Using only Book 2 Starships -- Effect on Imperium
- Thread starter creativehum
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Largest warship, maybe, not largest Bk2 design. That goes to a 5000Td freighter in TTA, the Hercules Class. Page 140.
And the Kinunir is not even the largest CT canonical Bk2 design deckplan. The 1800 Td Leviathan has full deckplans (Adv 4). Her drives are MD Y, JD X, PP Y, with backup MD W and JD W.
Funny...I think that the Leviathan was the only published design with back up drives...
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
While their Canonicity is sometimes* a lower grade, the FASA ships include several in the 1000 to 5000 dton range, including warships and the rules-and-physics-defying** 5000 dton King Richard luxury liner.
I note that some of the larger FASA ships now go for stupid money on eBay.
--
*-several would later appear in the two TNE ship games and in MT art, and would count as fully adopted in my opinion.
**-both mostly solved by adding a fuel deck between the two largest decks
I note that some of the larger FASA ships now go for stupid money on eBay.
--
*-several would later appear in the two TNE ship games and in MT art, and would count as fully adopted in my opinion.
**-both mostly solved by adding a fuel deck between the two largest decks
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
That's fascinating. It never occurred to me that the samples listed in Book 2 were basically the ship designs.
And a question: You got to the 12,000 ton ship by extrapolating the table out from the 4,000 ton hull. But, as you point out, performance starts dropping at 2,000. Is it possible there is another large drop in performance above 5,000 tons?
I really never played around with the ship combat much at all, so seeing how the performance drops so steeply after 2,000 tons is a big insight into how the game is balance toward the smaller ships.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
I think some of the larger FASA warships are post-High Guard. (Those I've seen so far are post-1980 and formatted using High Guard and have High Guard weapons. But I'll keep digging around.
And thanks to everyone for pointing out the ships in TTA and other sources!
EDIT:
I just looked up the Imperial Gazelle Class Close Escort from JTAS #4. Although the ship is only 400 tons, in the fiction accompanying the decks plans the captain of the merchant ship that gets buzzed by the Gazelle says, "I am glad we're just carrying a load of protein this trip. I wouldn't want to tangle with even one Gazelle class escort, let alone five." Which I find fascinating since in a few months the Imperium would soon have 1,000,000,000 vessels patrolling the space lanes.
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GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Technically all of the FASA ships are post High Guard. Even the earliest have High Guard stats.
Their specific tonnage decisions may be HG, but you can convert them back to Book 2 use with the method in the K'kree book for taking damage. Only the ships with bay weapons and extensive armor or screens are going to give real conversion issues, and the intent can be converted.
I realize you threw down the gauntlet of "Book 2 only", but you can also use High Guard and just ignore anything above a chosen size. Keep spinal mounts out of the picture and HG scales pretty well at the small end.
Their specific tonnage decisions may be HG, but you can convert them back to Book 2 use with the method in the K'kree book for taking damage. Only the ships with bay weapons and extensive armor or screens are going to give real conversion issues, and the intent can be converted.
I realize you threw down the gauntlet of "Book 2 only", but you can also use High Guard and just ignore anything above a chosen size. Keep spinal mounts out of the picture and HG scales pretty well at the small end.
Of course it is possible. But that's a slippery slope - once you start making those sorts of decisions, you might end up anywhere. I suggest sticking closely to the examples and extrapolating simply. It won't change the game.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Starter Traveller does go up to 5,000 dTon hulls in the drive and power plant chart, topping out with the Z drive, giving Jump-2, 2G acceleration, and Power Plant 2. The total mass of jump drive, maneuver drive, and power plant is 245 tons, so volume would also be 245 dTons. The build time is given at 36 months, and I assume that you use the 0.1 MCr cost for the hull, so 500 million for the hull, which does seem quite excessive.
I could see a build time of 36 months for what I would call a basic cargo liner, carrying both cargo primarily and some passengers, less for a straight cargo ship, and more, like maybe 48 to 60 months for a passenger ship. For a warship that size, 48 to 60 months. The 500 million I could see as the cost for a warship hull.
Then again, I am comparing building costs and time for Traveller ships with ocean-going vessels in the real world. You would have to decide how comparable they are.
I could see a build time of 36 months for what I would call a basic cargo liner, carrying both cargo primarily and some passengers, less for a straight cargo ship, and more, like maybe 48 to 60 months for a passenger ship. For a warship that size, 48 to 60 months. The 500 million I could see as the cost for a warship hull.
