Type ST Transport Scout: 199Td, J4/2G (LBB2 2nd Ed.)

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, there's a notch in the Drive Performance Table, but it's barely better than a 400 Dt standard hull, and worse than a 2000 Dt J-1 ship:

400 Dt, J-1, 7.4% return on investment

MT-4211111-000000-00000-0       MCr 63,2         400 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=4
batteries                                           TL=15
                         Cargo=261 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1

                                                             
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                  
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 63,18       kCr 12 636          kCr 263              80%
                                                             
Expenses per jump                       Revenue              
Bank                Cr 126 360          High           Cr       0
Fuel                Cr  25 000          Middle         Cr       0
Life Support        Cr   8 000          Low            Cr       0
Salaries            Cr   8 160          Cargo          Cr 208 000
Maintenance         Cr   2 527                                
Berthing            Cr     400                                
                                                             
Summa              kCr     170                        kCr     208
                                                             
     Income potential per jump     kCr 38                
  Yearly yield on down payment      7,4%

1000 Dt, J-1, 7.8% ROI

MT-A211111-000000-00000-0        MCr 207       1 000 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=5
batteries                                           TL=15
                       Cargo=789 Fuel=110 EP=10 Agility=1

                                                             
Expenses per jump                       Revenue              
Bank                Cr 414 000          High           Cr       0
Fuel                Cr  55 000          Middle         Cr       0
Life Support        Cr  10 000          Low            Cr       0
Salaries            Cr  10 080          Cargo          Cr 628 000
Maintenance         Cr   8 280                                
Berthing            Cr   1 000                                
                                                             
Summa              kCr     498                        kCr     628
                                                             
     Income potential per jump     kCr 130                
  Yearly yield on down payment      7,8%

2000 Dt, J-1, 8.3% ROI

MT-B211112-000000-00000-0        MCr 397       2 000 Dton
bearing                                           Crew=20
batteries                                           TL=15
                      Cargo=1564 Fuel=210 EP=20 Agility=1

                                                             
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                  
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
       MCr 396,90       kCr 79 380        kCr 1 654              80%
                                                             
Expenses per jump                       Revenue              
Bank                Cr 793 800          High         Cr         0
Fuel                Cr 105 000          Middle       Cr         0
Life Support        Cr  40 000          Low          Cr         0
Salaries            Cr  28 800          Cargo        Cr 1 248 000
Maintenance         Cr  15 876                                
Berthing            Cr   2 000                                
                                                             
Summa              kCr     985                      kCr     1 248
                                                             
     Income potential per jump     kCr 263                
  Yearly yield on down payment      8,3%

EDIT: Sorry, yes, the notch is at 2000 Dt, and it is slightly better than the alternatives.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

2KTd @ J-1 is a sweet spot in the design tables (Drives J get rounded up to factor 1 when they should be 0.9), so the ship it is mimicking is a good one in LBB2'81.

The TI is J-2, so unprofitable by design...

At 5000 Dt with Z-drives (J-2), we are getting close to profitability, but that is the only LBB2 J-2 ship that is close to profitable.

 

[Grav_Moped]

the notch is at 2000 Dt, and it is slightly better than the alternatives.

Found it when building the spreadsheet to figure out the anomalies in the table, back when I did up the Most Efficient LBB2 Ships by TL thread (which basically means the biggest ship you can build at a given TL for a given Jn). That's the only spot where a non-TL-15 drive (Size V or less) has performance greater than expected.

EDIT: The notch is for J-1 at 2K, but we were talking about a specific J-2 ship at 2K so I was off by a bit.

 

[Grav_Moped]

At 5000 Dt with Z-drives (J-2), we are getting close to profitability, but that is the only LBB2 J-2 ship that is close to profitable.

Stripped down to a single turret, that ship (5KTd, Jump Z, Maneuver W) has an operating cost per payload ton of Cr826 at J-2. It is profitable at LBB2 freight rates.

It's also the only ship that can make a profit on freight at Cr1k/Td at anything above J-1. (I think. Maybe Y drives in 4KTd or X drives in 3K break the Cr1000/payload ton barrier at J-2, but I didn't run the numbers since I was seeking to maximize efficiency at the time.)

 

[Vargr Breath]

TJ- When it absolutely positively has to be there overnight.

 

[Grav_Moped]

TJ- When it absolutely positively has to be there overnight.

Yeah. It's not about profitability. It's about getting approximately 200Td of payload to somewhere as fast as physically possible, money no object.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Stripped down to a single turret, that ship has an operating cost per payload ton of Cr826 at J-2. It is profitable at LBB2 freight rates.

Assuming a completely full load every jump...

It's also the only ship that can make a profit on freight at Cr1k/Td at anything above J-1. (I think. Maybe Y drives in 4KTd or X drives in 3K break the Cr1000/payload ton barrier, but I didn't run the numbers since I was seeking to maximize efficiency at the time.)

With a standard discount and a full load every jump both can be (barely) profitable.


Fill it with Low Berths and even a 400 Dt J-2 ship can be profitable with a full load every jump...

 

[Grav_Moped]

With a standard discount and a full load every jump both can be (barely) profitable.

Cool. I ran the numbers as standard discount, with a mortgage but no down payment (that is, paying cash and taking the mortgage payment as profit instead of building a profit margin into the cargo rates).

Fill it with Low Berths and even a 400 Dt J-2 ship can be profitable with a full load every jump...

If you can find that many low passengers (it's the same issue as with cargo in the other ones).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If you can find that many low passengers (it's the same issue as with cargo in the other ones).

