Rules Only: Traveller "deadly" Combat Rules discussion

[atpollard]

On a last note, I kind of thought the opening line referred to Prior History when creating a Character, which is deadly in it's own way.

No argument from me on that point.

I just kept hearing that Traveller Combat was so deadly and I just accepted it as fact ... because EVERYBODY said so. I never really encountered that many gunfights in Traveller games except when deliberately playing a group of battledress armed MERCS where THAT was the whole point. When I started to look hard at the actual numbers ... Traveller was better than a 1-3 Level D&D module ... which came as a surprise to ME.

I am not good at keeping my thoughts to myself, so I started a topic to share them.

 

[atpollard]

Outside of Psionics & High Tech Medicine, it takes awhile to heal any injuries. The worse the injuries, the longer the recovery. And I'm not too sure where to find that Raise Dead Spell/Item, even the Black Market in the dark shadows of the Star Port/Town might say they have something, but can you really trust it?

A gap in the rules that should have been filled after the initial release in magazines and supplements ... the Sci-Fi tropes certainly exist.

 

[kilemall]

That's interesting, and between that, and random stats, it makes survivability a much greater gamble. That really drives the playstyle, I suppose.

That’s really the choice here- pulp hero, gritty military/survival, hard sci-fi, dystopian, etc.

 

[Captain Bob of the LEXX]

Honestly, I generally reverse those numbers... At the 7 point level I have characters rolling to remain on their feet... Similar to MT's Life Points...

That's an interesting take also. I was taken with the MT life points also. Your reverse points total bears a game or two. Thanks.

 

[bookwyrm]

Combat in any game could be potentially deadly.

D&D you could run into 3:1 odds or more enemies against you, or enemies resistant or immune to many of your attacks, or some enemy with a difficult weakness to find, or get caught fighting in a city you shouldn't be fighting in that has the death penalty, or an enemy with a 'special' attack you can't easily defend against, death traps in a combat zone... I keep thinking of ways to die in combat...

James Bond had many ways to die in a fight, and if you didn't have 'Hero Points' (I think that's what they were called) you could stay dead...

Star Wars and Traveller are somewhat similar, they both have many ways do die in combat. Characters are like low level D&D characters facing hordes of powerful enemies beyond their abilities to survive. Or fighting in an environment requiring Vacc suits or Environment Protection Suits and there is a puncture/rip/malfunction before the fight is over, automatic & energy weapons pumping out massive amounts of damage, space ship combat in space and the hull is busted or the engine takes a last deadly hit, some huge creature with very thick skin/fur lots of sharp claws/fangs and a grudge against your party, your party is at the top of a kill list for some group for whatever reason and they have a lot of minions to throw at you, you compliment an alien being and they take it as a mortal insult and the fight for your life begins...

(these are the 4 first rpg's I played as a teen with my friends)

 

[Badenov]

Combat in any game could be potentially deadly.

D&D you could run into 3:1 odds or more enemies against you, or enemies resistant or immune to many of your attacks, or some enemy with a difficult weakness to find, or get caught fighting in a city you shouldn't be fighting in that has the death penalty, or an enemy with a 'special' attack you can't easily defend against, death traps in a combat zone... I keep thinking of ways to die in combat...

The key word is 'potentially', and it's a huge matter of degree. Challenge Ratings in D&D 3e went a long way toward reducing lethality due to DMs not understanding how tough monsters were and players not understanding how tough encounters were. The difference in potential between a 'Challenge Rating equal to Party Level' encounter in D&D and Traveller or Boot Hill (where -any- hit has about a 22% chance to instakill you) with little to no guidance on how to make encounters hard or easy, plus the flat Traveller health stats vs D&D's HP_per_level to pad characters, makes Traveller noticably more lethal than games like D&D (although not more lethal than the old Boot Hill, good grief!)

James Bond had many ways to die in a fight, and if you didn't have 'Hero Points' (I think that's what they were called) you could stay dead...

Was that the old game with percentile rolls and 'quality ratings' for degree of success? I had it when I was like 12, but never got to play it with anyone.

