Thought Experiment- drop the ship price

[Grav_Moped]

Not in LBB2'77. A m1/bis computer at TL-6 was perfectly able to control J-6.

LBB2'81 was changed presumably to be more in line with LBB5, where jump capability was limited by tech level. Still, a TL-6 computer can control Jump-2, and a TL-8 computer can control Jump-3. Yet, the First Imperium couldn't do that.

In part because nobody* had done it yet. (This might explain why it didn't happen in the OTU under '77 rules, aside from the OTU not having really been worked out in that kind of detail yet.)
It's presumably not TL-constrained in LBB2'81 once you have access to the software and have the tech base for the hardware (drives and computer) to support it.

Also, "Prototype" or "Early" jump software might require significantly more computing resources than mature jump software (though it's not mentioned in the rules, not being T5 and all yet).

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*that they could copy from

 

[Condottiere]

I don't recall that option.

However, alpha and beta versions would be bugged.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I don't recall that option.

However, alpha and beta versions would be bugged.

Larger programs? No, it's not in there (but it's a plausible extension of the TL Stage Effects concept).

Bugs would come from the write-your-own computer program rules in LBB2. Expect a -DM if the software writers weren't educated at the necessary tech level.

 

[Dragoner]

It's not resurrecting the dead on planet jupiter I guess.

I often just give the players a ship, and then watch them go, classic is the ship in the cave or secret base such as in Piper's Cosmic Computer. Reality is probably the opposite though, vessels should be an order of magnitude more expensive.

 

[MichaelSTee]

I would like to point out that if using this baseline assumption, it would mean that starships depreciate in resale value by 1% per year (on average).

• Brand new starship = 100% delivery price from the shipyard
• 10 year old starship = 90% delivery price from the shipyard
• 20 year old starship = 80% delivery price from the shipyard
• 30 year old starship = 70% delivery price from the shipyard
• 40 year old starship = 60% delivery price from the shipyard

I've been thinking about having used ships. Base price is 5% reduction from the new price for every 10 years old the ship is, down to a minimum of 50% of new price for a ship 100 years or older. If the hull is intact, then it's still worth a good bit. The reduction in price does not account for a former owner replacing a major component (drive or computer). Were I offering these ships to players, I'd have a random table for quirks, a table for replaced components, maybe a 2d6 or a 1d10 roll for age (1 point per decade). But then I'd rather make an adventure out of salvaging or finding a used ship.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In part because nobody* had done it yet. (This might explain why it didn't happen in the OTU under '77 rules, aside from the OTU not having really been worked out in that kind of detail yet.)
It's presumably not TL-constrained in LBB2'81 once you have access to the software and have the tech base for the hardware (drives and computer) to support it.

I would assume the Imperium backstory was developed after LBB5, so used those assumptions, but the game Imperium was reputedly developed at the same time, by the same people, as Traveller, and had jump fixed at J-2.

Perhaps it was the other way around, the Imperium backstory led to the TL limitations in LBB5?

Also, "Prototype" or "Early" jump software might require significantly more computing resources than mature jump software (though it's not mentioned in the rules, not being T5 and all yet).

LBB2'81 doesn't limit the software, it sets an arbitrary limit the type of computer needed for jump, i.e. a m/4 for J-4, just like LBB5.

 

[Condottiere]

While I agree that starships are incredibly cheap, second hand price would be dependent on perceived remaining utility, inclusive scrap value.

 

[Enoki]

I think the opposite should occur. That is fix the trade system and make it more conducive to owning and paying for a ship. That's what I did.

I use a home brew system for determining how much cargo and passengers are available, and the cost per ton on cargo is variable. I dropped the per jump in favor of jump distance. The original rules charged by the jump, so a higher jump ship got the same cargo price as a lower jump ship did. That penalized higher jump capable ships heavily.
I also allow players to ask for higher prices than list if they want, but that can be rejected. This works on the basis of scarcity. So, if you are going to a world with poor economics and little trade to deliver something like the weekly mail and cargo, you can demand more per ton, particularly if you are in a system with few other ships present, and likely get it. On the other hand, you may have to lower your price if it's a world that has plenty of commerce traffic and is going to somewhere with a strong economic system.
What that does is generally force a ship owner to pick a route where they are delivering from a high-end economic system and trade hub to a system or systems that are economic backwaters. That creates opportunities for the small ship and crew to have scenarios dropped on them in those systems.

