Using only Book 2 Starships -- Effect on Imperium

[GypsyComet]

the time a Battle Cruiser shows up to confront the PCs' Fat Trader, we'd be roleplaying out the situation rather than having a standup fight!

Which is a good thing, but needs to be backed up by real punch. The 12 turrets on a Kinunir will eventually carve up a 4 turret pirate, but the ability to one-punch a smaller ship with a dedicated bay weapon (per the 2000 ton Zhodani Vlezhdatl from FASA) is what brings out the white flags in a timely fashion.

That said, if you want your naval combat to be lengthy attrition matches instead of knock-out shots, stick with turrets.

The starship ratio of sizes presented in Book 2 (as opposed to implied, per Rob's post) is still from 100 tons to 5,000 tons, or 50:1. That handily encompasses most modern sea-going craft, and if you extend it to the shore-huggers (aka Subcraft), that ratio goes to 250:1 With a small craft design system bolted on (I recommend the one from Space Gamer #40-ish) you have a lot of room to design in.

I would still recommend skimming HG and later editions for tools to add in, just to allow for more variety. Drives-Fuel-Cargo-Staterooms do not provide a lot of axes for innovation after a while.

Top-of-the-head recommendations include pop-turrets, fixed mounts, drop tanks and fuel purification (CT), Externally-mounted subcraft changing overall displacement and the subcraft mounting options to go with (TNE, T4, MGT), labs, workshops, and sick bays (several places), fuel "skimmer" options (T5), boarding tubes (MGT) and others I'm sure I've forgotten. None of these damage the small ship/small weapon universe of Book 2, and the subcraft mounting treatment actually explains (and originally arose from) the classic Type R.

 

[creativehum]

Why should there be a Tech Level limit on hull size? The Great Eastern was built in the 1860s as a 25,000 ton ship, which was too big for the available cargo, but was within the technology of the period. For ocean-going vessels, you could argue for some sort of limit on ship size using wrought iron for the ship's hull, but given the Great Eastern, it is going to be fairly big.

You understand I'm not arguing for this.
I'm following up something Aramis posted.
But I look forward to seeing the two of you have it out.
I just want to know what he's referencing.

 

[mike wightman]

Aramis,

Can you point me to the TL-Hull limits in the books?
I'm finding the TL-Drive limits in the Tech table, but can't find the limits on hull. Thanks!

There is no limit to hull size as such.

The limit is the size of hull the drives can move, and the TL of the computer needed to run those drives in some cases.

eg at TL9 maximum drive is D, so the biggest hull that can be moved is 800t, by TL10 the maximum drive is H so 1000t is the maximum (although personally I think it should be 1600t since the 800t hull is performance 2 so it could carry an extra 800t and still have performance of 1). TL 11 has a maximum of 2000t, as does TL12 (although again the drives look like 2400t could be moved), TL13 is 3000t, TL14 is the same (with an optional limit of 3600t), TL15 the maximum is 5000t or 12000t if you go with the extrapolation method.

 

[Quint]

Why should there be a Tech Level limit on hull size? The Great Eastern was built in the 1860s as a 25,000 ton ship, which was too big for the available cargo, but was within the technology of the period. For ocean-going vessels, you could argue for some sort of limit on ship size using wrought iron for the ship's hull, but given the Great Eastern, it is going to be fairly big.

Well, understanding that this is using DGP flavor text, it isn't simply a matter of building a bathtub (at least for ships, not boats). It is also a matter of being able to properly build the right lanthanum grid through the hull of the ship. I see no problem in saying that there are size limits based on tech level (and the skill/knowledge needed to properly do so).

The real question would be deciding on a size limit for *boats* rather than ships, and how that impacts naval power (though, to be fair, it is the same question in a large-ship universe).

D.

 

[creativehum]

Mike, thanks.

 

[mike wightman]

No probs, I have been playing around with LBB2 ship design for an awfully long time - it is still my favourite

 

[aramis]

Aramis,

Can you point me to the TL-Hull limits in the books?
I'm finding the TL-Drive limits in the Tech table, but can't find the limits on hull. Thanks!

The hull limits are a byproduct of the drive limits on the tech level table in book 3 - the two page spread shows which drives are allowed at which TL's.

You can build bigger, but you don't have drives capable of moving them.

 

[Timerover51]

The hull limits are a byproduct of the drive limits on the tech level table in book 3 - the two page spread shows which drives are allowed at which TL's.