Star Wars and Traveller are somewhat similar, they both have many ways do die in combat. Characters are like low level D&D characters facing hordes of powerful enemies beyond their abilities to survive. Or fighting in an environment requiring Vacc suits or Environment Protection Suits and there is a puncture/rip/malfunction before the fight is over,...

Star Wars and Traveller are similar because they both feature combat in outer space, adding vacuum to the list of things that can kill you. If you're travelling in D&D and a troll hits your wagon with a club, you're not looking at instant death (again, depending on relative Challenge Rating, but at least not due to asphyxiation). I don't know if the newer Star Wars game has levels or CRs, the last Star Wars game I played was WEG, and it had no particular balace mechanism other than the DM feeling fair or cruel.

True WEG story: my brash pilot was flying overwatch in a starfighter while party works on mission planetside. Planetary forces scramble TL7-ish fighters. Fighters fire missiles at me. I dodge with ease. Turns out they're firing nuclear cruise missiles (we were 16, how much did we know about nuclear weapons?) and I died anyhow. You know the expression 'close enough only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades'? The old addition '...and nuclear weapons' is a thing.

So my point is that game balance is entirely in the hands of the DM in -any- game, but games like D&D have a lot more guidance to prevent (or at least identify) encounters that will kill the party. Reducing accidental lethality goes a long way toward reducing the overall lethality of a game. Players starting a fight with 1HP left and other poor decisions can't be helped, but the original premise in this thread:

... I don't really get this whole "deadly as Traveller Rules as written" meme that people keep saying:

is not taking into account the never scaling HP, or simply the randomness inherent in dice rolling. If you fight on long enough, one of your opponents will roll and 18 on 3d6 for damage. That's a catastrophic hit in Traveller (unless you're wearing Battle Dress), potentially even an insta-kill. So, if your party at level 5 is fighting a wizard and he hits you all with a fireball that gets lucky and rolls max damage, 30 points (for a 5d6 fireball), that's pretty lethal, sure. But a Level 5 Fighter with +2 Con bonuses has 44HP, so he's not dead by 14HP , even if he fails to make his saving roll. The rogue may be in trouble, but he takes 0 damage if he saves. And you're going to be taking a -ton- more 3d6 hits than fireballs, and 3d6 maxes out far more often than 5d6.

There's danger in any game that features fighting, sure, but the point is, there's a fairly large gap in degree of risk.

The other point that this whole thread seems to have ignored is that in Traveller, you can die in chargen. AFAIK, that's unique to Traveller, and definitely adds to the deadly as Traveller RAW feeling.

 

[bookwyrm]

seems to have ignored is that in Traveller, you can die in chargen.

Mentioned in Post 20 as Prior History.

nuclear cruise missiles

That's a steep learning curve. But I like it...

I can't help but feel that game balance can only go so far. It's like an average 9-12 when rolling 3d6, the game is fun with the average rolls, and can get quite exciting depending on where the rare rolls fall. Game Noobs vs. Game Veterans. Risky Play vs. Cautious Play. And lots of other factors.

I will admit that Traveller's dying during Prior History makes Traveller a great 'Deadly Game' meme, and that most Traveller rule systems make combat deadly in a way that other game systems can lower with 'higher character levels'. I would think that Traveller requires more planning and preparation to survive combat than many other RPG's.

 

[whartung]

Not to completely threadjack, but I think it would be interesting for a "deeper" "lethal" char gen game, where there's actually steps you can take to try to improve survival, or risks you can take to improve results (that Starburst of Extreme Heroism adds -4 DM to the survival roll, for example).

The goal is to make a gameable rolling experience, but not create characters with results that are clearly built "to the game".

So, anything that you could do wouldn't affect the character itself per se long term, but would be an interesting tact to enrich the char gen experience.

We don't want Merchants with +4 rifle skill so they could get +DM rolls on survival, for example.

 

[Badenov]

Mentioned in Post 20 as Prior History.

Oops, missed that, sorry. It seems not to be a major part of this discussion, though, while I feel it is a major contributor to the feeling that Traveller is deadly. Traveller is so deadly that you can die in chargen!

That's a steep learning curve. But I like it...