 

[infojunky]

I think the opposite should occur. That is fix the trade system and make it more conducive to owning and paying for a ship. That's what I did.

I use a home brew system for determining how much cargo and passengers are available, and the cost per ton on cargo is variable. I dropped the per jump in favor of jump distance. The original rules charged by the jump, so a higher jump ship got the same cargo price as a lower jump ship did. That penalized higher jump capable ships heavily.
I also allow players to ask for higher prices than list if they want, but that can be rejected. This works on the basis of scarcity. So, if you are going to a world with poor economics and little trade to deliver something like the weekly mail and cargo, you can demand more per ton, particularly if you are in a system with few other ships present, and likely get it. On the other hand, you may have to lower your price if it's a world that has plenty of commerce traffic and is going to somewhere with a strong economic system.
What that does is generally force a ship owner to pick a route where they are delivering from a high-end economic system and trade hub to a system or systems that are economic backwaters. That creates opportunities for the small ship and crew to have scenarios dropped on them in those systems.

No problem there, in the real world shipping costs are often controlled by what the cost of physically shipping said item is with a profit margin on top. Factors like insurance, wages, deprecations and Duties/Fees all add in.

heck in my games negotiation for the cost of Life Support supplies is a thing, where a good deal on them means extra profits.

 

[HanleyTucks]

Are Traveller spacecraft starting to sound cheap yet?

Yes. But with space shuttles etc, we get maybe one launch annually, and globally a dozen people a year into space. CT seems to assume a rather greater churn.

So we can look at it from what's a realistic kind of craft, and its expense, and think about the sort of universe you get from that. Or you can go backwards, think about the sort of universe you want, and what sort of assumptions can make it happen.

If we want a universe of lots of smaller ships at relatively lower cost, traveling around a lot - then we're looking at something more like 16-19th century European ships. And there, as I said, the obstacle to travel was less the expense and more the insane danger. Storms, scurvy and piracy!

 

[Condottiere]

That's the thing about life support, why is it so expensive?

You could light an oxygen candle, send the scrubbers to dry cleaning, or if it includes food, stock up with ramen.

And how much does it cost of have a cat onboard?

 

[infojunky]

That's the thing about life support, why is it so expensive?

Because they wrote a rule....

I treat Life Support cost as a negotiable expense. Using the rules in Beltstrike as amended in the Cargoaut's LETTER OF MARQUE

 

[Spinward Flow]

Using the rules in Beltstrike

Standard stateroom life support is Cr2000 per person for 2 weeks (basically Cr1000 per person/week).
Beltstrike life support reserves cost Cr150,000 and 1 ton of cargo capacity for 150 person/weeks (also basically Cr1000 per person/week).

If a ship receives 2 week annual overhauls every year (52 weeks) ... then 150 person/weeks can supply life support for 3 people for 50 weeks (an entire "year's worth" of life support between overhauls) ... provided your crew doesn't mind consuming "preservative heavy" meals (and lots of algae) all the time.

I used that relationship of "1 ton of life support reserves can support 3 people for 50 weeks between annual overhauls" as the foundational basis for my explorations into regenerative life support using Laboratory space aboard (1 ton of which costs MCr0.2 in ship construction cost). What FFS (I think?) called the different levels (or grades, if you prefer) of Environmental Control.