Yes, it's a bold assumption. Not something I would build a business case on.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The TI is a 2000 Dt J-2 ship with ~1200 Dt cargo, that the TJ mimics to be covert.

Here's the trick question ... you ready?

How many TI freighters do you need to be running at a profit to offset the losses of operating a single TJ courier?
I'm wondering if the ratio is even as favorable as 15:1 (numbers pulled from the air), so that if you were running 20x TI for every 1x TJ the balance sheet for operations would still carry a marginal profit overall, hiding the losses needed to sustain the TJ in service?

Yeah. It's not about profitability. It's about getting approximately 200Td of payload to somewhere as fast as physically possible, money no object.

Granted ... but as a commercial enterprise you can't absorb losses of that magnitude indefinitely without a counterbalance.
Obviously the TI freighter ops would be that counterbalance, I'm just curious what the ratio would need to be to achieve that offset in the final reckoning.

even a 400 Dt J-2 ship can be profitable with a full load every jump...

Sure ... so long as you can find enough low passengers wanting to buy up all those tickets ...
Definitely not something a tramp trader can manage on the regular, but a megacorporation running a regular route very well might (the megacorps "play in a different market" from the catch as catch can free trader tramps do).

ALL ABOARD THE CORPSICLE EXPRESS!
Place your bets on how many will survive being thawed out at our destination if you want to participate in the Low Lottery!

 

[Grav_Moped]

How many TI freighters do you need to be running at a profit to offset the losses of operating a single TJ courier?

Interesting question.

Also, a moot question. The TJs are there to be a covert J-6 network because the Emperor decided that he needed one. The TIs are there to hide the existence of the TJs. If they make a profit, that's nice -- but in the end it doesn't matter, since they're not out there to generate revenue.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

How many TI freighters do you need to be running at a profit to offset the losses of operating a single TJ courier?

As the TI wouldn't make any profit at standard rates, it's moot question.

ALL ABOARD THE CORPSICLE EXPRESS!
Place your bets on how many will survive being thawed out at our destination if you want to participate in the Low Lottery!

Such a ship would kill something like 30 people per jump or 30 000 people over a normal 40 year mortgage. Somehow I doubt that would be normal commercial practice...

 

[Grav_Moped]

Such a ship would kill something like 30 people per jump or 30 000 people over a normal 40 year mortgage. Somehow I doubt that would be normal commercial practice...

Come on, where's your sense of entrepreneurship? You have to break a few eggs to make an omlette, after all.

</heavy sarcasm>

 

[Vargr Breath]

Interesting question.

Also, a moot question. The TJs are there to be a covert J-6 network because the Emperor decided that he needed one. The TIs are there to hide the existence of the TJs. If they make a profit, that's nice -- but in the end it doesn't matter, since they're not out there to generate revenue.

Imperiallines is the Air American of the Imperium.

Air America (airline) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[kilemall]

Maybe the case for J6 shipping on major routes is 100 dtons of mail cargo, guaranteed payment.

 

[coliver988]

just a comment that has been already made: the J6 courrier is not there to make a profit in the traditional business sense: information can be worth far, far more than any physical product, and time is money holds true in the far future as much as it does here. And if government backed, profit is a nice to have but in no way a requirement.

Anyway, several comments in this interesting thread have already pointed these ideas, I just did not want them to get ignored in the rush to see how to make a profit from within the rules. First rule of spacecraft (or any) design: what is its purpose?

 

[Grav_Moped]

First rule of spacecraft (or any) design: what is its purpose?

From the first post in the thread:
Traveller canon lacks a Scout Service ship capable of transporting more than a few personnel along all links in the Jump-4 XBoat network, aside from the Jump-5 Lightning Class Cruisers. Even the Donosev Class Survey Scouts are only capable of Jump-3.

Thus, the Type ST Transport Scout....

Configured for personnel transport (with a stateroom replacing the air/raft), it can carry 4-9 passengers in addition to the pilot.
‐--------‐-----------
It's also useful as a VIP transport (analogous to a "business jet").

[Edit: deleted off-topic (to the replied-to post) content.]

 

[Grav_Moped]

As the TI wouldn't make any profit at standard rates, it's moot question.

It's operating within the "Mega-corp only" trade regime wherin big ships have enough -- and sufficiently profitable -- cargo to make money regardless of what the trade mini-game would indicate.

The characteristics of that market are left undefined in the rules, but the setting materials demand that it exists.

 

[coliver988]

From the first post in the thread:
Traveller canon lacks a Scout Service ship capable of transporting more than a few personnel along all links in the Jump-4 XBoat network, aside from the Jump-5 Lightning Class Cruisers. Even the Donosev Class Survey Scouts are only capable of Jump-3.

Thus, the Type ST Transport Scout....

Configured for personnel transport (with a stateroom replacing the air/raft), it can carry 4-9 passengers in addition to the pilot.
‐--------‐-----------
It's also useful as a VIP transport (analogous to a "business jet").

[Edit: deleted off-topic (to the replied-to post) content.]

sorry - I did not mean the purpose for this specific ship (as I have read the entire thread). I meant that as a general thing, which, as pointed out, you did. Then the thread got caught up about profit/loss and I wanted to remind us that the purpose of this ship is not profit.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Then the thread got caught up about profit/loss and I wanted to remind us that the purpose of this ship is not profit.

Yep. Thanks!
Not the first side-track it's taken (house rules do that sometimes).