mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Which would only work if the game designers didn't keep changing the setting to match their new rules.
Tigress class dreadnaughts
- Thread starter rancke
- Start date
There are two ways to reconcile setting and rules, to change the setting to match the rules or to change the rules to match the setting. Personally I prefer the second option, but I could live with the first. However, I'm unaware that either have been attempted. Combat rules have been changed to make for better combats and the OTU setting has been changed to fit the new author's ideas, but never as far as I know for the purpose of making either match the other.
I guess we can at least agree that it's a big mess.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Yup, it's a mess sure enough
I would love to see a definitive setting guide, either for T5 or MgT. If it means retconning away stuff so be it (the sudden 'empress wave was known about during MT' retcon being a prime example).
If TNE and T1248 are to remain canonical then other retcons may be necessary.
I would love to see a definitive setting guide, either for T5 or MgT. If it means retconning away stuff so be it (the sudden 'empress wave was known about during MT' retcon being a prime example).
If TNE and T1248 are to remain canonical then other retcons may be necessary.
Yup, it's a mess sure enough
If TNE and T1248 are to remain canonical then other retcons may be necessary.
A mess, yes. We agree.
Rules should only be changed to enhance game play or mimic reality.
TNE was written with less input from Marc, as I understand it (that was about the time he left GDW, as i recall). T1248 was written to fill the gapping holes in background so the universe could continue. Some of us didn't like it because it was like using a sledge hammer for wood nails. In the end, what is canonical is up to Marc alone.
Back to the Tigress.
These canonical fighting ships were not the best designs. However, when the neighbors have 30kdt to 100kdt "feral cats" cruisers, a 500kdt "African Lion" battleship makes a statement.
Marc was doing Europa board games for GDW during the TNE development.
I'm forced to agree with Mike - the OTU was built with (and fairly consistent with) HG2E, and starts really in 1981. Pre-81 adventures don't mesh well with the post-81 ones; Bks 1-4 aren't strongly OTU aimed; Supplements 1 & 2 are pretty generic, too (1001 Characters, Animal Encounters).
But once we get to Bk5, it starts talking about the 3I. Sup 3 is the Marches, and Sup 4 is Citizens, which while almost generic, includes a few OTU touches.
I'm forced to agree with Mike - the OTU was built with (and fairly consistent with) HG2E, and starts really in 1981. Pre-81 adventures don't mesh well with the post-81 ones; Bks 1-4 aren't strongly OTU aimed; Supplements 1 & 2 are pretty generic, too (1001 Characters, Animal Encounters).
But once we get to Bk5, it starts talking about the 3I. Sup 3 is the Marches, and Sup 4 is Citizens, which while almost generic, includes a few OTU touches.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Marc left GDW when - '91 wasn't it? The GDW europa series ended in '87.
TNE was '93, we can absolve Marc of all blame for it
Back to the Tigress, the main design flaw is the lack of jump fuel (and a factor 7 meson screen but that should do against the Zhodani). Give it drop tanks and support vessels (tenders/tankers/drop tank carriers) and you can fix it.
A more radical redesign would be to drop the jump fuel down even further so it can carry a few meson sleds.
For a really gonzo design give it a jump 6 drive but only enough fuel for jump 1 or 2, assume drop tanks for fuel which it doesn't drop during peacetime.
Oh, and only assign your best personal, the Tigress batons should be elite.
With these changes a batron of Tigress class ships is almost a fleet unto itself.
TNE was '93, we can absolve Marc of all blame for it
Back to the Tigress, the main design flaw is the lack of jump fuel (and a factor 7 meson screen but that should do against the Zhodani). Give it drop tanks and support vessels (tenders/tankers/drop tank carriers) and you can fix it.
A more radical redesign would be to drop the jump fuel down even further so it can carry a few meson sleds.
For a really gonzo design give it a jump 6 drive but only enough fuel for jump 1 or 2, assume drop tanks for fuel which it doesn't drop during peacetime.
Oh, and only assign your best personal, the Tigress batons should be elite.
With these changes a batron of Tigress class ships is almost a fleet unto itself.
I would start by reducing the jump rating to 3. ISTR being told that that would bring it in line with the available jump fuel. Or am I wrong?
Drop tanks are a new invention and were still being evaluated when the Tigress class was designed (I'm not at all sure they're not still being evaluated in 1105). Besides, I'm not sure the logistics involved in hauling 100,000T drop tanks around is all that economically feasible.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I think the IN budget can stretch to it. We know that the IN has 1,000,000t tenders that can cart around 50kt monitors and riders, just use them to carry drop tanks and refuelling lighters.
The gazelle is an old design that uses drop tanks, so the military version of the technology shouldn't be an issue.
