Trader sizes

[rancke]

The grain trade from the Black Sea region to Athens, the Roman grain trade from Egypt to Rome on board ships specifically built for the trade, the wool trade between England and the Low Countries, the naval stores and mast trade from the Baltic region and the North American colonies to Great Britain and the rest of Europe, the sugar trade from the West Indies to Europe, the spice trade from the Dutch East Indies to Holland and then to Europe, the tobacco and cotton trade from the South to Great Britain, the Tea trade from China and India to Great Britain and Europe.

All of that was pure speculation?

Oh, and then there is the trade between the colonies and Great Britain in custom-built ships. It has been estimated that 1/3 of all British merchant ships at the time of the Revolution had been built for English shipowners in the colonies.

That was speculation too?

Depends on whether the goods were owned by the same people who owned the ships. If they were, it was speculation; if they weren't, it was freight, as the owner of the goods paid the owner of the ship to carry the goods as freight and bore any losses and kept all the gains.

I'm pretty sure the China tea trade was speculation. AFAIK the tea was bought in China by the East India Company and was auctioned off to wholesalers upon arrival in London.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Two points:

1. yeah, that was hard to read, but I just highlighted the text to get white letters on a dark background.

2. If CT LBB3 (I think, I use The Traveller Book) is any indication, then the Traveller universe is ripe for speculative trade based on the trade modifiers alone ... a -2 on the purchase price and a +2 on the sale price are going to make a profit very likely. That is not unlike most of the pre-modern trade.

Sure the Molases-rum-slaves golden triangle of trade, or the opium-tea-spice-wool trade routes of the age of sail could hit a short-term market glut for some unlucky ship owner.

However, a business model based on long proven trade codes and a history of profitable runs seems like a reasonable business plan to convince a bank to lend money to an experienced Merchant officer (that may be known to the bank and come with letters of recommendation from a major shipping line) to buy his own ship in both the age of sail and Traveller.

In the age of Tea Clippers, it was not unknown for a new ship to be paid off with a single good trip. I have experienced the same with Computers or Radioactives speculating with a free trader.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

If you are going to play with your post's type, could you maybe give some thought to those of us who might have not perfect vision? I had to copy your post into my word processing program to read it.

Yeah, gray on white is not a good combo - even for those of us with pretty good eyesight. :alpha:

 

[Enoki]

Think about how if the Italian Peninsula had had the semaphore towers in place that a few romans thought of but didn't bother building... they'd have been able to up short range demand trade. Semaphore isn't as good as telegraphy, but it's good enough.

The Heliograph was better than semaphore, in daylight better than a telegraph, and it too worked at the speed of light....

http://huachuca-www.army.mil/pages/history/Rolak.html

As you can see these were used in the Southwest US in the 1890's and could transmit a message over hundreds of miles in a matter of a few minutes.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/signalmirror/8328272153/

 

[BytePro]

Sorry if the color combo was hard to read - changed it. [Hardly an inconsideration on my part, though - grey on light color is the standard to de-emphasize text. Heck, my browser is using it right now in the address bar. ]

Re: Trader sizes and bank loans - tramp traders could also see utility along the lines of liberty ships, and so, aside from stimulating trade, subsidizes (or some other form of coercive motivation) might also encourage banks to lend money for tramp ship construction. A small rider in the mortgage of any such ship might include the option of government to commandeer the vessel (and enlist its crew) in declared emergencies and outbreaks of war...

 

[Darkwing]

Far future tech, my system was the ship's transponder included a provision for coding in the loan and payment information, so that any customs official at any halfway decent starport could "chirp" the thing and find out if you were up to date on payments or paid off. Could you fool it? A mobster with the right connections could, but I don't see the average shipmaster being any better at it than the average modern is at hacking his own bank account to alter the balance.

I do that, also, but because it is possible to find outlaw shipyards (Thanks to Biran Daley's Han Solo novels), or for pirates to chop it up, I figure the banks would also want to chip the signatory to the loan. How hard would it be to land in the bush and take the air/raft into town? This way, you can get a line on the man you want even if his ship is not at the port. KH also has a portable tracer that bounty hunters and LEOs can get that will pick up the signal. Which makes it harder for an honest ship's captain to sneak around doing something he shouldn't...
and a survivor of a ship taken by piracy would report it to the law, so his insurance would pay off the loan, and the bank would remove the implant. If, for some perfectly understandable reason, he didn't report it, the implant will make it easier to find him so he can testify or be tried.

 

[Carlobrand]

Never said all. Said dominant. Large difference.

And the Roman period, we do have good documentation that most of it was in fact speculation. The ship would be sent with a mixture of coin and goods for sale at the other end, and buy goods known to be desired back home.

Was that by the ship master, or was the ship hired by by a rich speculator to transport his agent and the money and bring back the acquisitions? Or did the rich speculator own the ship and hire crews and agents while he stayed home?

 

[Carlobrand]

Think about how if the Italian Peninsula had had the semaphore towers in place that a few romans thought of but didn't bother building... they'd have been able to up short range demand trade. Semaphore isn't as good as telegraphy, but it's good enough.

