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U.S. WW 2/ Imperial Marines

"The war of 1812 had more to do with american policy of slavery then with the opression of the shipping. england outlawed slavery at about that time and was as a super power attempting to stop the american slave ships."


That's some revisionist history for ya, and a broad generalization attempting to blind people to the fact that Britain was in fact the largest colonial power in the World, and intent on recouping her colonies! LOL
 
Originally posted by Lord Covington:
That's some revisionist history for ya, and a broad generalization attempting to blind people to the fact that Britain was in fact the largest colonial power in the World, and intent on recouping her colonies! LOL
Well, not quite. The British did outlaw slavery in 1807 and freed slave onships flying hostile flags, but did not authorise attacks on neutral slave ships until 1839. I am afraid impressment was the real excuse. Although the reason seems to have been the conquest of Canada while the British were fighting Napoleon.

OTOH, the British weren't the least interested in reconquoring the American Colonies. We were not particularly interesting and we refused to pay for the French and Indian War, which was largely fought to defend us from the (justifiably upset) French and Indians. In 1812 we attacked the Canadian colonies first and the attack on Washington D.C. was a punitive attack only.

The British did want New Orleans, but only incidentally since they thought they could pick it up cheap.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lord Covington:
That's some revisionist history for ya, and a broad generalization attempting to blind people to the fact that Britain was in fact the largest colonial power in the World, and intent on recouping her colonies! LOL

Well, not quite. The British did outlaw slavery in 1807 and freed slave onships flying hostile flags, but did not authorise attacks on neutral slave ships until 1839. I am afraid impressment was the real excuse. Although the reason seems to have been the conquest of Canada while the British were fighting Napoleon.

OTOH, the British weren't the least interested in reconquoring the American Colonies. We were not particularly interesting and we refused to pay for the French and Indian War, which was largely fought to defend us from the (justifiably upset) French and Indians. In 1812 we attacked the Canadian colonies first and the attack on Washington D.C. was a punitive attack only.

The British did want New Orleans, but only incidentally since they thought they could pick it up cheap.
Now very OT but what the hell.

The United Kingdom did not want a war with the US, the US declared war over a rather flimsy issue, the seizing of RN deserters who signed on US flagged ships. The personnel seized were not being impressed into the Navy, they had already volunteered and had deserted (a common practice, as the bounty for enlisting was several thousand pounds in todays money).

The Canadians burnt Washington in retaliation for the burning of York (now Toronto).

The details of the New Orleans campaign are interesting, as until the last charge the British constantly outmaeouvered and outfought the US forces. Had the war continued a few more weeks New Orleans would have fallen (Pakenham still had 10,000 infantry against 3,000 militia), hell, if that charge had been done correctly it should have broken the US lines. (Griffith P., Forward into Battle: Fighting Tactics from Waterloo to the Near Future, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/PaddyGriffith/about.htm)

Bryn
 
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"RN Deserters"

A euphemism for Yankee sailors, hijacked on the high seas by His Majesty's Ships, and pressed into service like so many Portsmouth lads... LOL

I need not be lectured on History, Sir. I majored in the subject, along with International Relations/Political Science.

Now, while 'some' of those sailors may indeed have been 'deserters', per se, that is no excuse for hijacking sovereign vessels on the high seas; that, my friend, is nothing less than an act of war. I realize your sympathy for your anscestors, and the need to apologize for their actions. I, too, am rather embarassed by some of my own Nation's past deeds. However, the truth is the truth...
 
Hello boys and girls....

This is not Random Static. That is where politics are bitched, whined, moaned, groaned, and set straight on....

This is the Fleet; Where space operations are discussed. The current sub-thread has diddly-squat to do with Marine traditions in the Third Imperium. Can we keep on-thread here? Why give the politi-gripers something more to pitch a snit about? Eh?
 
I sincerely apologize for my part in this 'spat'- my comments certainly were not aimed in promoting discord, although it seems that they have.
 
Actually, that little sub-thread (which was actually a time-space wormhole where Random Static and The Fleet were temporarily joined) brings up an interesting note. Marines are primarily raiders and boarding troops, right? The also back up customs teams, as I recall. How would a Marine team function in support of customs, first if nothing is seized and second if something is seized?

Also, how does a hostile boarding function? I've read Doug Berry's GT: Ground Forces, and I know how he set a boarding up, but is it canon? If not, how does it work in canon? Is Doug Berry a member of this board?
 