Then again, I am comparing building costs and time for Traveller ships with ocean-going vessels in the real world. You would have to decide how comparable they are.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
IMPTU - I use a cherry picked version of LBB2 from '77 and '81 editions (+ the missing pulse laser rules from SE and the radiation damage table from SS3)
I consider the LBB2 rules to be primarily for civilian and paramilitary ship, military ships have more options (these are adapted from HG 1 and 2)
For example I allow warships access to extra weapons in the form of barbettes, bay weapons, armour and screens (black globe, nuclear damper and meson).
A side effect off this is military ships end up costing a lot more than civilian craft.
I consider the LBB2 rules to be primarily for civilian and paramilitary ship, military ships have more options (these are adapted from HG 1 and 2)
For example I allow warships access to extra weapons in the form of barbettes, bay weapons, armour and screens (black globe, nuclear damper and meson).
A side effect off this is military ships end up costing a lot more than civilian craft.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Just a quick note (specifically in reply to GypsyComet):
I'm not trying to "limit" the choice of ships to pre-High Guard. I was just curious if, before High Guard, GDW or anyone had built military ships. After all, there is a navy that the PCs can serve in.
As Mike Wightman points out, LBB2 rules to be primarily for civilian and paramilitary ships. Given that, I was simply curious if anyone could point me to any heavier ships out of pre-High Guard play.
Thus far, we have heavier ships, but they are still primarily merchant, though more heavily armed. In terms of military vessels, outside of Book 2, we have a battle cruiser (Kinunir class at 1250 tons); and a close escort (Gazelle class at 400 tons.)
All of this is fine. I honestly was just curious what naval actions looked like in the original imagining of Classic Traveller. If a battle cruiser is coming in at 1250 tons, then we don't need much more at all for battle ships.
I'm assuming that because Traveller (the game, not the OTU) is designed for and focused on Player Character play, the ship designs in published material were kept focused on what the PCs could reasonable interact with. As Hans points out, a 5,000 ton battleship is simply going to be too much for any PC crewed merchant ship to handle. (And rightly so!)
But this does give me some idea of the range of ship designs to build. If the Kinunir is an example battle cruiser, than, as timerover points out, we can get all of our most terrifying dreadnoughts into play with our 5,000 ton limit.
And yes, I understand larger ships can be extrapolated. But understand, I'm trying to find the edges and limits of ship construction so that I a) don't go mad; and b) find the fictional color and flavor that Miller was going for in the original box.
In terms of that fictional color and flavor, in answer to timeover's point about how far to carry a comparison to ocean-going vessels for Traveller ships, I would say, "Pretty far." Marc made sure to note an Age of Sails analogy as a very important default for the implied setting. Given what I'm seeing in ship size and design (with an emphasis on ships as tools of merchants, exploration and transport, and battle ships being the extraordinary element in space) I see the analogy as very solid.
Travel is rare, most people stay at home -- not only on their home worlds, but also within their homelands on their worlds.
Naval ships are there to protect trade and to protect planets from being choked off from goods or cut off from communication. Massive invasions of planets are going to depend on huge numbers of ground forces -- which will be both rare and extraordinary. Most people who get into ships go about the business of moving goods, trying to survive and make a profit, and dealing with countless troubles. Naval engagements risk loss of investment into the ships themselves, as well political and economic disruption, and can spiral out of control and waste countless resources and so are kept to a minimum. Pride and avarice will often destroy that restraint as people who have built the tools for war can't wait to give them a go. (I'm especially interested to read Rob's Deneb Sector book now in this regard.)
I'm not trying to "limit" the choice of ships to pre-High Guard. I was just curious if, before High Guard, GDW or anyone had built military ships. After all, there is a navy that the PCs can serve in.
As Mike Wightman points out, LBB2 rules to be primarily for civilian and paramilitary ships. Given that, I was simply curious if anyone could point me to any heavier ships out of pre-High Guard play.
Thus far, we have heavier ships, but they are still primarily merchant, though more heavily armed. In terms of military vessels, outside of Book 2, we have a battle cruiser (Kinunir class at 1250 tons); and a close escort (Gazelle class at 400 tons.)
All of this is fine. I honestly was just curious what naval actions looked like in the original imagining of Classic Traveller. If a battle cruiser is coming in at 1250 tons, then we don't need much more at all for battle ships.
I'm assuming that because Traveller (the game, not the OTU) is designed for and focused on Player Character play, the ship designs in published material were kept focused on what the PCs could reasonable interact with. As Hans points out, a 5,000 ton battleship is simply going to be too much for any PC crewed merchant ship to handle. (And rightly so!)
But this does give me some idea of the range of ship designs to build. If the Kinunir is an example battle cruiser, than, as timerover points out, we can get all of our most terrifying dreadnoughts into play with our 5,000 ton limit.