You can build bigger, but you don't have drives capable of moving them.

This is from the Starter Traveller book, purchased from DriveThruRPG, and on my computer, which makes it more readily accessible than my LBB 3. This is just to confirm that Starter and LBB 3 are using the same table, without either agreeing or disagreeing with the data.

Tech Level 9, Drives A-D, hulls up to 800 Tons

Tech Level 10, Drives E-H, hulls up to 1000 Tons

Tech Level 11, Drives J-K, hulls up to 2000 Tons

Tech Level 12, Drives L-N, hulls up to 2000 Tons

Tech Level 13, Drives P-Q, hulls up to 3000 Tons

Tech Level 14, Drives R-U, hulls up to 3000 Tons

Tech Level 15, All Drives, hulls up to 5000 Tons

Examining the Drive Table, again in Starter Traveller, the following appears:

Jump Drives: Mass increases in increments of 5 Tons, cost increases in increments of 10 MCr. Beginning mass for Drive A is 10 tons.

Maneuver Drives: Mass increases in increments of 2 tons, cost increases in increments of 4 MCr. Beginning mass for Drive A is 1 ton.

Power Plant: Mass increases in increments of 3 tons, cost increases in increments of 8 MCr. Beginning mass for Power Plant A is 4 tons.

Again, I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with the published parameters, I am simply confirming that Starter Traveller and LBB 2 and 3 are the same.

 

[aramis]

They are the same tables as CT-'81, Timerover.
The CT-77 drive performance table has a few differences in drive J and Drives X,Y & Z.
Those changes don't affect the resulting limits on functional ship hulls.

 

[Timerover51]

Thank you, Aramis.

The only comment that I will make is that to be somewhat consistent, the mass for Maneuver Drive A should be 3 Tons, not 1 Ton.

 

[aramis]

Thank you, Aramis.

The only comment that I will make is that to be somewhat consistent, the mass for Maneuver Drive A should be 3 Tons, not 1 Ton.

MD A is 1 Ton, and MD B is 3 tons, in each of Bk2-77, Bk2-81, TTB, and ST... Apparently, the first "chunk" of MD is cheaper in concept. It also makes "matched sets" 5+(10 per letter)... AAA=15, BBB=25, CCC=35, DDD=45, etc.

 

[creativehum]

THe Bk2 stock designs aren't "THE designs."... there's room for some variety.

But there are some interesting hiccups... note that the performance by pure book 2 is due to drive letter limitations, and artificially lowering the performance of drives W-Z in 1000-3000Td hulls from what would be formulaic.

And some interesting tidbits about hulls and TL's at which they happen...

J3 is available at TL9. J4 at TL 10. J5 at TL 13, and J6 at TL 14 or 15... but only in specific hulls.

It makes a huge difference in how the setting works when TL9 has J3 performance.

Also, under Bk2-'77 you can use a 1/bis for any jump distance.

You may want to change prices for freight to Cr1000 per parsec, not per jump; if you do, there are hulls that can turn a profit (on pure cargo designs) to J6, assuming they fill.

CT-81, those hulls:
J1, J2: 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000
J3: 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000
J4: 800, 1000, 2000, 3000
J5, J6: 2000

CT 77, those hulls
J1, J2: 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000
J3: 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000
J4: 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000
J5: 800, 1000, 2000
J6: 2000

And, hulls are effectively limited by TL
TL 9: 100-800
TL 10: 1000
TL 11: 2000
TL 13: 3000
TL 15: 5000

Hi Aramis,

First, thanks for typing all this up.

Second, I'm looking for some clarification on things I'm not understanding after looking over the material. I'm sure this is a lack of understanding something on my part. So I can't see what I'm not seeing. I'm not challenging you with any of this. I'm checking back in with you for some help.

First, for the data on the limits on Jump capability per hull size:

CT-81, those hulls:
J1, J2: 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000
J3: 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000
J4: 800, 1000, 2000, 3000
J5, J6: 2000

I notice you don't list 100 ton ships, even though it seems as if 100 ton ships can have J-drives of 2, 4, or 6, as long as the required computer tech is available. Obviously I'm missing something here. What?

Also: your chart says J3 are available for 400 ton hulls at the low end. But according to the Drive Potential Chart I'm looking at (1981) I see J-3 available for 200 ton hulls. (The same question holds for several other hull-drive matches which I see on the drive potential chart but are not in your listing. I'll assume if I get this one example sorted out, all else will fall into place.)