Originally posted by Jame:
Actually, that little sub-thread (which was actually a time-space wormhole where Random Static and The Fleet were temporarily joined) brings up an interesting note. Marines are primarily raiders and boarding troops, right? The also back up customs teams, as I recall. How would a Marine team function in support of customs, first if nothing is seized and second if something is seized?

Also, how does a hostile boarding function? I've read Doug Berry's GT: Ground Forces, and I know how he set a boarding up, but is it canon? If not, how does it work in canon? Is Doug Berry a member of this board?
GDW did a few boardgames of this, Snapshot and Azanti High Lightning. Both use basically the Traveller combat system, but included rules for decompresion, piercing the hull etc.

The sidebar about the boarding of the first Bard Endeavour is the first scenario in AHL.

Marc Miller is selling FFE05, which includes both games as well as a bunch of other cool stuff. It also gives approximate Marine numbers. The Spinward Marches (including reinforcements from elsewhere?) has 40 Battalions of Marines, and 45 Battalions of Marines dropped onto Terra during the invasion of Earth.

A figure of a Marine Regiment (5 Battalions) per subsector seems about right. Only 10 of these 85 Bns are elite, and some of those that dropped on Earth were only equipped to TL-12. No Commando units are present in either game on the Imperial Side.

Bryn
 
Originally posted by Jame:
Actually, that little sub-thread (which was actually a time-space wormhole where Random Static and The Fleet were temporarily joined) brings up an interesting note. Marines are primarily raiders and boarding troops, right? The also back up customs teams, as I recall. How would a Marine team function in support of customs, first if nothing is seized and second if something is seized?

Also, how does a hostile boarding function? I've read Doug Berry's GT: Ground Forces, and I know how he set a boarding up, but is it canon? If not, how does it work in canon? Is Doug Berry a member of this board?
With routine customs inspection parties, the Marines are mostly there for show: one or at most two marine privates would be present, in undress uniforms and probably only carrying snub pistols. Their reason for being there is to look impressive and remind the crew being inspected that the full force of the Imperium is behind this little customs inspection, if needed....

If something is seized, it'd depend on what is seized. Marines would only be needed (I think) if whatever was seized required the seizure of the entire ship. In that case, marines would form part of the prize crew that takes the impounded ship into port. The marines would be there for security purposes, to ensure that evidence was not damaged or lost and to ensure that the crew didn't retake the ship. How many marines and what equipment they'd have have would depend on circumstances: how many crew on the prize, how long to a friendly port, how much evidence (usually the cargo) there is to be secured, etc. Remember that if the trip to port is more than a day or so, there'll need to be enough marines to rotate the people on watch so they can get some rest.
 
Originally posted by The Oz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jame:
Actually, that little sub-thread (which was actually a time-space wormhole where Random Static and The Fleet were temporarily joined) brings up an interesting note. Marines are primarily raiders and boarding troops, right? The also back up customs teams, as I recall. How would a Marine team function in support of customs, first if nothing is seized and second if something is seized?

Also, how does a hostile boarding function? I've read Doug Berry's GT: Ground Forces, and I know how he set a boarding up, but is it canon? If not, how does it work in canon? Is Doug Berry a member of this board?

With routine customs inspection parties, the Marines are mostly there for show: one or at most two marine privates would be present, in undress uniforms and probably only carrying snub pistols. Their reason for being there is to look impressive and remind the crew being inspected that the full force of the Imperium is behind this little customs inspection, if needed....

If something is seized, it'd depend on what is seized. Marines would only be needed (I think) if whatever was seized required the seizure of the entire ship. In that case, marines would form part of the prize crew that takes the impounded ship into port. The marines would be there for security purposes, to ensure that evidence was not damaged or lost and to ensure that the crew didn't retake the ship. How many marines and what equipment they'd have have would depend on circumstances: how many crew on the prize, how long to a friendly port, how much evidence (usually the cargo) there is to be secured, etc. Remember that if the trip to port is more than a day or so, there'll need to be enough marines to rotate the people on watch so they can get some rest.
Agreed, except for the part about the snub pistols. Marines are there to serve as a reminder of the consequences of disobedience, and snubs just ain't gonna do that. Undress (but armored) uniforms, but those snubs are gonna be replaced with ARLs, riotguns, and other 'big, scary-looking' weapons. Also a good time to break out those hull-metal cutlasses
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Alright, that's what an inspection gone wrong gets. What about those who get to go into an enemy ship, where they _know_ they'll be shot at? Surely they'll bring something bigger and better than assault shotguns and padded undress uniforms!
 
