You forgot Female Asian in Comfortable Shoes.
Topics Enjoying 30 Years of Discussion
- Thread starter robject
- Start date
Wouldn't that fall under Gazelle-class Escorts?
I understand from your words (unless irony is involved) that you know something about sensors, and that's probably more than myself, as I only know what I learned in games, but, it's not the usual practice to begin with passive sensors and then go to active as needed?
If so, I guess IR band and neutrino would be the main long range ship detectors (though neutrinos can be minimized, as Spinward Flow says, by reducing the power output), while radar, ladar and densiometers (this latter being also passive, but, as I understand, more directional and short ranged) to get a clearer picture and pinpoint...
Of course, but I meant when not actively in combat (so when you can find enemies trying to be stealthy).
My guess here is no one tries to play stealthy when enemy is in combat, and so actively searching and pinpointing enemies, but while in routinee situations, trying to hit them off guard, so it's in those situations I was thinking about.
Using your active sensors means telling everyone you're there, something I don't expect many fleet units to do, unless they want their presence known (something not usual in combat zones).
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Once combat is engaged, the value of stealth diminishes IF the enemy can get a sensor lock on you. The "value" of stealth is to make that sensor targeting lock more difficult, causing attacks (if any are made) to Miss their targets (you).
BEFORE combat begins ... however ... stealth can be useful for making surprise attacks (think camouflaged snipers) when the enemy doesn't even know you're there before you shoot (value of surprise). This is why I'm thinking that missile turret armed fighters with a bridge and a model/2 computer are probably the closest you can get to a stealthy drift fighter under CT design rules (with a little more creative thinking beyond the mere letter of those rules), partly because missiles prefer long range shooting (close range is bad for staying undetected) and the missiles require EP=0 to shoot. Also, those missiles can be nuclear tipped so as to inflict REAL bombardment damage ...
Depends, consider a Carrier it is lite up like Christmas Tree, now add in two or three E2c’s and you have an entire ocean under observation, stealth in this case are the electronic warfare packages on the escorts each able to mimic the carrier. To attack the Carrier you need to spoof it’s detection again a number of choices are available usually combination of Electronic Warfare and Munitions. The point here is passive was pointless, the controlling aspect is Electronic Warfare. Note modern Surface Warfare is probably a better model than Sub Warfare.
In Traveller terms I tend to use detection as described in CT. Which gives a dichotomy of Active vs. Passive.
Note for gaming purposes I generally don’t worry about the specific instrument/bandwidth my ships have beyond if they are active or passive. It’s too much like work.
Sure, i npeacetime, where the main mission for a Carrier is as derratant by making its presence known
Not so sure in wartime, where the E-2 mission is precisely to have the active (and passive) sensors center not to be the carrrier (aside fro mthe improved performance height gives to them), and Carrier itself is likely to shut down its own active sensors, so that it is harder to detect.
At least that's how we used to play Harpoon...
I guess you didn't play MT, where the sensors are more detailed...
Rules don't support this (at least in MT ,where senors are more detailed)...
in MT times, I designed this defense/powersat drone (double pourpose, mostly anti-piracy and small raiders, not anti major fleet units). As told in the post, its main advantage is suposed to be hard to detect, as it emits no neutrinos and its heat signature, being close to the planet, is probably masked by the planet.
By using MT rules, this does not woek, as (IMHO a rules flawl, probably this case not being thought about) the passive sensors make it simple to detect it (usual DM s for distance, computer relative size and skills) to detect it anyway ,and even to pinpoit it quite farther away than its weapons (fusioin gun) may be bought to bear (plaetary range, so 50000 km ),.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
I'm talking CT.
You're talking MT.
No wonder we don't see eye to eye.
We aren't even starting with the same understanding of how the universe WORKS.
Just figured that was worth pointing out.
Right. CT rules are quite hanwaving about sensors, and on them stealth is even less possible: if you're in range, you're detected. That's why I talk about MT where they are more detailed.
After all ,this is not labeled as a version dependant thread, and we're talking about stealth in space in general, not in any specific version...
Yea, the Carrier most definitely is not lit up like a Christmas tree. It's a dark hole in the water. The pickets and screening ships are the ones shouting and searching. If anything is lit up like a Christmas tree and saying "Look at me, I'm an aircraft carrier", that's likely a destroyer trying to attract cruise missiles.
But if you're not in range, you're not detected. You're not even on the map. A military sensor can crawl right up to just outside the 1500mm range band on a civilian ship and they wouldn't know boo. 1500mm is "point blank" range in book 2. It's not missile range, but there's nothing stopping an attacker from pouring on the laser fire right away.
So, in that sense, you can have a fleet in the outer system and no one would be the wiser. You can also have pirates nearby. Even with civilian sensors on the pirate, you can't see them until they see you, so it's easy to fall in to a trap. Within 2-3 turns, a 2G pirate ship will be within missile range against a 1G trader. Within 4-5 the pirate is on top of you. It takes 16 turns to get to 100D from an Earth size world.
Desperate situation indeed.
Sure, but it will not know about you either, so it would be as ready for combat as you are...
True again, but this same pirate will need some more time to be on the top of you at a relative vector of 0 (s oable to board you). otherwise, it will close you, fire you and overshoot you, something I guess it's not the pirate's intent.
And more time needed to board you is more time for any patrolling ship to react and come to your help...
I suspect a number of sensor-related conversations with Traveller start with different basic assumptions, including ruleset...
They could be warned at the Starport by a confederate.
Either way, there's plenty of reaction time.
They have a singular goal of preventing you from jumping. They have all the time in the world to board you once they prevent that. It would be a curious thing to see if they could board you, take over your ship, and prevent jump within the time frame. The 16 turn run to 100D is about 4.5 hours.
How long does it take to breach a Free Trader once you've matched course and are knocking on the door? How long to cut through an airlock?
From a "Snapshot" point of view, 4.5 hours is an eternity. How long is a Snapshot turn, 30s? That's a lot of turns of personal combat.
Well, this is the eternal debate, right?
We as players project reality on to the rules, but the rules represent their own reality that we have to cope with.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"
Here you assume they are not only told by their confederate when they leave the spaceport ,but also where are they heading to...
Assuming no patrling ships/SDBs are there...
The probelm is not this one, as you say, it would take short. The problem is how much will it take to match vectors for boarding. this is measured in 20 min turns...
I would not say "your reality", but "your way to adapt rules to reality (as we know it)". Otherways, agreed (though I'd also change "substitute" by "sugest").
And I forgot, once the ship is taken, as it would probably be unable to jump as a priza too, how long would it take to transfer the cargo to the pirates ship?
All in all, I guess the possibility for the SDBs appearing before the pirates can run away is quite high...
And they'd better take the right ship, because if the cargo results to be of low value, the whole operation would be a fiasco even if everything else went perfect...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Harpoon.
As I recall, I just shot a lot of HARM missiles at the Soviets.
As I recall, I just shot a lot of HARM missiles at the Soviets.
That is the fact. One of the reasons I try to keep things as simple as possible.