If the IN want a dreadnaught then it should make use of every design trick you can get away with to maximise its potential, jump 6 engines, internal fuel for jump 2, drop tanks for strategic mobility, a couple of 19kt battle riders as sub-craft and you have a dreadnaught.
The elite crew the main thing, it would offset the size mod against regular or even veteran Zho forces.
The gazelle is an old design that uses drop tanks, so the military version of the technology shouldn't be an issue.
If the IN want a dreadnaught then it should make use of every design trick you can get away with to maximise its potential, jump 6 engines, internal fuel for jump 2, drop tanks for strategic mobility, a couple of 19kt battle riders as sub-craft and you have a dreadnaught.
The elite crew the main thing, it would offset the size mod against regular or even veteran Zho forces.
Perhaps, perhaps not. I'm not saying that the IN can't build ships and drop tanks to service 200 500,000T battleships. I'm saying you need a LOT of ships and drop tanks to keep 200 500,000T battleships supplied.
I think the Gazelle class IS the test ship. Or one of them.
Also, when you retcon a setting detail to correct a discrepancy, you should, IMO, try to do it with the smallest change that will work. Putting drop tanks on any existing design would be a major change.
Hans
I cannot disagree with much of the above...
TNE and MT before it were attempts to "reset the CT" with new ideas. I like both of them, but "mind the gap". My involvement was purely as a tester/fan/friend. I had left Bloomington/Normal, IL in 89' so there wasn't much time to keep track of Marc's involvement. I'd helped Lester on testing 2300AD prior to the first downsizing, but Loren had stated testers/writers were not needed for Traveller, so i had wrote for T2k. Actually, a lot of CT products had been already out. So, design logic of Tigress class a Fighting Ship was long before.
(I think that's a long winded version of "Yep I guess so."
Back to the Tigress:
I did a T20 redesign of Tigress 10+ years ago. A lot of the J4 warships were probably out of TCS to stay competitive. I don't know if dropping it would make a successful vessel. However, compared to the peer cultures...probably.
Two points. I implement "1/2 jump fuel" home rule at TL16 which is a game changer for resources. Also, I never saw the need for throw away fuel tanks. Perhaps a shorter life span, but if needs to be a choice on the part of the skipper. These are canonical changes, purely MTU decisions.
For OTU, Tigress could drop a hundred fighters and still be effective.
TNE and MT before it were attempts to "reset the CT" with new ideas. I like both of them, but "mind the gap". My involvement was purely as a tester/fan/friend. I had left Bloomington/Normal, IL in 89' so there wasn't much time to keep track of Marc's involvement. I'd helped Lester on testing 2300AD prior to the first downsizing, but Loren had stated testers/writers were not needed for Traveller, so i had wrote for T2k.
Actually, a lot of CT products had been already out. So, design logic of Tigress class a Fighting Ship was long before.(I think that's a long winded version of "Yep I guess so."
Back to the Tigress:
I did a T20 redesign of Tigress 10+ years ago. A lot of the J4 warships were probably out of TCS to stay competitive. I don't know if dropping it would make a successful vessel. However, compared to the peer cultures...probably.
Two points. I implement "1/2 jump fuel" home rule at TL16 which is a game changer for resources. Also, I never saw the need for throw away fuel tanks. Perhaps a shorter life span, but if needs to be a choice on the part of the skipper. These are canonical changes, purely MTU decisions.
For OTU, Tigress could drop a hundred fighters and still be effective.
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Tigress is impressive, but if they stick to the High Guard view of meson fire, I don't see it as a ship that was intended to stand in a line with a hundred other dreadnoughts giving and taking heavy meson fire. Seems like a dreadful waste of those fighter squadrons, for one thing.
Rather, I see a Tigress squadron as a pocket fleet unto itself: large numbers of missile batteries, large numbers of fighters, the ability to come into orbit around a world and make them very, very sorry for being on the wrong side of the argument. With the thing costing up to three times as much as the more typical DNs and no less vulnerable to meson fire for the extra bucks, it's clearly intended more as a planetary bombardment platform and terror weapon than as an opponent for other dreadnoughts.
Funny, I never noticed the big ox was short on fuel.
Rather, I see a Tigress squadron as a pocket fleet unto itself: large numbers of missile batteries, large numbers of fighters, the ability to come into orbit around a world and make them very, very sorry for being on the wrong side of the argument. With the thing costing up to three times as much as the more typical DNs and no less vulnerable to meson fire for the extra bucks, it's clearly intended more as a planetary bombardment platform and terror weapon than as an opponent for other dreadnoughts.