Originally posted by Jame:
Alright, that's what an inspection gone wrong gets. What about those who get to go into an enemy ship, where they _know_ they'll be shot at? Surely they'll bring something bigger and better than assault shotguns and padded undress uniforms!
Surely it would be local forces rather than Imperial Marines?

Bryn
 
Originally posted by BMonnery:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jame:
Alright, that's what an inspection gone wrong gets. What about those who get to go into an enemy ship, where they _know_ they'll be shot at? Surely they'll bring something bigger and better than assault shotguns and padded undress uniforms!
Surely it would be local forces rather than Imperial Marines?

Bryn
If it's the Navy that stopped the vessel, it'll be Marines* who board her!

*disclaimer - not all Navy vessels carry Marines. In such a case the boarding will be performed by crusty, old, overweight Chiefs under the eye of the greenest ensign in the fleet, in accordance with standard tri-d stereotyping rules.
 
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Now, that brings to mind something better left unsaid...

So I'll bring up boarding tactics. For the sake of conversation, presume a hostile boarding using marines in battledress with FGMPs. How would the marines get over there and then get in? What would they go after first?

Oh yes, I recently played Azhanti High Lightning. We used a two-player scenario for five people. Confusion abounds!
 
For my 0.02 credits, there are three targets on a jump capable vessel that boarders would almost certainly have to attack: the Power Plant, Jump Drive spaces, and the bridge(s), pretty much in that order. High value personnel would include technical computer personnel (!), command staff aboard (especially admiral's aides/quartmasters), intell officers, and the senior commander alive (who can lawfully order surrender and make the job easier for the boarding troops).

While all this fits in nicely with Azhanti High Lightning and G:T Ground Forces, to be completely fair I can't think of any targets for a boarding party that would take control of an enemy vessel so quickly with so little of the vessel damaged.

One would assume four conditions would be nessessary for a boarding assault to take ordered: the target vessel cannot manuver, the target vessel does not have significant batteries bearing on the boarding party's attack vector (probably a stern approach), the target vessel has most likely been summoned to surrender and has refused, and most importantly that there is a valid reason to risk ship and crew to commit the assault in the first place (new tech, intelligence aboard, reasonably intact vessel, etc.).

There are also two more things I tend to use IMTU: firstly, most naval commanders put the ship in precautionary vacuum against explosive decompression and that on capital ships the Sick Bay is usually NOT in vacuum to facilitate treatment of the wounded. This area is traditionally left undefended and unattacked as a "sophontarian gesture of war".
 
I agree with Ganidiirsi for the most part. The primary targets of a boarding action will be Engineering and Bridge (including the computer section) and enemy senior officers.

In HG combat enemy ships are often left without maneuver drive or fuel (especially from the "Fuel Tanks Shattered" Interior Explosion result) and must be captured after the rest of the enemy fleet has been driven off. Usually such ships are also low on weapons (from lots of Weapon-1 hits) and low on crew (from Crew-1 hits on the Radiation table). These hulks, if captured and repaired, could make nice additions to your own fleet.

Step Zero is to summon the survivors (if you can reach them) to surrender. This saves a lot of time and fuss. You keep this up all the time. Every enemy you don't have to kill is one more you can interrogate or trade for your own guys. This depend on just who you're fighting, of course.

Step One of a boarding action is to remove all remaining weapons that don't need power (missiles and sandcasters). Fighters might be very useful for this, or other armed small craft. Obviously you do this while trying to minimize additional damage to the prize. One creative ship designer build a Marine Assault Ship that carried Modular Cutters with battlefield meson guns in the cutter's module. These battlefield meson guns were just the thing for plucking off any remaining turrets. They were also very useful for providing fire support to the boarding parties as they advanced into the ship.

Step Two is to get the Marines inboard. Exactly how this is done depends on YTU. The wreck is usually tumbling and so you have to stabilize it first. You can use magentic fields, or grappler arms, or "thumps" from low-powered repulsors; whatever you want to have work in YTU. I have seen HG designs for 50kton Assault Ships that have thousands of tons of displacement allocated to "grapple arms" for just this occasion.

In unusual situations (unusual being defined by the GM) the wreck might not be stabilized before sending in the Marines. This would be very risky and require high skill on the part of the small craft pilots and the Marines going over. I think this would be done only if it were really, really necessary.