As I understand it, sea trade was actually a good deal cheaper than overland trade. Perhaps there just wasn't sufficient motivation for that kind of communication system.

 

[HG_B]

aramis, was it just a legend that the Roman's used watch tower fires to send messages around the rim of the Med.?

 

[Timerover51]

aramis, was it just a legend that the Roman's used watch tower fires to send messages around the rim of the Med.?

I understand that the question is addressed to Aramis, and hopefully, he will not take it amiss if I venture to answer the question, given that I am a military historian and have studied the Roman military to some degree.

The Romans used watch tower signal fires along Hadrian's Wall in northern England to signal barbarian excursions over the wall and attacks on the wall. They also appear to have used them in the coastal watch towers in the north of England to warn of attacks by the Picts from Scotland and Ireland.

To the best of my knowledge, the Romans did not have such a system in the Mediterranean. along the Byzantines did use watch towers along the Persian Border, and once the Muslims appeared in strength in the Mediterranean, along the southwest coast of Anatolia.

 

[aramis]

aramis, was it just a legend that the Roman's used watch tower fires to send messages around the rim of the Med.?

Around the Med? Legend. Around parts of the Italian Peninsula, true. Parts of Gaul, Iberia and Brittain, true. At least according to the various sources I've seen. Semaphore would have been a safer and longer-term solution, as well as potentially longer range due to higher towers - less work to lug crew and fuel up, so a higher tower is practical.

The network was never very complete.

 

[aramis]

Depends on whether the goods were owned by the same people who owned the ships. If they were, it was speculation; if they weren't, it was freight, as the owner of the goods paid the owner of the ship to carry the goods as freight and bore any losses and kept all the gains.

I'm pretty sure the China tea trade was speculation. AFAIK the tea was bought in China by the East India Company and was auctioned off to wholesalers upon arrival in London.


Hans

Actually, if the agent charters the boat, it's still speculation, not freight.

 

[Timerover51]

I got my 4 volume set of the History of Merchant Shipping and Ancient Commerce delivered today. Looks quite interesting. Have to see what it useful to post.

 

[Carlobrand]

I got my 4 volume set of the History of Merchant Shipping and Ancient Commerce delivered today. Looks quite interesting. Have to see what it useful to post.

Is also available on-line for free as a PDF. Not as good as the feel and smell of old paper, but it'll have to do.

 

[aramis]

Is also available on-line for free as a PDF. Not as good as the feel and smell of old paper, but it'll have to do.

:devil:As long as it's ©1928 or earlier... Please don't tease us like this... LINK TO IT!!! :devil:

 

[Timerover51]

Is also available on-line for free as a PDF. Not as good as the feel and smell of old paper, but it'll have to do.

Mine is actually a reprint. The 1874 edition was a tad too expensive to get. I prefer hard copy, and then I can take it places much easier than my laptop, such as my local coffee and donut shop.

 

[Carlobrand]

:devil:As long as it's ©1928 or earlier... Please don't tease us like this... LINK TO IT!!! :devil:

Oop, sorry.

http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan01lind
http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan02lind
http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan03lind
http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan04lind

Archive.org is a great place for really old books. The old references, often their science is out of date, but a lot of times they give you details and tidbits overlooked or completely forgotten by modern references. Got some more recent sci fi there too, some of the stuff that's no longer under copyright for one reason or another.

Mine is actually a reprint. The 1874 edition was a tad too expensive to get. I prefer hard copy, and then I can take it places much easier than my laptop, such as my local coffee and donut shop.

Yeah, me too, but I'm putting one kid through college and two to follow, so free is good.

 

[Timerover51]

Oop, sorry.

http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan01lind
http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan02lind
http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan03lind
http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan04lind

Archive.org is a great place for really old books. The old references, often their science is out of date, but a lot of times they give you details and tidbits overlooked or completely forgotten by modern references. Got some more recent sci fi there too, some of the stuff that's no longer under copyright for one reason or another.



Yeah, me too, but I'm putting one kid through college and two to follow, so free is good.

I have a son and a daughter presently in a private college, and I live on my army disability pay.

 

[HG_B]

Around the Med? Legend. Around parts of the Italian Peninsula, true. Parts of Gaul, Iberia and Brittain, true. At least according to the various sources I've seen. Semaphore would have been a safer and longer-term solution, as well as potentially longer range due to higher towers - less work to lug crew and fuel up, so a higher tower is practical.

The network was never very complete.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Timerover51]

Oop, sorry.

http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan01lind
http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan02lind
http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan03lind
http://archive.org/details/historyofmerchan04lind

Archive.org is a great place for really old books. The old references, often their science is out of date, but a lot of times they give you details and tidbits overlooked or completely forgotten by modern references. Got some more recent sci fi there too, some of the stuff that's no longer under copyright for one reason or another.

Going through it, starting with volume 1. I hope that his trade data is more accurate than his data on ancient ships. And claiming that an Englishman deciphered Egyptian Hieroglyphics instead of Champollion is really a bit of extreme British chauvinism. Against that, an American author that used him thought that he was fair to the US. Have to see.