Using only Book 2 Starships -- Effect on Imperium

[creativehum]

I'm sure this has been discussed here somewhere, but my Google-Fu is stumped on how to dig it up.

Has there been any discussion of what happens (if anything) to the Imperium if one uses the small starship design of LBB Book 2 and does not use Highguard at all?

Does the Imperium exists with smaller starships? Is it changed? Does it stay the same, simply with smaller ships?

[EDITED TO ADD: Please note that in the next post I remove all concerns about the Third Imperium. The thread is about Small Ship use in a setting created using only Books 1-3 and no concerns for OTU material.]

 

[creativehum]

You know what... ignore the above post.

I just realized that while I admire all the work that has gone into the OTU (and am especially fond of MJD's take on the 3I from both Avenger and Mongoose material), I'm going to Proto-Traveller a setting from scratch using Book 3.

That was the game I wanted to play back when I first bought the books in '77 (and never got to play).

So, I don't have to worry about retrofitting the Third Imperium with smaller ships. I'll just be starting with smaller ships, roll out some sub-sectors (four tops, with implied setting beyond those boundaries as required) and see what happens.

 

[creativehum]

And, finally, if anyone is interested in the subject I asked about in the first post, I finally found it.

It's a fun Proto-Traveller thread full of wonderful ideas. It also goes on for 37 pages and requires all sorts of jury-rigging that makes me realize why I'll just start from scratch!

 

[robject]

Yep, I was about to suggest Proto-Traveller to you. And there are a pile of conversations here about Proto-Traveller, Book 2 Plus, and CT-Plus. They're all interrelated to some degree.

And of course, you can also go a long way by extending Book 2:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=25889&highlight=Proto-Traveller


(To pile on just a little bit, Traveller5 does that in spades).

 

[creativehum]

Also, I found this thread [Small Ship Fleet Size] which addresses the issue of Small Ships from scratch without trying to retrofit the Imperium into Book 2.

I'm only on the first page of the thread. I expect it will blow up into an argument that I won't care to follow. But it will also provide interesting insights to think about!

 

[creativehum]

Oh, that thread I linked to above is awesome. (Truly.)

The best idea I'm getting is that once you scuttle the awesome, centralized sprawl of the Third Imperium when making a Small Ship setting, you get this...

We can always take a look at it from the Roman Republic idea where Great Men raised legions at their own expense and then the state paid the maintenance as another alternative.

Which pinged off of earlier posts of the Nobles (implied in the Character Creation in Book 1) are responsible for raising fleets, not a massive Imperium that has a taxable population of gazillions to raise money and spend as it sees fit.

Then McPerth, correctly, replies with this:

And was not the generalization of this custom that helped Rome to start having Civil Wars, as legions were more loyal to their raiser than to the Republic?

Which, for what's it worth, I thing would be awesome and exactly the kind of situation I dreamed of for Traveller when I first read the books as a teenager back in the day.

One of my biggest problems with the OTU, especially as it was developed over the years, was everyone trying to iron out all the flaws and imperfections of any human society. It kept moving toward this perfectly built clockwork -- which, in turn, turned it into a big block of amber where in which the PCs had very little room to maneuver or adventure.

But a setting where there the local polity is constantly on the verge of, or in the middle of, civil wars because the military is more loyal to their raiser than the republic? Yes, please, thank you, and I'll have another.

[Edited to Add: The more I think about the quotes above, and the more I think about mix of Nobility, financing, and small ships all part of the play produced by LBBs 1-3, the happier I am. This really is how I imagine Nobility was going to work in a Traveller game back in the day.]

 

[Timerover51]

I'm sure this has been discussed here somewhere, but my Google-Fu is stumped on how to dig it up.

Has there been any discussion of what happens (if anything) to the Imperium if one uses the small starship design of LBB Book 2 and does not use Highguard at all?

Does the Imperium exists with smaller starships? Is it changed? Does it stay the same, simply with smaller ships?

Small is a relative term when it comes to Book 2 ships. A 5,000 Traveller dTon ship has an approximate volume of 70,000 cubic meters, which is equivalent to a rectangular block of 200 meters long, 20 meters wide, and 17.5 meters high.

By comparison, a World War 2 Liberty Ship had a gross tonnage of 7,191 tons. Gross tonnage is an indication of the ship's internal volume equal to 100 cubic feet per gross ton. That is equal to 2.831 cubic meters, which would make a Liberty equal to approximately 20,350 cubic meters, or about 1,450 Traveller dTons. That means that a 5,000 Traveller dTon ship per Book 2 would have a volume greater than 3 Liberty Ships. A Liberty was rated at carrying 10,000 dead weight tons of cargo. Depending on how you do your cargo volume to cargo mass ratio, that is a lot of cargo for a 5,000 dTon ship.