Once the wreck is stable, over go the troops. If you grappled the wreck, you're close enough that the Marines can just float over in their battledress and combat armor, using small EVA thruster packs to maneuver (Marines should practice this a lot). If you used some non-contact method to stabilize the wreck, the Marines approach in small craft, and then go over in their armor with the thruster packs. I can't imagine that a battle-damaged ship would have docking ports or hangers that could be used, especially for the first wave.

Once the Marines are on the hull, they find a weak spot to break in at. Airlocks are good, maybe fuel scoops, sensor arrays, holes in the hull from battle damage, that sort of thing. You pick spots close to your target areas, if you know the layout of the enemy hull. If not, you go aft for the engines and in the middle of the hull for the bridge (on big warships I can't imagine putting the bridge up at the pointy end, AHL notwithstanding).

If the Marines have to blow their way into the hull, they'll use special explosives (that really exist) called line charges. Think of a shaped charge that is made into a long rope of explosive with a flat side. You make a circle of the rope with the flat side in contact with the surface you want cut and fire the thing. It acts like an instant cutting torch all along its length and works instantly. Remember the hatch blowing open in the boarding action in the very first STAR WARS movie? It'd work like that, but even faster!!! You can also use fusion cutting torches or laser cutters if you want to in YTU. Whatever is needed, the Marines will have along with them. Probably each platoon will have a team of four Marine engineers along with all kinds of fun toys.

Once inside the Marines advance carefully and by the numbers. The point man serves to locate resistance by drawing fire. I don't think any sensors in the armor will be all that useful inside an enemy ship that is in vacuum and has lots of battle damage. Whatever use the Marines can get out of their sensors they will, of course. When resistance is found it is suppressed with grenades and FGMPs. The Marines will not be at all shy about outflanking serious resistance by blowing more holes in the hull or in adjacent bulkheads. If those battlefield meson gun-carrying Cutters are available they will be used as needed.

Then comes the really fun part.... When the Marines get to an area of the ship they want to take without doing too much more damage (Bridge, Engineering, Computer section), the grenades and FGMPs get put away and the gauss rifles, ARLs, and (IMTU) cutlasses come out.

Now, IMTU, the battledress Marine boarding cutlass is not some wimpy little steel blade. It's not even crystaliron. It's superdense metal with a monomolecular edge. It costs Cr2000, weighs 5.0 kg, requires a minimum strength of A (10) and has an advantageous strength level of E (14) which means a Marine probably has to be wearing powered battledress to make full use of it. The cutlass has a penetration of 15, raised to 20 when used at the advantageous strength level. It otherwise behaves as a regular cutlass. All the other Marines wear the standard Marine cutlass IMTU, which is like the battledress one but sized for non-powered people, costs Cr 1500, weighs 3.0 kg, requires 8+ in STR, with advantageous STR of 12+, having a normal penetration of 10, raised to 15 with advantageous STR. I am using STRIKER rules for combat, obviously.

Once the ship is secured, prisoners are put under guard and/or transferred to another ship, the Navy tries to repair and man the prize, and the Marines go home and polish the nicks out of their cutlasses.

Any questions?
 
I think you've nailed it OZ, except for the recon by point man.

I think a high tech UAV would be used...think a tiny, self propelled ball with cameras/sensors, always looking around the next corner ( more likely 2-3 corners ahead, so if they attract grenades, the marines are safe. )

Come to think of it...Send these in before the marines even enter and use them to gain as much intel as possible before the troops are deployed.

Of course, closed doors would limit them, but anything that adds to the information the commander has before he deploys his troops is bound to be used ( unless there is some kind of time constraint ).
 
Regarding the boarding of known hostiles:

I would note that these sort of tactics, especially regarding targets of choice and movement within the ship, would probably be used even in cases when a ship has "officially" surrendered...especially in the case of pirate vessels and conflicts with opponents known not to toe the line regarding the niceties of warfare.

Beyond the simple possibility that communications may have been knocked out in some portions of the target vessel resulting in crew resisting the boarders simply because they don't know that the ship has been surrendered, there are any number of unscrupulous types that might try lulling the marines into a vulnerable position and take advantage of them to get away from trouble.

Granted, if the ship has surrended the boarding marines may be a little more careful about throwning grenades and plasma/fusion beams around. However, given how dangerous and chaotic a boarding action, even one against a 'surrendered' ship is liable to be, if I was one of those marines I would want to follow SOP and assume there was a hostile around every corner until we knew we had the ship secured.
 
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