Finally, you wrote: "J5 at TL 13..." But if one has Tech Level 11, one has available:
Computer Model 5 (which allows J-5)
Drives J-K
A K-drive in a 400 ton ship with a Model 5 Computer allows a J-5.

Again, I know I'm not seeing what you're seeing here. But if you have a moment to explain, I'd greatly appreciate it.

My own guess is that using such drives in these size hulls leaves insufficient tonnage remaining for fuel, basic controls or life support. So, even though the drives could move such hulls, it isn't practical for a variety of reasons.

But I haven't gone into the guts of starship design yet, so I don't know for sure. And, again, that's just a guess.

 

[mike wightman]

Under 81 rules the jump drive requires a power plant of equal rating. Power plant fuel is 10t per power plant number.

So a 100t ship with jump 4 requires 40t for jump fuel, 40t for power plant fuel , 20t for bridge - no space left for actual drives, crew etc.

 

[aramis]

Hi Aramis,

First, thanks for typing all this up.

Second, I'm looking for some clarification on things I'm not understanding after looking over the material. I'm sure this is a lack of understanding something on my part. So I can't see what I'm not seeing. I'm not challenging you with any of this. I'm checking back in with you for some help.

First, for the data on the limits on Jump capability per hull size:

I notice you don't list 100 ton ships, even though it seems as if 100 ton ships can have J-drives of 2, 4, or 6, as long as the required computer tech is available. Obviously I'm missing something here. What?

Also: your chart says J3 are available for 400 ton hulls at the low end. But according to the Drive Potential Chart I'm looking at (1981) I see J-3 available for 200 ton hulls. (The same question holds for several other hull-drive matches which I see on the drive potential chart but are not in your listing. I'll assume if I get this one example sorted out, all else will fall into place.)

Finally, you wrote: "J5 at TL 13..." But if one has Tech Level 11, one has available:
Computer Model 5 (which allows J-5)
Drives J-K
A K-drive in a 400 ton ship with a Model 5 Computer allows a J-5.

Again, I know I'm not seeing what you're seeing here. But if you have a moment to explain, I'd greatly appreciate it.

My own guess is that using such drives in these size hulls leaves insufficient
tonnage remaining for fuel, basic controls or life support. So, even though the drives could move such hulls, it isn't practical for a variety of reasons. But I haven't gone into the guts of starship design yet, so I don't know for sure. And, again, that's just a guess.

J2 is the only drive that can work in the '81 edition in a 100 ton hull.
J3 is permissible to some, not to others, interpreting the RAW, by only allocating for 30Td of fuel and only using the Jump-3 program.

CT-77	CT-81
100 Hull 020 bridge 040 Fuel-Jump 010 Fuel-PP 015 JD B=4 001 MD A=1 004 PP A=2 008 Crew SRx (PE) 002 Model/2bis†	100 Hull 020 bridge 040 Fuel-Jump 040 Fuel-PP 015 JD B=4 001 MD A=1 007 PP B=4 008 Crew SRx (PE) 004 Model/4‡
No payload	overtonnage by 35

[tc=2]J4 100Td[/tc] [tc=3]† Needs 5 space to run Jump 4 and Navigate programs
‡ Has to equal or exceed J-Number AND as †[/tc]

[tr]

So, technically, you can build a J4 ship at TL9, but it's only good in civilized areas and only good for carrying news. It's an almost non-broken X-boat. But you can't even run Library Data with that...

Note that J5 requires the ability to run Jump-5 and Navigate programs simultaneously.

The 400 Ton hull is useful with Drive K - remember, Drive K is TL 11.
The model 5 computer is TL 11
You can build it under CT-81 as a Jump 5. Under CT 77, you can squeak in a 200Td J5 at TL10, but not under CT-81.