Funny, I never noticed the big ox was short on fuel.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
As I recall Meson T destructive potential, why aren't dreadnoughts 300KT to absorb the blow? The follow on to the Tigress should be that size, and split off carrier operations to a more suitable platform.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Minsk_aircraft_carrier.jpg
It mimics certain multipurpose Russian carriers. In fact, Marc has utilized many things Russian in CT.
I think you're on the right track. I've always thought that way about Tigress class. Except, I disagree that splitting operations is the appropriate answer. Tigress is multi-mission. She can hang out indefinitely in 5 Sisters, run with the punches in various fleet types during the 5th Frontier War.
The other option is to deploy them with fuel tenders involved.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Flight Deck Cruisers were not built for a reason. Ships attempting to many roles become excellent at none.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_deck_cruiser
Tonnage costs are wasted in armoring carriers, which operate in the reserve. In the Tigress, it can be argued that "otherwise wasted space" was utilized as fighter capacity. For design purposes, or mission, this just reflects the initial poor design of the Tigress.
You're thinking about the critical rolls. The deadly aspect of meson spinals is the extra standard damage rolls they gain, which are unaffected by size or armor.
A Zho light cruiser with a G, for example, gets to roll 8 times. With that many chances, there's about a 60% chance on any given hit of shattering the opponent's fuel tanks and taking it out of the game that way. It has more trouble penetrating the meson screen, but when you realize that you can field ten or more of the little ships for the cost of one 500 Kt superdreadnought (or 6+ for a 300), that dreadnought-size ships are just plain easier to hit to begin with, that Zhos are going to go for many small ships anyway since their meson screens don't tend to have any effect on the Impies' big mesons, and that in consequence Impies will tend to face more spinals than they bring to the field in any roughly equal battle, you see a problem developing for the big ships.
And, there's no going home from a shattered-fuel-tank hit - you hope your side wins, or you start setting scuttling charges. Service on a dreadnought's a good way to end up dead or in a POW camp. (Which in turn means the crew-quality solution only works if you're winning and can end the war before attrition become an issue.)
They stay within tight budgets, which often requires multi-role ships! What gamers tend to forget is that if you're mimicking a reality, all elements need to be addressed. All ships have flaws, every one of them. A good captain and crew can address those flaws.
Yes. A poorly addressed fleet leaves any ship as prey for the enemy.
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
See, I've always thought that the Tigress and it's many extra systems is a reflection of the traveller design system. Whoever sat down to build the ship In Real Life started form the position of "i want a 500 KDt Death Star".
Once he'd added in the drives, fuel, spinal, armour, 2.4 metric shedloads of missle bays, and so on, he found he still had a 100,000 Dt plus of space to fill up. Now, he has two options: make the ship smaller (which would mean re-doing all those size based sums and effectivly starting form scratch), or stuffing in things to make up the space. The latter is the quicker and eaiser option, so he starts wacking in fighter bays, and barracks for a marine battlion, and so on till he's filled that space up.
However, ignoring that for now, i'd aggree that the tigress, as designed, is some sort of "space control ship", designed for semi-independant operations and to showcase the Imperiums might in the border worlds.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Good luck hitting with any of those G spinals, you will need a 9+.
Good luck penetrating the factor 7 screen, you need a 10+ for that.
Put another way you have a 5% chance to kill my tigress, 10% if you can get to close range.
Meanwhile your TL14 Zho light cruisers are how big?
19,000t I'll bet, lets give them a factor 6 screen.
My tigress has a 28% chance to kill you, 58% if at close range.
Good luck penetrating the factor 7 screen, you need a 10+ for that.
Put another way you have a 5% chance to kill my tigress, 10% if you can get to close range.
Meanwhile your TL14 Zho light cruisers are how big?
19,000t I'll bet, lets give them a factor 6 screen.
My tigress has a 28% chance to kill you, 58% if at close range.
And you can get, what, 20 of those light cruisers for the cost of one Tigress?
So 20 light cruisers vs. a Tigress. On the first round the 20 cruisers have a 64% chance of killing the Tigress and the Tigress has a 28% chance of killing ONE of those 20 cruisers.
This does not bode at all well for the Tigress. It looks to me like we have an exchange rate of LESS than one cruiser per Tigress.
I wonder how those cruisers would fare against one Tigress worth of optimized Imperial heavy cruisers? A good deal worse, I suspect.
Hans
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
My 240 missile bays (bearing) are going to make a fair old mess of quite a few of your cruisers too.
Another redesign option would be to replace the fighter squadrons with ten 1500ton missile boat.
If you want to make a fleet within a fleet its perfectly doable
Another redesign option would be to replace the fighter squadrons with ten 1500ton missile boat.
If you want to make a fleet within a fleet its perfectly doable
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