• Type I: Mininal life support provides a sealed environment, heat, and light. The Air supply is open loop, meaning there's no attempt to recycle it. Stored air provides fresh oxygen while minimal air processing (filters and chemicals) removes the worst of the waste products from the air. Water and food are not normally provided but may be carried along. Normal duration is three hours.
• Type II: Basic life support provides heat, light, and short-term purified air. This is also an open-loop system but it provides better air processing to clean impurities out. Nether water nor food are included. Normal duration is 12 hours.
• Type III': Standard life support is so named because it's the standard system aboard spacecraft. It provides light, thermal control, closed-loop water recycling, and semi-closed loop air. Food is a carried consumeable, and given the duration it must be separately provided rather than carried on in the passenger compartments. Water is recycled and is basically unlimited. The air is purified and recycled, but filters have a limited life and slowly break down. Normal duration is two weeks.
• Type IV: Extended life support provides light, thermal control, and closed-loop air and water (indefinite). Food is still a carried consumable. Normal duration is limietd only by food supply.
• Type V: Endurance life support provides full closed-loop recycling for air, water, and food through use of hydro/aeroponics, aquaculture, and even carniculture. There are several different levels of Type V life support, each representing a major improvement over the previous. These forms of life support are usually only used aboard space stations and generation ships. Since Type V life support systems are miniature ecosystems, they are vulnerable to sudden changes in population. A sudden influx or outflux of people can change the system balance and cause failures.
  • Type V-a: At this level, air and food are provided by low-level plant life, usually algae which requires processing to create food.
  • Type V-b: This level provides vats and gardens. The gardens provide supplemental foods to the majority algae vat food.
  • Type V-c: This level relies more upon the gardens for providing food than the algae vats. It also incorporates small animals like chickens or fish (usually any edible herbivore up to about 10kg).
  • Type V-d: This level relies entierly upon gardens to provide both air and food. At this level larger animals can be incorpoprated into the evironmental systems. This level is usually only found on the largest space stations or on domed environments.
  • Type V-e: This level is a full working ecosystem incorporating several hundred species of plants and animals. These are usually only found on large domed environments.

Type I is your basic civilian enclosed vehicle setup.
Type II is what your basic military enclosed vehicle setup (what Striker would call an Overpressure life support system).
Type III is our stock and standard Cr2000 per 2 weeks per person rule from LBB2 used for starship staterooms life support.
Type IV is actually the Beltstrike rule of reserve life support (150 person/weeks @ MCr0.15 per ton, consumable, occupies cargo space).

Since Type IV equates to a displacement requirement of 1 ton (of consumables, that need to be replaced) per 3 persons per year between annual overhauls, I then simply extrapolated that requirement into the various Type V options as requiring Laboratory space:

• Type V-a: 2 person/years per ton of Laboratory space (MCr0.2 per ton) = 0.5 tons per person/year
• Type V-b: 1 person/years per ton of Laboratory space (MCr0.2 per ton) = 1 ton per person/year
• Type V-c: 0.5 person/years per ton of Laboratory space (MCr0.2 per ton) = 2 tons per person/year
• Type V-d: 0.25 person/years per ton of Laboratory space (MCr0.2 per ton) = 4 tons per person/year
• Type V-e: 0.125 person/years per ton of Laboratory space (MCr0.2 per ton) = 8 tons per person/year

I then stipulated that to run the Type V Environmental Controls (safely) you need to have medical personnel overseeing the health and well being of everyone inside that environment.

• Type V-a: requires Medical-2 skill per 120 persons (Nurse skill level)
• Type V-b: requires Medical-2 skill per 120 persons (Nurse skill level)
• Type V-c: requires Medical-3 skill per 120 persons (Doctor skill level)
• Type V-d: requires Medical-3 skill per 120 persons (Doctor skill level)
• Type V-e: requires Medical-4 skill per 120 persons (Specialist skill level)

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As a side note for those credit clipping merchants who shave the plastic off the rims of the credits in their purse ...

The Cr2000 for 2 person/weeks of starship stateroom life support equates to the revenue earned from 2 tons of cargo transport (Cr2000 per jump). This means that a Type V-c Environmental Control system (at 2 tons of Laboratory space required per person) winds up being very nearly break even when it comes to balancing costs and revenues on the balance sheet.