CT-77	CT-81	CT-77	CT-81
400 Hull 020 Bridge 200 JFuel 010 PFuel 055 JD K=5 003 MD B=1 007 PP B=1 002 Model 2bis 020 Crew SRx5 PNEEM 083 payload	400 Hull 020 Bridge 200 JFuel 050 PFuel 055 JD K=5 003 MD A=1 031 PP K=5 005 Model 5 020 Crew SRx5 PNEEM 016 payload	200 Hull 020 Bridge 100 JFuel 010 PFuel 030 JD E=5 001 MD A=1 004 PP A=1 016 PNEM 002 Model/2bis 017 Payload	200 Hull 020 Bridge 100 JFuel 050 PFuel 030 JD E=5 001 MD A=1 004 PP E=5 016 PNEM 005 Model/5 000 Payload

 

[creativehum]

So, one can have a J-5 ship at Tech Level 11... it just isn't very efficient or practical. (Which is more than reasonable -- and also what Mike said).

The limits you typed up in your original post take into account space and efficiency of potential design, dismissing those that don't make much sense.

Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[aramis]

So, one can have a J-5 ship at Tech Level 11... it just isn't very efficient or practical. (Which is more than reasonable -- and also what Mike said).

The limits you typed up in your original post take into account space and efficiency of potential design, dismissing those that don't make much sense.

Am I understanding this correctly?

No. Only the 100Td ships got that. Namely because J4 is pretty useless in a 100Td, but you can do it at TL 9.... but you cannot get J5 in a 100Td hull. Nor J6. The others are based upon actual Can't build it. I left out 100Td because it's not on my econ spreadsheets...

The 200Td J4 is not listed because I forgot about the dodge with 2bis under CT-77.

 

[creativehum]

Thanks for answering.

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting anyone was going to cram a J5 Drive into a 100 ton hull.

You originally wrote:
"And some interesting tidbits about hulls and TL's at which they happen...
J3 is available at TL9. J4 at TL 10. J5 at TL 13, and J6 at TL 14 or 15... but only in specific hulls."

I was curious about the gap over TL 11 for J5. So I wrote:
"Finally, you wrote: "J5 at TL 13..." But if one has Tech Level 11, one has available:
Computer Model 5 (which allows J-5)
Drives J-K
A K-drive in a 400 ton ship with a Model 5 Computer allows a J-5."

Now, this is me bleary eyed in they morning doing this by hand for the first time ever. But I slapped together a 400 ton ship that looks like this:

• 400 ton hull
• Jump Drive-K 55 tons
• Maneuver Drive-D 7 tons
• Power Plant-K 31 tons
• Fuel: Jump 160 tons; Manuever 20 tons
• Bridge: 20 tons
• Computer 5 tons
• 4 state rooms 20 tons total
• Fire Control for two turrets 2 tons total
• Cargo 60 tons

Now, this might be a useless ship. Moreover, I might have missed something in the design process that actually busts the math.

But as far as I can see, one can actually build a J5 ship at Tech 11. So I was following up with your statement about J5 arriving at TL 13 in certain hulls to see what I was missing.

My guess is there's an underlying assumption on your part that I'm not seeing. Or I'm missing something obvious. But it's a blind spot of one kind or another for me and I'm looking for clarification.

Thanks!

 

[mike wightman]

There is something wrong with your fuel calculation.

Jump 5 requires 50% of the hull, 200t, and the power plant 5 requires 50t = 250t fuel in total.

Four staterooms is 16t by the way

I get this:
20t bridge
5t computer
55t jump K
31t pp K
3t md B (smallest for a 400t hull)
24t stateroom (PNEEEM) - I make it 3 engineers for that much engineering machinery
250t fuel (200 jump, 50t pp)
12 t for whatever else you want to fit.

So useful for scouting and courier work, useless for merchant or ship combat activities.

For combat vessels you will end up with jump 3 to 4 allowing you to max out maneuver drive and weapons (6g 200t hulls, 5g 400t hulls).

Your big ships are going to be jump 1 or 2 with similar maneuver performance, but they will be able to carry lots of small craft and use the double fire program for their laser turrets.

 

[creativehum]

Right. Like I said, bleary-eyed. Here I was yammering on about J5 -- and I plugged in 4 for my drive potential values.

Thank goodness for mistakes. We learn from them.

Okay, ignoring my idiocy for the moment, here is a ship with J5 at TL 11.

I think the point is that though one can build on it is utterly foolish to do so in practice, since transporting four crew and 12 tons of cargo per jump just isn't efficient. Yes?

[A quick note: I'm only using the 1981 edition for the rules. If it saves you time to only refer to that edition, please do.]

Mike: what does PNEEEM stand for?

 

[mike wightman]

It's the crew shorthand - Pilot Navigator Engineer Engineer Engineer Medic