Now, get ready for a real shock. The RMS Titanic, of iceberg fame, was rated at 46,328 Gross Register Tons, which is equivalent to about 9,370 Traveller dTons. So a 5,000 Traveller dTon ships would be about 1/2 the size of the Titanic. The "Edmund Fitzgerald", of song and shipwreck fame, was rated at 13,632 Gross Register Tons, or about 2,760 Traveller dTons. The "Fitz" was not a small ship by any means. See the dimensions listed in Wikipedia. The "Freedom of the Seas" cruise ship, on which I sailed the maiden voyage, is listed at 154,407 Gross Register Tons, equal to about 31,220 Traveller dTons. That is one big ship, but look at how it rates in Traveller dTons. Barely half the size of the Azhanti High Lightning class

Five Thousand Traveller tons would be about the right volume for a World War 1 super-dreadnought or a World War 2 heavy cruiser in terms of a warship.

In short, the supposedly "small ship" universe of Book 2 provides the player with ships that would be greater in size to all but the largest of the Earth's ocean fleets up to about 1960. Your large ocean passenger liners, World War 2 battleships and battlecruisers, and most aircraft carriers would be the only ships bigger than a 5,000 dTon ship.

I view Book 2 ships are the most realistic for a Traveller universe. Why High Guard came into the picture, I have no idea. I have no use for it.

 

[creativehum]

Small is a relative term when it comes to Book 2 ships.

Let me jump in quickly and say, "Absolutely."

I'm certain that when anyone uses the word "small" in the context of this particular conversation, we're only using the word "small" relative to the ships found in High Guard.

Without High Guard we'd be talking about "Those Really Big, Terrifying 5000 Ton Ships."

I view Book 2 ships are the most realistic for a Traveller universe. Why High Guard came into the picture, I have no idea. I have no use for it.

I suspect Star Wars -- which was released while the 1977 Traveller boxed set was at the printers. But that's a blunt guess on my part. Others will most likely know better.

Either way, I concur. The range of ships available in Book 2 is going to handle the needs of a Traveller setting perfectly.

And thanks for all the comparisons and info!

 

[rancke]

I'm certain that when anyone uses the word "small" in the context of this particular conversation, we're only using the word "small" relative to the ships found in High Guard.

So it is.

And one thing to keep in mind is that to a PC level ship, a 200 or 400T ship, a 5000T battleship is just as much of a buzzkill as a 500,000T battleship. The only thing is, anyone who can afford one 500,000T battleship can afford 70 or 80 (guesstimate) 5000T battleships.

To get a small-ship-and-not-too-blooming-many-of-them setting, you either need small populations (which has its own problems) or you need a far-off core where they build and station those million-ton battleships, leaving only a handful of small fry to patrol a remote frontier (with not too populated worlds) where you can set your adventures.

The problem with the Third Imperium if you want few ships is that you have pop level 9 and pop level A worlds dotted randomly all through Charted Space.

Me, I just run different kinds of adventures. Mostly scaled to be beneath the notice of people with the money to fund navies.

Without High Guard we'd be talking about "Those Really Big, Terrifying 5000 ton Ships."

"Those hundreds of thousands of terrifying 5000T ships."

Trillions of people can afford a LOT of starships.


Hans

 

[creativehum]

Hans,

Quickly:

I've read all your posts on the thread I linked to above. I understand your logic. Thank you.

Also: There's no Third Imperium in this thread. This is all just Books 1-3, with a setting generated per the rules. There's no High Guard and no Third Imperium (as noted in post #2 -- when I suddenly realized I didn't want to deal with Third Imperium.)

Finally, while I appreciate all your points, note that by removing the Third Imperium, I'm knocking all the methods of financing and more contained in any materials that use the Third Imperium as a base.

I appreciate that you are very committed to voicing the warning bells about the points you just made. I'm going to ask a favor: Can we assume that these particular points are noted already and there's no need to rehash them from scratch here. Especially since there is no Third Imperium involved here.

It is my belief that since I'll be creating my own setting (with it's own non-optimized social structures) I'll be able to tweak things the way I want so that the financing of an almost infinite number of ships won't be in the cards.
Is that cool?

 

[creativehum]

I've been going through the LBBs as well as the old FASA deck plans and I've found something interesting:

Unless I'm missing something, all the ships I'm looking at cap out at 1000 tons. It's like everyone decided to skip over the 1000-5000 ton ships. (Was there a reason for this?)

Does anyone know if there any sources for Book 2 Ship Designs at the 1000 to 5000 ton range?

 

[aramis]

Timerover - there is an axiomatic conversion from cubic feet to Dtons - close enough for most purposes, of 500 cf or 5 GRT. It's from GURPS Traveller.