I can't help but feel that game balance can only go so far. It's like an average 9-12 when rolling 3d6, the game is fun with the average rolls, and can get quite exciting depending on where the rare rolls fall. Game Noobs vs. Game Veterans. Risky Play vs. Cautious Play. And lots of other factors.

Agreed. A lot of game balance is the GM guaging what the characters are capable of and challenging them without overwhelming them.

I will admit that Traveller's dying during Prior History makes Traveller a great 'Deadly Game' meme, and that most Traveller rule systems make combat deadly in a way that other game systems can lower with 'higher character levels'. I would think that Traveller requires more planning and preparation to survive combat than many other RPG's.

Amusing as a meme, but I always felt that the risk of dying in chargen was a terrible mechanic. You've gone to the effort to make a cool character, thought about how they are and what they do, and one unlucky die roll and you have to start all over. How does that balance your character? You die or not, but then the rewards you get, if they're so spectacular that you risk death to get them, aren't offset by any disadvantage in the character if they do survive, so you essentially got cool stuff for no cost. The rulesets that change the mechanic to 'injured' rather than 'killed' for failing a survival roll miss the point: it's blind luck whether you pay for the reward or not. And if you're rolling stats rather than buying them, you might not even be able to make the same style of character as you had been getting psyched up to play.

I would rather restrict the survival rolls to only control staying in a career, or even skipping the survival roll entirely. The mishaps are so varied and unbalanced and random, it's basically Russian Roulette. 1 in 6 chance of no harm, 1 in 6 chance of Horribly Mangled for Life, with no sort of tradeoff or weighting of results. For a one-shot game with disposable characters, I guess any sort of character is fine, it's like a token on a Monopoly board. Your experience is the same if you're the shoe or the car. But this is 40 years later, I'm 40 years older, and I want different things in my games now.

 

[Condottiere]

Meteor Swarm 5e: The Nuclear Option

Bob and Sam discuss the spell Meteor Swarm.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Amusing as a meme, but I always felt that the risk of dying in chargen was a terrible mechanic. You've gone to the effort to make a cool character, thought about how they are and what they do, and one unlucky die roll and you have to start all over. How does that balance your character? You die or not, but then the rewards you get, if they're so spectacular that you risk death to get them, aren't offset by any disadvantage in the character if they do survive, so you essentially got cool stuff for no cost. The rulesets that change the mechanic to 'injured' rather than 'killed' for failing a survival roll miss the point: it's blind luck whether you pay for the reward or not. And if you're rolling stats rather than buying them, you might not even be able to make the same style of character as you had been getting psyched up to play.

It was a "press your luck" mechanic, to keep everyone from playing 62-year-old characters with vast skillsets. (Those would be great for min-maxing, not so hot for teen/young-adult players trying to 'get into character' for their characters...) And it doubled as a way to pre-gen NPCs, saving effort on the referee's part.

One of the main things about Traveller Chargen (especially in Classic) is that the character you get may very well not have been the one you were trying to generate -- and as a player, you're expected to deal with it.

Plus, it's an amusing talking point.

 

[Captain Bob of the LEXX]

When I first starting playing, our group would use 3x5 index cards to write down chargen. When one did not make it during chargen, that index card was given over to referee. There was an index box we used for expired characters who could be reanimated as NPCs whenever needed. This saved a lot of time in NPC generation and we found that the NPCs weren't just random joes rolled up on a whim; they were special to someone in the beginning.

I seem to remember that this method of recycling characters was written into the French RPG "Empire Galactique" some years later also.

 

[bookwyrm]

The rulesets that change the mechanic to 'injured' rather than 'killed' for failing a survival roll

Lol, I use one of these rulesets! Another thing this ruleset allows is increasing/decreasing your survival rolls at the cost of Decoration, Commission, and Experience Bonus rolls.

Taking the Heads Down route lowers your chances of Decorations, Commissions, and Bonus Experience while increasing your survival.
Taking the Risky Route raises your chances of Decoration, Commissions, and Bonus Experience while lowering your survival chances.

