift to their next alternate position?

Oswald probably didnt hit Kennedy. The angle is a nearly impossible shot, and many people heard shots from the direction of the grassy knoll... which lines up better with the film and the autopsy notes.

Aimed fire vs a moving target is not really aimed, in the sense that you line the hairs up... it is three different regimes.

• wait for it to cross the line
• shoot where it should be when the round gets there
• slow enough for the aim point chang to not matter

Aimed fire in game isn't The opposite of the standard combat shot - 'Tis the opposite of hip shooting. the default is sights used, unbraced, Weaver or equivalent longarm Standing stance.

 

[David Johansen]

So I ran some 5.09 combat with the kids at the store this afternoon. I still find it a bit over fiddly and weird. Though after getting seven kids through character creation over a three hour period my brain wasn't exactly running at full efficiency.

In particular I find rolling to determine which characteristic is damaged a pain. You need to roll for each die individually. You can't even record each die and re-roll it. Hit version 1 might be on to something though I can't help but wonder if 10+ is too high given that many weapons only do 2d damage.

 

[pendragonman]

Oswald probably didnt hit Kennedy. The angle is a nearly impossible shot, and many people heard shots from the direction of the grassy knoll... which lines up better with the film and the autopsy notes.

Aimed fire vs a moving target is not really aimed, in the sense that you line the hairs up... it is three different regimes.

• wait for it to cross the line
• shoot where it should be when the round gets there
• slow enough for the aim point chang to not matter

Aimed fire in game isn't The opposite of the standard combat shot - 'Tis the opposite of hip shooting. the default is sights used, unbraced, Weaver or equivalent longarm Standing stance.

Ok then, how did the mafia hit man behind the grassy knoll hit Kennedy without aimed fire?

And I have to disagree with you about that bit on aimed fire not really aimed. The whole purpose of aimed fire is to reduce the difficulty of the die roll---according to T5.09:

Aimed Fire. The Attacker deliberately and cautiously aims his weapon at a target. He may designate one Aimed Target in a Combat Round and resolve the attack in the next.

Which the effect is difficulty -1D and only one attack roll over the span of 2 combat rounds. Clearly this would be useful in reducing the problems induced by the speed mod:

Speed Mods
Speed addresses the difficulty of accuracy while moving, and the difficulty of hitting a moving target. Target Movement. The Target applies a negative Speed Mod equal to his speed. A moving target is harder to hit

 

[robject]

If edit 5 replaces all of edit 4, then my question about 4 is solved.

I'm considering how far to simplify all this nonsense.

 

[Supplement Four]

Should I point out that all of this work and figuring would not be necessary if T5 had been released with a solid, well-tested combat mechanics?

 

[David Johansen]

Well, if wishes were horses.

Honestly, I spend a great deal of time wishing T5 looked more like T4.

 

[robject]

We have what we have. And I assume there are people who have indeed play-tested the T5.09 rules and like them just as they are.

Like most Traveller players, I toy with all of the systems in Traveller. Many of you do, too. I just do this aloud because I work better this way.

Mike's deleted post expresses a concern I have over the rules: they go too far in trying to cover everything. Some of those Everything Rules are fine, but they don't belong in a core combat flow. They go in an Advanced Topics or Special Considerations section.

I see little point in a Fire Suppression mode in the basics. I also see little point to a Full Automatic Burn The Clip mode in the basics. Similarly "Aimed Fire". I also think weapons DEFAULT to a particular firing mode, and when that mode is not Single Fire then that should be pointed out. I started thinking this after re-reading the Book 1 combat rules.

 

[robject]

Rob's Edit #6. This is a big one.

SETUP

: Tactics Mod (not a pool!) rolled by whoever has the best Tactics score.

THE COMBAT ROUND

1. Sitrep by referee

2. Action. Each character performs an action and determines its results.

Evade. Character may not make any attacks or parries. +2D difficulty to being hit.

Move. Character may open or close distance to opponents, and may attack or parry.

Operate a Vehicle, Heavy Weapons, Explosives, etc. Character may not make other attacks or parries.

Take Cover. If taking cover behind sufficient protection, the character may be attacked at +2D difficulty. If cover is merely concealing him, then the character makes an average Stealth roll each turn to remain hidden. If the Stealth roll fails, he may be attacked that round at a +1D difficulty.

If taking cover before combat, he may not be attacked until he reveals his position by making an attack.


THE ATTACK TASK

Ranged Attack: Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill (- Weapon Burden)

- If the weapon's Burden is not zero, use it as a negative DM.

• Minimum task 2D.
• Not possible if Size < Range.

Melee Attack, Ram, or Block: Range(dice) < Skill (Unarmed, Blade, etc)

• Minimum task 1D.
• +1D if the opponent has a longer reach.
• Lowest success wins.
• Damage is per weapon, or Dice Rating for STR with no weapon.

Machine Guns and Assault, Battle, or Combat weapons operate in Burst Mode by default: they make two attacks against the target, plus up to two more attacks to adjacent targets at +1D difficulty. Single-fire mode may be specified instead.

Shotguns attack three adjacent targets.

Damage. Roll dice and apply damage first to armor, Pen first, and high values first; Pen counts twice against armor. Once armor is overcome, the remaining rolls apply at face value, one die to a random physical characteristic. For lower damage, apply low values first instead of high values.



ADVANCED or LESS COMMON CONSIDERATIONS

Ammunition Check. If the character only moves every other round, then ammunition does not need to be checked. Reloading is typically done when evading or under cover; when Moving, however, there is no reloading possible. This means the character may take several single-shot attacks in a string of multiple assault rounds, a few burst mode attacks, or one attack at full auto. Once ammunition is depleted, the character must stop and take cover for a round to reload. Make a Check Ammo (2D) task against the weapon's TL to verify that ammunition remains; +1D when in burst mode, and +1D for pistols and exotic weapons. On failure, the weapon is empty, and the character cannot fire this round. Alternately, the round capacity of the weapon under use can be decided before combat. To reload, the character must not take a Move action in the next round.

Blast and Frag damage attack everyone close to the target with the task roll Range [dice] < Weapon TL.

Cautious and Hasty. -1D when Cautious, but the attack is rolled in the next combat round, and a Hit Location may be specified. +1D when Hasty; on success, the target cannot attack or operate equipment for the rest of this combat round.

Drawing a weapon increases an attack task by +1D.

Falling. Per T5.09.

Knockback. Per T5.09.

Parrying uses Skill level as a negative DM against the attacker.

Power Settings. Weapons which have Power Settings (P1, P2, and P3) modify damage as follows: P2 rolls twice damage, and rolls 2D < Quality to avoid a malfunction; P3 rolls thrice damage, and rolls 3D < Quality to avoid a malfunction.

Smaller and Larger Targets. +1D if the target is smaller than human (e.g. Size 4 or less). -1D if the target is larger than human (e.g. Size 6 or greater).

Throwing Blades is a 3D task.

Unaware Targets. -1D if the target is unaware, unconscious, or unsuspecting.

 

[pendragonman]

Should I point out that all of this work and figuring would not be necessary if T5 had been released with a solid, well-tested combat mechanics?

Should we also point out that after being part of the group to attempt a fix that was part of 5.09, you have gone back to trying to adjust the 5.00 rules?