And yes, I understand larger ships can be extrapolated. But understand, I'm trying to find the edges and limits of ship construction so that I a) don't go mad; and b) find the fictional color and flavor that Miller was going for in the original box.
In terms of that fictional color and flavor, in answer to timeover's point about how far to carry a comparison to ocean-going vessels for Traveller ships, I would say, "Pretty far." Marc made sure to note an Age of Sails analogy as a very important default for the implied setting. Given what I'm seeing in ship size and design (with an emphasis on ships as tools of merchants, exploration and transport, and battle ships being the extraordinary element in space) I see the analogy as very solid.
Travel is rare, most people stay at home -- not only on their home worlds, but also within their homelands on their worlds.
Naval ships are there to protect trade and to protect planets from being choked off from goods or cut off from communication. Massive invasions of planets are going to depend on huge numbers of ground forces -- which will be both rare and extraordinary. Most people who get into ships go about the business of moving goods, trying to survive and make a profit, and dealing with countless troubles. Naval engagements risk loss of investment into the ships themselves, as well political and economic disruption, and can spiral out of control and waste countless resources and so are kept to a minimum. Pride and avarice will often destroy that restraint as people who have built the tools for war can't wait to give them a go. (I'm especially interested to read Rob's Deneb Sector book now in this regard.)
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Book 2 is missing all of the larger weaponry, and only provides a hint of "armor" by installing larger drives (so a ship could take a few hits before losing drive ratings). While Book 2 rules provide (through Book 1 and Supplement 4) several para-military designs, the game had to add weapons as seen on the Kinunir and the JTAS version of the Gazelle in order to bring a military feel to Book 2 designs. This need was made moot by the publication of High Guard, even if you don't built big.
Without that look "forward", Book 2 defines a universe of not only small ships, but small weapons. There are only two options for increased resilience: bigger drives or extra drives. You don't get any ability to carry more weaponry unless you start looking at other books with an eye toward filtering out their High Guard-specific content while still using the ideas. In the case of weaponry you get the fixed mount rule in the Soiomani book.
CT provides no design system for subcraft, so you don't even get access to fighters without High Guard, just weaponized civilian subcraft.
In the end, it is not difficult to see why High Guard quickly became the default ship building mode for CT players, even for those sticking to smaller ships.
Without that look "forward", Book 2 defines a universe of not only small ships, but small weapons. There are only two options for increased resilience: bigger drives or extra drives. You don't get any ability to carry more weaponry unless you start looking at other books with an eye toward filtering out their High Guard-specific content while still using the ideas. In the case of weaponry you get the fixed mount rule in the Soiomani book.
CT provides no design system for subcraft, so you don't even get access to fighters without High Guard, just weaponized civilian subcraft.
In the end, it is not difficult to see why High Guard quickly became the default ship building mode for CT players, even for those sticking to smaller ships.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I think you may be getting the fixed mount rule from the Solomani AM wrong - it doesn't get you any extra weapons.
What it does is allow you to mount up to two weapons on a hardpoint without paying for fire control or the turret. This saves you 1t and 100kCr (and saves you the cost of a turret). You do suffer a -2 to hit and can only have a number of fixed mounts equal to your computer rating.
So you are limited to the number of hardpoints just as always.
What it does is allow you to mount up to two weapons on a hardpoint without paying for fire control or the turret. This saves you 1t and 100kCr (and saves you the cost of a turret). You do suffer a -2 to hit and can only have a number of fixed mounts equal to your computer rating.
So you are limited to the number of hardpoints just as always.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Creativehum - there are a couple of ways to build more militarised craft without fudging LBB2.
The first - as GypsyComet mentions - is to carry redundant drives so you can absorb more battle damage.
The next is to make sure your power plant is one drive letter (not number) higher than your power plant so that your ship can use the double fire rule.
Finally carry as many fighters, or better yet ship's boats, as you can since they provide a mobile extra turret
One final note - while checking the Solomani Module for its fixed weapons rule I notice that there is a 1000t cruiser detailed therein. There are probably more hidden away within the alien module series - and all bar the K'kree were built using LBB2 rather than HG.
Aslan AM - 800t escort, 1000t cruiser.
Vargr AM - 800t frigate.
Zhodani AM - 600t escort, 2000t cruiser.
Solomani AM - 1000t cruiser.
The first - as GypsyComet mentions - is to carry redundant drives so you can absorb more battle damage.
The next is to make sure your power plant is one drive letter (not number) higher than your power plant so that your ship can use the double fire rule.