• 2 tons less cargo capacity = Cr2000 of revenue potential lost
• 2 weeks of 1 person life support = Cr2000 of overhead cost avoided
• 2000 - 2000 = 0

It's not a PERFECT break even though, because the Laboratory space allocation increases the cost of ship construction and annual overhauls (slightly) and you also need to have a Medic-2 aboard rather than just a Medic-1 (which will cost an extra Cr200 per month in crew salary) ... but it's reasonably close to a break even proposition. Note also that the "exchange" of cargo space (generating revenue) for laboratory space (mitigating life support costs) is also contingent upon there being 3rd party freight wanting to rent that transport capacity, so under circumstances where the cargo hold is less than 100%, the Type V-c regenerative life support actually edges slightly ahead on the annual finances balance sheet report.

And that's assuming that stateroom life support costs never vary from Cr2000 per person per 2 weeks ... which isn't necessarily an operative assumption in all regions of space. In extensively settled locations, it can be a safe assumption, but out on the frontier or in star systems where habitable biome comes at a premium price ... it might not be. Even in the Spinward Marches, there are plenty of "local stories" in the wiki for worlds that "charge more" than is usual for various support services, such as life support and fuel. Talos/District 268/Spinward Marches, for example, charges hefty fees for wilderness refueling in the world's oceans (no in-system gas giant, wilderness refueling is usually free, and the star system sits on the Spinward Main with no alternative pass through for J1 ships)!



Speaking just for myself (of course), I would like to think that the Quality of Life aboard a starship with a Type V-c Environmental Control system would be higher than that found living (and working) aboard a starship with a more standard Type III or even Type IV Environmental Control setup. Of course, the quality of life experience aboard starships is something that CT completely glossed over and only became a factor in much later editions of Traveller (Mongoose in particular?) ... but it's those little details that make spinning out stories as Travellers that much more interesting.

And besides ... Annic Nova as published had a regenerative life support system setup for the ship, but no accompanying rules for how to duplicate/port that kind of life support system into other ship designs.

 

[kilemall]

That's the thing about life support, why is it so expensive?

You could light an oxygen candle, send the scrubbers to dry cleaning, or if it includes food, stock up with ramen.

And how much does it cost of have a cat onboard?

A thought that came up- contamination across multiple worlds could be a huge problem, doing a thorough sterilization per trip could be a big part of that cost.

I don’t believe that was a consideration as to why that original number, just a justification if you want it.

Another thought is that looking at supply pricing like we would expect may be more difficult on different worlds- water is low or shipped in, atmosphere is tainted, non-industrial worlds cost more for reprocessing/filters, food especially for non-ag worlds is costly, etc. The high price smooths out any of those bumps and provides a consistent cost to make operating easier.

Finally, the high price covers both medical level quality control and installation/maintenance.

Buying cheap will probably work 99 times out of 100, but that 100th works out to very uncomfortable or lethal.

Doing supplies in beltstrike bulk might work out more cheaply, but it doesn’t cover the extra work in doing that maintenance. Larger ships may have enough engineers to take on this with present crewing, but should probably stress lower crewed ships to do or maybe even require an extra engineer per 1000 tons.

 

[Grav_Moped]

how much does it cost of have a cat onboard?

Cr2000/month plus salary. He'll want the largest stateroom, of course.

 

[Condottiere]

I was thinking more of the ones that consume mice.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I was thinking more of the ones that consume mice.

Cats are about 1/16 the mass of a human, round up for scale inefficiency -- say 1/10 of standard life support costs.

Requires Medic-1 on hand, and medical supplies including 500ml of Type O- blood for each time you need to stuff the cat into its vacc suit.

 

[Condottiere]

How much does lasagna in bulk cost?

 

[infojunky]

How much does lasagna in bulk cost?

As parts or complete?

 

[Condottiere]

I guess in parts, since you could have the robochef bake it.

I speculate that one made out of recycled materials might prompt a rampage.