Creativehum - you may want to consider the budgeting - The GDP per capita in the US at the time CT was written was about $8300/year. The 1976 prices are pretty much what the credit costs are for various items that were available in 1976. That gives you an idea what the "first world planets" IYPTU might ballpark at in Cr. That also works out to about Cr700/month as the median income for what was a rich nation.

 

[rancke]

Also: There's no Third Imperium in this thread. This is all just Books 1-3, with a setting generated per the rules. There is neither High Guard nor the Third Imperium setting materials (as noted above).

I beg your pardon. It was your mention of the OTU that confused me.

Finally, while I appreciate all your points, note that by removing the Third Imperium, I'm knocking all the methods of financing and more contained in any materials that use the Third Imperium as a base.

Not really. Financing has some common features regardless of political setup. People work, some of their effort is spent on building ships. This happens for all societies. Any society that's efficient enough to build a 200T ship that is cheap enough for a group of private individuals to afford is efficient enough to build lots and lots of ships if it has populations in the hundreds of millions and above.

EDIT: Changed 'thousands' to 'millions'.

I appreciate that you are very committed to voicing the warning bells about the points you just made. I'm going to ask a favor: Can we assume that these particular points are noted already and there's no need to rehash them from scratch here. Especially since there is no Third Imperium involved here.

It is my belief that since I'll be creating my own setting (with it's own non-optimized social structures) I'll be able to tweak things the way I want so that the financing of an almost infinite number of ships won't be in the cards.

Is that cool?

I believe you're wrong, but if you want me to butt out of this discussion, you've got it. I hope it works out for you.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

I've been going through the LBBs as well as the old FASA deck plans and I've found something interesting:

Unless I'm missing something, all the ships I'm looking at cap out at 1000 tons. It's like everyone decided to skip over the 1000-5000 ton ships. (Was there a reason for this?)

Does anyone know if there any sources for Book 2 Ship Designs at the 1000 to 5000 ton range?

IIRC the Kinunir was a Frontier Cruiser weighing in at a whopping 1200 DTons....as far as I know it was also the largest published Small Ship Universe Ship.

 

[creativehum]

Cryton, I think you're right!

Hans, thank you for your patience. (And sorry about the confusion. I took the Third Imperium out of the equation in my second post -- not only changing the course of the conversation but also making the title of the thread incorrect.)

 

[Cryton]

My mistake, it was it the Leviathan at 1800 DTons. While it wasn't a warship, it was a whale of a ship in a Small Ship Universe.

 

[creativehum]

I've never read Leviathan, so thanks for the heads up.

I'm wondering if anyone did make the 2000-5000 Ton warships -- or if once GDW decided to go with High Guard they were all seen as ridiculously useless.

 

[rancke]

I've never read Leviathan, so thanks for the heads up.

I'm wondering if anyone did make the 2000-5000 Ton warships -- or if once GDW decided to go with High Guard they were all seen as ridiculously useless.

There was a writeup (with deckplans) of the 5000T Sloan Class escort in Challenge #25.

Many years ago I came across deck plans for a Chrysanthemum, but I think they were fan-created and I've lost them long ago in one of my computer replacements. (Also, now that I think about it, the Chryssies are 'only' 1000T).


Hans

 

[robject]

The reason lots of designers stopped at around 1,000 tons may have partly been due to drive performance constraints at higher tonnages.

The best idea I'm getting is that once you scuttle the awesome, centralized sprawl of the Third Imperium when making a Small Ship setting, you get this... [...]

Which pinged off of earlier posts of the Nobles (implied in the Character Creation in Book 1) are responsible for raising fleets, not a massive Imperium that has a taxable population of gazillions to raise money and spend as it sees fit.

[...]

[Legions beholden to local nobility, I think], would be awesome and exactly the kind of situation I dreamed of for Traveller when I first read the books as a teenager back in the day.

Me too. That's why I wrote the Deneb Sector book the way I did. It puts a small-ship setting inside the big-ship Imperium - at least as much as possible without breaking the setting.

Yes, that's a shameless plug.

 

[robject]

Another thought about hulls and Book 2:

Any other hull must be produced on a custom basis at a cost of MCr0.1 per ton; minimum price MCr20.

Please note the word Any. There is no constraint on hull size: you can build hulls greater than 5,000 tons.

Note the table on p.59. There is no "standard" hull that's 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, or 5,000 tons: they're shown as examples by which to gauge drive performance ratings.

So, the constraint is drive availability. The Z drives support rating 3 on 4,000 ton hulls; therefore, the largest movable ship is therefore 12,000 tons, capable of Jump-1, Maneuver-1. It's still a small ship universe, but just be aware of the upper end.

Also note where performance starts waning: at 2,000 tons.