Finally carry as many fighters, or better yet ship's boats, as you can since they provide a mobile extra turret
One final note - while checking the Solomani Module for its fixed weapons rule I notice that there is a 1000t cruiser detailed therein. There are probably more hidden away within the alien module series - and all bar the K'kree were built using LBB2 rather than HG.
Aslan AM - 800t escort, 1000t cruiser.
Vargr AM - 800t frigate.
Zhodani AM - 600t escort, 2000t cruiser.
Solomani AM - 1000t cruiser.
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THe Bk2 stock designs aren't "THE designs."... there's room for some variety.
But there are some interesting hiccups... note that the performance by pure book 2 is due to drive letter limitations, and artificially lowering the performance of drives W-Z in 1000-3000Td hulls from what would be formulaic.
And some interesting tidbits about hulls and TL's at which they happen...
J3 is available at TL9. J4 at TL 10. J5 at TL 13, and J6 at TL 14 or 15... but only in specific hulls.
It makes a huge difference in how the setting works when TL9 has J3 performance.
Also, under Bk2-'77 you can use a 1/bis for any jump distance.
You may want to change prices for freight to Cr1000 per parsec, not per jump; if you do, there are hulls that can turn a profit (on pure cargo designs) to J6, assuming they fill.
CT-81, those hulls:
J1, J2: 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000
J3: 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000
J4: 800, 1000, 2000, 3000
J5, J6: 2000
CT 77, those hulls
J1, J2: 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000
J3: 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000
J4: 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000
J5: 800, 1000, 2000
J6: 2000
And, hulls are effectively limited by TL
TL 9: 100-800
TL 10: 1000
TL 11: 2000
TL 13: 3000
TL 15: 5000
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Guys, thanks so much for this.
GC, great point about the Kinunir and the Gazelle and the addition of more powerful weapons. Thanks for that. I'm concerned about adding more rules and procedures for my brain to have to follow, but on the other hand, but the time a Battle Cruiser shows up to confront the PCs' Fat Trader, we'd be roleplaying out the situation rather than having a standup fight!
EDIT TO ADD: If I were to start adding the heavier weapons in, I'd be using modifiers to the Book 2 for combat, per this quote from the JTAS write-up for the Gazelle:
Mike, thanks for that. And thanks for the heads up on the Alien Modules. That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.
GC, great point about the Kinunir and the Gazelle and the addition of more powerful weapons. Thanks for that. I'm concerned about adding more rules and procedures for my brain to have to follow, but on the other hand, but the time a Battle Cruiser shows up to confront the PCs' Fat Trader, we'd be roleplaying out the situation rather than having a standup fight!
EDIT TO ADD: If I were to start adding the heavier weapons in, I'd be using modifiers to the Book 2 for combat, per this quote from the JTAS write-up for the Gazelle:
Mike, thanks for that. And thanks for the heads up on the Alien Modules. That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.
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creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Hi Aramis,
Absolutely. I never meant to say those were the only designs. I was pinging off Rob's point about those being the standard designs, from the quote in his post. I would see that as strangely limiting.
And thank you pointing out the other matters. There are lots of implications about how the ships work scattered across many elements of the game!
The thing about Traveller is that it's like many separate games all bound up in those three books: Character Creation; Sub-Sector creation; Personal Combat; Ship Combat; Trade; Ship-Design... One can stay busy digging into one element for a while. And then, of course, they begin to affect each other as you start putting them together.
Absolutely. I never meant to say those were the only designs. I was pinging off Rob's point about those being the standard designs, from the quote in his post. I would see that as strangely limiting.
And thank you pointing out the other matters. There are lots of implications about how the ships work scattered across many elements of the game!
The thing about Traveller is that it's like many separate games all bound up in those three books: Character Creation; Sub-Sector creation; Personal Combat; Ship Combat; Trade; Ship-Design... One can stay busy digging into one element for a while. And then, of course, they begin to affect each other as you start putting them together.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Aramis,
Can you point me to the TL-Hull limits in the books?
I'm finding the TL-Drive limits in the Tech table, but can't find the limits on hull. Thanks!
Can you point me to the TL-Hull limits in the books?
I'm finding the TL-Drive limits in the Tech table, but can't find the limits on hull. Thanks!
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Right. I find that rule clumsily worded at best, so its place in my memory is a bit muddled.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Why should there be a Tech Level limit on hull size? The Great Eastern was built in the 1860s as a 25,000 ton ship, which was too big for the available cargo, but was within the technology of the period. For ocean-going vessels, you could argue for some sort of limit on ship size using wrought iron for the ship's hull, but given the Great Eastern, it is going to be fairly big.
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