My only house rule on this is that DC's can't be higher than 20 or lower than 1 for any of the chances affected. This kind of keeps the more dangerous Careers dangerous, even if you are trying to be safe to survive, and the more survivable Careers can be made more dangerous for better rewards.

One thing that comes to my mind is that, dying in Prior History can't help but make a player consider how deadly Traveller is in actual game play.

 

[Badenov]

Lol, I use one of these rulesets! Another thing this ruleset allows is increasing/decreasing your survival rolls at the cost of Decoration, Commission, and Experience Bonus rolls.

That seems reasonable, depending on how exactly the numbers fall out.

One thing that comes to my mind is that, dying in Prior History can't help but make a player consider how deadly Traveller is in actual game play.

Yeah, that's a thing I don't think happens in any other game.

 

[atpollard]

Yeah, that's a thing I don't think happens in any other game.

In other games, generating (selecting from a pool of points?) a starting character is a chore to get through to start to play the game ... in Traveller, CharGen is a SOLO ADVENTURE all by itself! Every roll is a tile in a mosaic that the Player fits together to tell the unfolding story of who this new character is and how he arrived at this point in LIFE.

 

[Spinward Scout]

... I don't really get this whole "deadly as Traveller Rules as written" meme that people keep saying:

The maximum long range attack in Traveller (3D6 rifle) will not kill the average Traveller character with a single shot even at maximum damage (18 damage vs 21 "HP")

Try some higher Tech Level weapons. Gauss Rifle (4D6 damage), Submachine Gun (3D6 Auto 3 - if all 3 hit, you're doing 9d6 damage), and then there's Energy Weapons with damages from 3d6 to 6d6.

And amazing damage weapons like the PGMP and FGMP where you're basically throwing a small piece of a star at someone.

There's plenty of damage to kill people with. And if you use the Mongoose v2 rules, which are compatible with Classic Traveller, you can add your Effect to the damage.

 

[atpollard]

Try some higher Tech Level weapons. Gauss Rifle (4D6 damage), Submachine Gun (3D6 Auto 3 - if all 3 hit, you're doing 9d6 damage), and then there's Energy Weapons with damages from 3d6 to 6d6.

And amazing damage weapons like the PGMP and FGMP where you're basically throwing a small piece of a star at someone.

There's plenty of damage to kill people with. And if you use the Mongoose v2 rules, which are compatible with Classic Traveller, you can add your Effect to the damage.

D&D has Wands of Fireballs, too, but those are not TYPICAL ranged weapons for starting characters, are they? Rifles/Shoguns (Traveller) and Bows (D&D) are typical.

Go back to the rules on LAW LEVELS. How many Traveller worlds will you encounter a fully automatic weapon on? How many worlds can you walk off the Starport with a RIFLE and not trigger a MILITARY response at the gate?

[PS. the MEME predates Mongoose Traveller. ]

 

[mike wightman]

Take a knife.
Stick it through someone's neck or thigh artery and they die. Does this happen in Traveller combat?
No.
Can it?
No, not by the rules as written.

Take a .22 pistol, shoot it into someone's skull into their brain and they die (usually but not always).
Does this happen in Traveller combat?
No.
Can it?
No, not by the rules as written.

Conclusion, Traveller combat is not as lethal as the meme suggests.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Badenov]

Take a knife.
Stick it through someone's neck or thigh artery and they die. Does this happen in Traveller combat?
No.
Can it?
No, not by the rules as written.

Take a .22 pistol, shoot it into someone's skull into their brain and they die (usually but not always).
Does this happen in Traveller combat?
No.
Can it?
No, not by the rules as written.

Conclusion, Traveller combat is not as lethal as the meme suggests.

This ^ only means it's not as lethal as RL, and I don't think any game is. And the meme includes chargen, which I think is a major part of the lethality, so I suppose you'd need to include all people who die before ending their career to go out on adventures. What Traveller careers don't have is 'You get a disease and die'. At least not until you start making aging rolls.

Actual combat-wise in-play, I'd say Traveller is on a par with D&D at level 1, and I think the number crunching previously in this thread as at least put them in the same ballpark. 1-2 hits to KO, instakills rare.